AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-06-10, 00:07   Link #61
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJLowrider View Post
I'm not sure I have much I can contribute to this thread other than listing some series I know of that are decidedly not sexist towards women.

Shuffle! - It was mentioned earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. The male protagonist didn't choose the doormat homemaker, the busty rich chick, the pushy energetic girl or the jailbait. He chose the lively, independent girl who never once overtly demanded his attention and never really pined over him either unlike the others. Feminism in my harem anime? It's more likely than you think.
My two gripes with Shuffle is that the male protagonist DIDN'T get off his lazy ass and actually help in the home no matter what the "doormat homemaker" wanted, and why did the "busty rich chick" ever NEED to be domestic to even be IN THE RUNNING for his attention...

__________________



CrowKenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 00:15   Link #62
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Please...lets not raise that spectre again.... though I have to say that was a rather clever way to tag the series elements.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 01:46   Link #63
Mushi
Hopeless Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On bended knee asking Belldandy to marry me
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
My two gripes with Shuffle is that the male protagonist DIDN'T get off his lazy ass and actually help in the home no matter what the "doormat homemaker" wanted
Why would he need to if she's perfectly content to do it all and that's what he's been used to most of his life?

Quote:
...and why did the "busty rich chick" ever NEED to be domestic to even be IN THE RUNNING for his attention...
Because girls are competitive in vying for a guys attention and everyone knows that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. And it also makes for some comic relief and mild romantic drama as she struggles to overcome her domestic challenges.

Why did Shana need to learn how to cook? Same reasons... d'uh.

I like Kaede. I thought she was sweet and never once thought of her as being a doormat. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't ever remember Rin treating her like one either. And Kaede's behavior becomes a reason for him to change later on, anyhow, so it actually serves a purpose.

So what if the protag never helped with chores, or the rich girl wants to learn how to cook? It's Shuffle! FFS! It's supposed to be full of contrivances, cliches, fan service, and... what? Cute girls doing nothing but being cute and being objects of desire. OMFG, Imagine that! And Shuffle! is absolutely wonderful for doing just that.

Seriously now, if you want to look for examples where sexism isn't an obvious element in a genre, stay away from harem.

That's not to say that harem girls don't have character development outside of their obvious roles in the story, because there are many series where the girls have very compelling and heart touching experiences and personal growth... usually because of the protags caring influence, whether it's "weak and indecisive" or not.
__________________

Last edited by Mushi; 2009-06-10 at 02:19.
Mushi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 10:06   Link #64
DJLowrider
Ahou ga
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
. . . the male protagonist DIDN'T get off his lazy ass and actually help in the home no matter what the "doormat homemaker" wanted . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushi View Post
Why would he need to if she's perfectly content to do it all and that's what he's been used to most of his life?
What Mushi says is true, but there's a bit more to it. This point is actually covered in the series during Kaede's Arc. The truth of it all is...

Spoiler for Major spoilers for Shuffle!:


Quote:
I like Kaede. I thought she was sweet and never once thought of her as being a doormat. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't ever remember Rin treating her like one either. And Kaede's behavior becomes a reason for him to change later on, anyhow, so it actually serves a purpose.
I refer to Kaede as a doormat not because of how Rin overtly treats her, but because of how she treats herself. She makes sure Rin has everything he needs to get through the day and barely remembers to make her own lunch. She keeps medicine on hand for him if he's feeling bad but still forces herself to get up and try to cook when she's sick as a dog. And then there's her breakdown during her story arc in the series. As for Rin, his is a sin of omission really. He may not abuse Kaede's good graces, he certainly doesn't try to change things until it becomes crystal clear to him that such a life can't persist.

Just to try and bring this back to the original topic, though, Kaede is a decent example of the identity crisis women in Japanese society have been facing in recent years. So used to being domestic by default for so long that once things change for whatever reason, be it expectations or personal situations or what have you, that they really must struggle to find a new identity. It's not always easy to get outside of your comfort zone, after all, but it is necessary if you want to grow as any kind of person.
DJLowrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 13:10   Link #65
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Um... yeah, can we de-Shuffle this, please? Unless one can stick to the sexism/feminist aspects of it as an example.

Harem, almost by definition, is about a bunch of girls hoping a particular guy will choose them. Rarely do the girls have their own vectors unless the story has been remixed like those where the guy is really just helping to solve a problem for each girl (Kanon), or the plot is a triangle (Canvas 2) or a straight 1:1 love story (Lamune). Actually, my favorite ero adaptations are the ones that significantly remix the story to jump out of the "serial choose the girl" route (e.g. KKPR, which was hated by many fans of the eroge).

