AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-06-11, 14:00   Link #1221
izmosmolnar
At the end of this world
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 29
I'm not geologist either, but I would have expected the whole place in '98 differently (the mountain-scene, the dock etc.) if there was a volcano eruption there 12 years ago. I mean bare grass, wasteland, burned down forest etc.
Obviously I've never ever seen a volcano in real (thank Godness) so don't expect me to definitely know what kind of remains such a disaster leaves, and how much time Mother Nature needs to shape it back to seemingly "normal".

However let's also not forget that the police gave the stake Mammon to Ange, which means that Kyrie's corpse (the victim of the 6th twilight ep3) probably wasn't incinerated as the Stake should have been inside the body (I heavily doubt the stake form is insanely durable to endure the heat).

I'd be pretty disappointed if that "theory" is going to be true.
I know! We all should spread inconvenient, unpopular theories like that (as if we completely believe it), so eventually it's going to reach Ryukishi's ear, and he'll totally rebuke it in episode 5!
__________________
izmosmolnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 14:09   Link #1222
Squirrellord
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Send a message via MSN to Squirrellord
About the harbor:
A harbor is nothing more than a very large dock, which requires constant maintenance to keep from falling apart. It's not hard to imagine that, after 12 years of typhoons, the dock would be obliterated. I can't remember if they mention Kuwadorian's dock as intact, but it could just be that that side is easier to climb. If the police wanted to seal the island, all they'd have to do is destroy the dock, to keep thrill seekers from coming to it.

Volcano:
One thing I can't make sense of... why would Ange blame Eva for a natural disaster? Falling back to my "the mansion explodes" theory, Ange could believe she rigged the boiler, and thus hated her. However, I can't imagine Ange thinking "Oh, wow, Eva Oba-san is like, the best witch ever, being able to summon Ifrit." >_>; A volcano is not something you can use as a way to cover up a crime scene, unless you throw things into it. You cannot time and eruption. Bloody body parts would not be found. The island would be uninhabitable for days from the ash, sulfur, and lava. The landscape would completely change, and the island would probably sink. Yet it remains exactly as it was, overrun with vegetation.

The mansion's just a big hole in the ground now, so why would Ange want to go there? Plus, it's impossible to get from the hole to Kuwadorian, especially in only those few hours she had. It was a choice... spend an hour staring at a hole, or spend an hour searching the secret mansion.
__________________
Squirrellord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 14:33   Link #1223
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
The thing about the volcano theory is that nobody would see it as a mystery, or believe in some kind of witch. The messages in a bottle were apparently written to plant the concept of Beatrice in everyone's minds, and yet, if there had been a volcano eruption, everything would be far too easy to explain without a witch.

People would just say "a volcano killed everyone and Eva happened to be somewhere else" and that would be the end of that. Nobody would blame Eva for the volcano, or Beato for any killings. The volcano would erase all evidence of any crimes as everyone's bodies would be melted in the lava. In other words, such an occurrence would be game over for Beato in every way.

Now consider that a volcano explosion would apparently have been covered up in Ange's world. An action requires both a method and a motive. It's not easy to cover up a volcano explosion, and someone would have to want to cover it up. Why, when a volcano explosion could never be considered as anyone's fault?

There are too many inconsistencies for it to be a believable theory. Maybe Battler could use it against Beato as blue-text ammo, but it's not really plausible.
k//eternal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 15:09   Link #1224
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Spoiler for Volcano hypothesis:



Spoiler for Episode 2 chapel:


Spoiler for Twilights:


Spoiler for Chess:
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 15:10   Link #1225
Alaya
Counter Force
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Even Battler use the volcano theory as a blue text ammo, I guess it would be countered by red texts right away...
__________________
Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.
Alaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 15:29   Link #1226
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Spoiler for Chess:
My theory on Battler's sin was sort of related to that.

Spoiler:
k//eternal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 16:08   Link #1227
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
After going through each episode I have made a chart on Twilights and frequencies.