The stories that most seem to pass my "sexist BS" filter are the ones either told from a female POV or show the women in the story as having their own goals and directions in life.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 13:29   Link #66
DJLowrider
Ahou ga
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 38
There's a few mecha anime that have pretty strong and capable female characters. I mentioned Macross and Gunbuster already, but you could probably throw Gurren Lagann in with them as well. Yoko is the very picture of a strong, liberated woman who takes a backseat to no man. The genre may be dominated by male protagonists, but the ladies certainly fight the good fight as well.
DJLowrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 14:25   Link #67
petran79
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The funny thing is... I was given that game with that cover as a child and distinctly remember looking at the box one day and wondering why the women weren't playing as well.... small epiphanies at age 10 in 1967. Also the year Star Trek first aired and we encountered the idea of women astronauts. Also... apparently only "white folk" played games going by the covers of most games of the time.
At that time too in Japan men were working and women, grandparents and children stayed at home watching TV.

For this you would also have to include Japanese media in general, not just animation. But if commercial animation (not comics), is done mostly by guys, even when it is supposed to be for female audience, then gender is an issue.

Considering that in Japan, in contrast to China and Korea, women had more freedom throughout history since they were not that much influenced by Confucianism (eg Chinese women had foot bindings) and that many Chinese and Korean revolutionary women found refuge in Japan, I would say that anime supposed to represent medieval Japanese culture, does give a false impression.

For the rest of anime it would be better to say to what kind of audience it is made.
petran79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 14:41   Link #68
coren
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJLowrider View Post
I'm not sure I have much I can contribute to this thread other than listing some series I know of that are decidedly not sexist towards women.

Sailor Moon - Without a doubt the most well-known magical girl series of all time. Is it sexist? Only if you think teenaged girls don't actually fall all over themselves over boys or older/mature young men. That set aside, the core cast of female characters are all pretty empowered and Usagi herself goes through a lot of changes over the course of the series. The third series, Sailor Moon S, really highlights this.

Boys Over Flowers - Tsukushi Makino is one of my favorite female characters of all time and for good reason. Despite all the crap she puts up with she rises to each challenge she faces and gets through it all. And it's definitely not all for the sake of her would-be romantic interests.

Bubblegum Crisis OVA - There might be a hint of sexism early on in this series, but it is quickly and deftly dealt with. Priss is an incredibly independent and fierce female character and the other ladies are nothing to sneeze at either.

Shuffle! - It was mentioned earlier in this thread but it bears repeating. The male protagonist didn't choose the doormat homemaker, the busty rich chick, the pushy energetic girl or the jailbait. He chose the lively, independent girl who never once overtly demanded his attention and never really pined over him either unlike the others. Feminism in my harem anime? It's more likely than you think.

Twelve Kingdoms - I really shouldn't have to explain this one.
I found Twelve Kingdoms quite interesting to this discussion, since from what I remember women don't actually get pregnant in this anime, instead babies grow on trees or some such. Admittedly this is rather weird, but it does explain why the sexes are more equal that would normally be realistic in a low-technology setting.
coren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 15:08   Link #69
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by petran79 View Post
Considering that in Japan, in contrast to China and Korea, women had more freedom throughout history since they were not that much influenced by Confucianism (eg Chinese women had foot bindings) and that many Chinese and Korean revolutionary women found refuge in Japan, I would say that anime supposed to represent medieval Japanese culture, does give a false impression.
OTOH... I watched a documentary last night about the preparations for the Hong Kong New Years festival. The whole thing is run by a woman and it was quite interesting watching how she gave directives to her subordinates (often men). There seemed to be many women in positions of authority throughout the organizations, suppliers, and such. I have to qualify that with the realization that this was an 'arts/craft' event where women are probably considered to have an edge - but it really was quite a large quasi-military operation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coren View Post
I found Twelve Kingdoms quite interesting to this discussion, since from what I remember women don't actually get pregnant in this anime, instead babies grow on trees or some such. Admittedly this is rather weird, but it does explain why the sexes are more equal that would normally be realistic in a low-technology setting.
Okay, now you've got ME interested in Twelve Kingdoms... that concept totally undercuts any rationale for "keeping da wimmen in da kitchen". Interesting.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 15:27   Link #70
GuidoHunter_Toki
Wiggle Your Big Toe
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 24
Ah yes Twelve Kingdoms. If you are looking for a strong female lead and a nice fantasy thats defenitely one to look too.

A big element of the story is in fact of one of the characters named Yoko, learning how to assert herself and basically leave behind her sexist upbringings. In the start Yoko fits the typical "nice girl" card; Polite, obedient, and well mannered. A good portion of the story early on deals heavily with Yoko's change from a meek child to a fierce warrior. She also grows in her maturity, being very empathetic towards those around her and articulately thinking about her actions.

Now I've never watched the anime, so these insights come from my reading of the manga.
__________________

Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2009-06-10 at 16:38.
GuidoHunter_Toki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 17:46   Link #71
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
So how do you define the general trend of a medium? With the same broad brush that would stereotype a culture?

I prefer, really, to work on some less cumbersome levels. The specific work, perhaps, or the genre. Though I do find it amusing that some asserts that the harem genre is somehow a feminist, or even anti-male, one. Good one, that. I almost bought your bridge to Alaska.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coren
I found Twelve Kingdoms quite interesting to this discussion, since from what I remember women don't actually get pregnant in this anime, instead babies grow on trees or some such. Admittedly this is rather weird, but it does explain why the sexes are more equal that would normally be realistic in a low-technology setting.
I'd also add that since kingship is mandated by Heaven and that it seems rather gender and age-blind, that should help balance things since the very top of the social pyramid is gender-blind. Male chauvinists shouldn't expect much favor from a queen, for example.

It still looks largely like a traditional society in many other aspects, though. Queens fight wars but I don't see (m)any female common grunts, and the caretakers of the Kirin are all female.

Of course, Twelve Kingdoms is a strange world in general. The presence of an actual Heaven tends to shift the fictional social dynamics around, and supernatural creatures -- sentients, mind -- don't necessarily adhere to the modern real life concepts of individual choices and like. Some are born to do what they are meant to do and take every pleasure in it, like the motherly creature that's born to take care of the Kirin. Oh, and there's the element of fantastic racism, as a certain Western sage () once said, "[b]lack and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on the green." Sexism tends to be less of a concern at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Okay, now you've got ME interested in Twelve Kingdoms... that concept totally undercuts any rationale for "keeping da wimmen in da kitchen". Interesting.
Wait...am I right that this implies that you haven't watched Twelve Kingdoms yet?

Jii-san, go watch it now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki
Now I've never watched the anime, so these insights come from my reading of the manga.
It's the same for the anime. That's why most fans of the anime just tell new watchers straight out to tough it for the first few episodes and that "it gets better" afterwards. She's rubs you really wrong for the first episode or so with her super meekness and her submissiveness to a chauvinist father (the bad side of the much-propagandized and definitely sexist yamato nadeshiko ideal), really angsty for the next six, understandable but still depressing, and then it's all upwards from there.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 17:59   Link #72
Darklord_bg
Hallowed Redeemer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Well when people hear "sexism" they'll usually think of the femal side of the spectrum. However, the fact of the matter is that every character in any anime (or any form of entertainment) has a displayable link to some form of stereotype or critcism; Its unavoidable. Whenever someone creates something thats suppossed to pertain to a certain audience, you'll always get those "questionable" elements that come with it.

To use as an example, DBZ. A series/manga made for boys, thus it has strong male characters. Now this series shoves the females aside as support characters in most cases, thus the apparent issue of sexism arises. Now I can't be sure whether it was intentional or not, but lets just say for this examples sake that they structured the show that way to pertain to its target audience of males.

I believe they're playing towards a demographic more than anything else.
You bring a good point about the demographic issue, but as a guy I find it harder and harder to find shows targeted at men in which men are portrayed positively or take a center stage to women. During this season, for instance, Sengoku Basara is the only such show, in which clearly the men are dominant.

Also, despite being targeted at a male demographic, DragonballZ, Naruto, One Piece has the main characters completely at the mercy of their female companions. It doesn't matter that they are so tough that they can take the physical punishment. The beating up is most of all an act of establishing control and superiority rather than a desire to actually hurt someone permanently. It's like those shows are trying to establish that girls have complete control over the guys and can beat them up whenever they like and the guys cannot do anything about it - like your mother can smack you (or at least - punish you/ground you for those who disapprove of physical disciplining) and you cannot really retort. I don't think this view is very favorable of guys in anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town View Post
There are plenty of shows where the guys aren't treated like that. Or at least better than their female counterparts.
Ayatsuri Sakon, Natsume Yuujinchou, Hime-chan's Ribbon, King of Bandit Jing, Meine Liebe, Night Head Genesis, Persona -Trinity Soul-, Yakitate!! Japan, Uta Kata.
I'm sorry, I haven't seen any of those - I can't watch every show that comes out. I'm sure there are other examples of shows like that, but for most commercially successful shows and popular ones (like here the ones who have their own sub forums), women are treated better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town View Post
This of course ignores the fact that violent tsundere/henpecker are both archetypes which are decidedly anti-feminist. The purpose of these archetypes are to show that women are annoying, unable to express their feelings and ultimately just exist so that they may become annoying housewives. They are also there to show that even in petty female created arguments men are capable of taking the high moral ground.
I would be OK with that perspective if I see users condemn the female characters for being violent more often than condemn the male character for being wussy. Just to give you an example - in CLANNAD Kyou and Tomoyo beat up Sunohara on a regular basis, and yet they are received very well, while Sunohara is targeted as a wuss. You won't find a single post here labeling any of those girls as a violent bitch, but you'll find plenty saying the guy is weak and a wuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
Though I do find it amusing that some asserts that the harem genre is somehow a feminist, or even anti-male, one. Good one, that. I almost bought your bridge to Alaska.
I assume you are referring to me here. I never said the harem genre was feminist, but it is definitely anti-male. Think about it - there are plenty of positively-portrayed and received female characters in harem shows, even though I admit that there are many that are submissive. However, there are almost no male characters in harem shows that have positive qualities, despite being nice, and that are popular with the fans. Come on, one of the most popular phrases on a harem show forums is "[insert male lead name] must die!" How is that not anti-male?
__________________
Darklord_bg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 18:24   Link #73
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
I assume you are referring to me here. I never said the harem genre was feminist, but it is definitely anti-male. Think about it - there are plenty of positively-portrayed and received female characters in harem shows, even though I admit that there are many that are submissive. However, there are almost no male characters in harem shows that have positive qualities, despite being nice, and that are popular with the fans. Come on, one of the most popular phrases on a harem show forums is "[insert male lead name] must die!" How is that not anti-male?
Have you never heard of the Insertable Harem Guy concept? Viewer displacement? Jealousy, even?

For that matter, despite all his negative qualities which you point as evidence of anti-male tendencies, why is it that the Total Loser still gets the girl in the end? Heck, make it gets the girls with the plural even. I can spin it just as easily as you do to point out that this validates that the man -- no matter how pathetic -- is still the gravitational center in which these exaggeratedly extraordinary girls revolve around, the sun to their stars, the center of their universe, thanks to no effort on his part. All because he is a guy, and somewhat "kind" (sometimes not even that). The girls become shallow -- more shallow than the guy -- for liking him, and their extraordinary talents and characteristics are only there to enrich his life, making them more attractive to him. They are characters, but their purpose is service to another. All their dreams, their motivations, their individual personalities are tailored to his needs.

Replace "him" with "the viewer" as necessary, in line with the Insertable Harem Guy concept. If one expects real life women to serve him with such fervor, and to maintain such a fašade of perfection, then it becomes a sexist attitude.


Although, a caveat: I treat the harem genre for what it is: fanservice. Sexism in fanservice is a different issue than the inherent sexism shown by that rather disgusting picture of the Battleship boardgame, the latter of which tends to be far more harmful.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 18:30   Link #74
Darklord_bg
Hallowed Redeemer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Have you never heard of the Insertable Harem Guy concept? Viewer displacement? Jealousy, even?

For that matter, despite all his negative qualities which you point as evidence of anti-male tendencies, why is it that the Total Loser still gets the girl in the end? Heck, make it gets the girls with the plural even. I can spin it just as easily as you do to point out that this validates that the man -- no matter how pathetic -- is still the gravitational center in which these exaggeratedly extraordinary girls revolve around, the sun to their stars, the center of their universe, thanks to no effort on his part. All because he is a guy, and somewhat "kind" (sometimes not even that). The girls become shallow -- more shallow than the guy -- for liking him, and their extraordinary talents and characteristics are only there to enrich his life, making them more attractive to him. They are characters, but their purpose is service to another. All their dreams, their motivations, their individual personalities are tailored to his needs.

Replace "him" with "the viewer" as necessary, in line with the Insertable Harem Guy concept.
To me, the mere fact that they always make the guy "a total loser" is proof of anti-male sentiments. As if real-world guys are like that - totally clueless, talentless, with no positive qualities despite being nice (sometimes not even that)? So what if he gets one or many girls in the end (sometimes he doesn't)? The whole audience wants him DEAD - not just alone but DEAD. What kind of character does it take to invoke such hatred? How is a character who inspires only negative responses in the viewers supposed to represent a positive view of the male gender?

Despite being in love with the guy for some unknown reason, the girls in such shows have positive qualities. The guy has almost none.
__________________
Darklord_bg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 18:35   Link #75
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
You just completely did not respond to my argument at all, did you? I get what you mean from your very first post on this topic already, no need to repeat it with a different phrasing.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 18:41   Link #76
Darklord_bg
Hallowed Redeemer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
You just completely did not respond to my argument at all, did you? I get what you mean from your very first post on this topic already, no need to repeat it with a different phrasing.
Well, you did not respond to my argument either.

If I understood you correctly, you have a problem with girls falling for a worthless guy, which I agree can be interpreted as a flaw in their character, although, as they say - love is blind. So, the girls have this flaw, but you have to admit, most of them have distinct personalities and positive qualities. Just being in love with the guy does not erase those.

To make is simpler, which is worse:

Portraying girls with generally positive qualities with a flaw of being in love with a worthless guy?

or

Portraying a guy who is worthless?

It seems like a no-brainer to me.
__________________
Darklord_bg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 19:10   Link #77
Mushi
Hopeless Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On bended knee asking Belldandy to marry me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Just to give you an example - in CLANNAD Kyou and Tomoyo beat up Sunohara on a regular basis, and yet they are received very well, while Sunohara is targeted as a wuss. You won't find a single post here labeling any of those girls as a violent bitch, but you'll find plenty saying the guy is weak and a wuss.
My first impression of Kyou, when she storms into the room yelling and throwing a book, for absolutely no good reason, was "Damn, what an irrational bitch!" It took a long time for her to win any degree of favor in my eyes.

Sunohara a wuss? LOL. He may be dense, but he's assertive and aggressive most of the time. Just because he doesn't know when to give up, doesn't make him a wuss. And there's After Story... taking on the soccer team to defend his little sister's honor... hello? Using Sunohara as an example for wimpy male = fail.

Beautiful babes who kick ass is part of the fantasy element in many stories. It's a contradiction to reality that makes for good amusement and entertainment. Having a fall guy who gets beat up by the beautiful babes is par for the course in romantic comedy and should never be taken too seriously.
__________________
Mushi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 21:35   Link #78
tarito
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
IMO any work created for men to ogle at beautiful women is sexist and decidedly not anti-male. The main character is just as stupid or wimpy as possible so the male viewership does not feel resentment towards him. What guy wants to watch a pretty playboy get all the pure, sexy, beautiful girls to adore him and cook his lunch forever? I'm sure that kind of character would be despised even more than wimpy Keitaro!
However, since moe is, after all, created for a male audience, I'm not that bothered by the sexism as long as we all accept it's wish fullfilment and not much else. I don't like to see the female cast in those shows be presented as examples of empowered women,though. I mean, if their whole point is to be desirable in one way or another, that's not exactly empowering.

What actually bugs me is the fact that shoujo, being created by females for females, can sometimes be even more offensive than standard moe fare. How many shoujo characters do we know who are abused, forced into sex or almost forced, just to make them dramatic heroines, or show how the guys desire them oh so much? In fact, a lot of shoujo manga depicts sex in a way that it's only "proper" if the girl kinda acts like she doesn't really want it (but kinda does). I'm not even sure if everyday Japanese culture is to blame here, since many Japanese girls and women today seem to have sex rather freely, yet in manga it's mostly the "bad girls" who are shown to visit love hotels with the guys.
Not to mention, a lot of shoujo protagonists are weak-willed, ditzy and sometimes even stupid (in a teehee-but-I'm-still-cute-way, see Usagi).
I wish female shoujo mangaka would pay a little more attention to these things. They are some of the few women capable of shaping Japanese girls' views of themselves, yet, often, all they with that power is reinforce some of the dumbest gender roles.

With all that said, in the west we have a somewhat distorted view of anime, because most titles that are brought over here are niche otaku stuff that's ripe with fanservice and ecchiness. Many long-standing classics of anime are actually surprisingly feminist, and I'm thankful I had those shape my worldview growing up in the 80s, rather than the horrible, horrible American cartoons that existed back then.

Some examples:

- Rose of Versailles (Utena was based off this)
- the very popular World Masterpiece Theatre series created by Nippon Animation, that turned works like Anne of Green Gables, Little Princess Sara, Little Women and many others into anime
- Attack No. 1, an insanely popular and influential shoujo title from the 70s about a Girls' Volleyball team - Lucky Star references this in the Volleyball ep
- Movies by Miyazaki, of course
- Chibi-Maruko-chan

And some others I can't think of. Anyway, these were all great and I recommend them.

Last edited by tarito; 2009-06-10 at 21:47.
tarito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 22:34   Link #79
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Have you never heard of the Insertable Harem Guy concept? Viewer displacement? Jealousy, even?

For that matter, despite all his negative qualities which you point as evidence of anti-male tendencies, why is it that the Total Loser still gets the girl in the end? Heck, make it gets the girls with the plural even. I can spin it just as easily as you do to point out that this validates that the man -- no matter how pathetic -- is still the gravitational center in which these exaggeratedly extraordinary girls revolve around, the sun to their stars, the center of their universe, thanks to no effort on his part. All because he is a guy, and somewhat "kind" (sometimes not even that). The girls become shallow -- more shallow than the guy -- for liking him, and their extraordinary talents and characteristics are only there to enrich his life, making them more attractive to him. They are characters, but their purpose is service to another. All their dreams, their motivations, their individual personalities are tailored to his needs.

Replace "him" with "the viewer" as necessary, in line with the Insertable Harem Guy concept. If one expects real life women to serve him with such fervor, and to maintain such a fašade of perfection, then it becomes a sexist attitude.


Although, a caveat: I treat the harem genre for what it is: fanservice. Sexism in fanservice is a different issue than the inherent sexism shown by that rather disgusting picture of the Battleship boardgame, the latter of which tends to be far more harmful.
I don't watch harem genre that much but from what I seen the female character doesn't seem to be completely dominated by the male instead she seems to be superior in some cases. I mean in those harem genre don't male character gets abused, beaten up, or ridiculed by female characters?. And even though she might like the guy for shallow reason there isn't really anything wrong with that imo as people fall in love with lot of different reasons.
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-10, 22:51   Link #80
GuidoHunter_Toki
Wiggle Your Big Toe
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Well, you did not respond to my argument either.

If I understood you correctly, you have a problem with girls falling for a worthless guy, which I agree can be interpreted as a flaw in their character, although, as they say - love is blind. So, the girls have this flaw, but you have to admit, most of them have distinct personalities and positive qualities. Just being in love with the guy does not erase those.

To make is simpler, which is worse:

Portraying girls with generally positive qualities with a flaw of being in love with a worthless guy?

or

Portraying a guy who is worthless?

It seems like a no-brainer to me.
While I will not deny that one can point out sexism towards men, I tend to find, in a harem, that the boy in question usually shows over the course of the program that he is really not a dork but a caring, decent, and even gallant sort who deserves to end up with one of the girls.

Contrary to the girls who, the majority of the time, are only defined by how they feel toward the main character, or who they are in love with, rather than what they do. Even though the boys are usually potrayed as dorks never really come across too me as immature and usually seem more down to earth than most of the girls do (with all their strange antics used to "get the man"). The girls fighting over who wants the man and the guy just wants all the madness to stop. For me I usually find better qualities in the males for being sound, normal people, compared to the bizzarre and over-the-top traits of the girls that many times make me feel like they have something unscrewed in their heads. Granted of course this isn't the case with every single harem out there.

Now the same can be said about guys in that respect. If girls going gaga over guys is sexist, well there are plenty of guys that fit that role as well (ones that come across as perverted and becoming very unreasonable whenever a hot girl crosses their sights. However I find this more prominent in manga than anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
I don't watch harem genre that much but from what I seen the female character doesn't seem to be completely dominated by the male instead she seems to be superior in some cases. I mean in those harem genre don't male character gets abused, beaten up, or ridiculed by female characters?. And even though she might like the guy for shallow reason there isn't really anything wrong with that imo as people fall in love with lot of different reasons.
Well just because a female is being represented as superior, doesn't mean she is not sexist in her portrayal. Men who are abusive to women are usually seen as sexist, so I don't see why abusive women in an anime come across any different. A lot of them have overly abusive actions toward winning the love of the man they're after and are completely oblivious to the male leads usual uninterest in any of the girls in the early goings of the show.
__________________

Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2009-06-10 at 23:01.
GuidoHunter_Toki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.