Spoiler for Twilight 1:


Spoiler for Twilight 2:


Spoiler for Twilight 4:


Spoiler for Twilight 5:


Spoiler for Twilight 6:


Spoiler for Twilight 7:


Spoiler for Twilight 8:


Spoiler for Twilight 9:


Spoiler for Twilight 10:
__________________

Sig by nocco

Last edited by Marion; 2009-06-11 at 17:06.
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 16:20   Link #1228
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
However, why would the witch side make Krauss pretend he doesn't know anything of Kuwadorian? Why despite Kuwadorian wasn't a secret starting from Episode 3?
I have a perfect counter for this. Why Krauss would deny the existence of the gold when he was sure it existed? You can't certainly say that Krauss couldn't do that. He probably knew that there was a connection between the gold and the kuwadorian.
And about that this is yet another reason to think it was impossible for Krauss to do a half assed job in exploring the island. How could he be stingy when he could gain 20 billion of yen? The Mansion has a big garden and that mean that from above you'd find it without any effort. If Krauss didn't pay for an aerial recognition then he's pretty stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And peaking of Kuwadorian, on the other hand, it is even more suspicious that the witch side shows Nanjo knowing this location (more than a mere rumor) and the fact he already wandered in the corridor.
Why you think so? Considering Kinzo kept a person secluded there he needed a trusted doctor in case Beatrice became sick. To me it's perfectly logical, even if it was on the witch side I really can't see how this could be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And how the fact I cannot prove that Ange does trust the police automatically means I cannot debunk your theory? The fact your theory relies on a "non mention of the mansion" and "Ange not checking the mansion" doesn't mean it become untouchable just because I cannot claim with 100% proof that Ange trust what she learned from the police report back at that time.
Oh wait I didn't mean that, I was talking about this particular issue. This is just a circumstantial evidence, however many circumstantial evidences put together can give enough ground to a theory. This particular circumstantial evidence cannot be proven wrong. You may share a different opinion, but that's about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
You are merging the endingscroll with the witch's record, which I cannot agree.
Episode 4 proved that Episode 1 endingscroll was arguably real, especially Maria's letter. Do you expect me to believe that "conveniently, only the police finding the corpses" portion is a lie, among the text explaining the whole aftermath, the fisherman finding the letter years afterwards etc?
I fear I don't understand what is the witch's record if it isn't the ending scroll. Aren't you talking about the stuff that scrolls down after you finish the game? The part when every name gets listed and it is said how they died?
I'm talking about that anyway, I dunno how do you call it.


@squirrellord

You know what I don't like about your theory? Basically you are using the "Trap X" card to explain the last riddle.
This is basically the same thing Battler always uses whenever he has no other way to explain a murder. In the tea party of episode4 Battler uses it like 10 times.
So my point is... how many chances are there that Battler won't use this card again to explain the last riddle? 0% imho. It is impossible that he can't think about a trap.
So I would see it as an incredible anticlimax if we find out that Battler lost a game that he could have won by using one of his favorite cards. That would be really lame.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 16:31   Link #1229
k//eternal
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 25
It's in the ending scroll in ep1 as well as TIPS, but it doesn't necessarily correspond to the same "facts".

The witch's record is anti-mystery, while the rest of the info in the ending scroll is believed to apply to anti-fantasy as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovelysan View Post
Remember, though Rosa is painted in an especially bad light in this episode, deed down, she really does love her daughter. (Rosa just needs a lot of therapy. ...or meds.)
In fact, the part where she's screaming over and over about how she never loved Maria was only in Maria's dream, so that part only has to do with what Maria believes.
k//eternal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 16:45   Link #1230
Tjfarmer
I'm almost there!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bay Area, California
Age: 20
Send a message via AIM to Tjfarmer
@Marion - The endroll for Ep4 says that

Spoiler for Maria Ep4:
Tjfarmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 16:52   Link #1231
Squirrellord
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Send a message via MSN to Squirrellord
very nice stuff Marion, quite a lot to consider.
I want to bring up one thing though, the only thing we know for sure about Kinzo is that he's "Dead at the start of each game". I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but:
11:58pm October 3rd, Kinzo is alive
11:59pm October 3rd, Kinzo is killed
12:00am October 4th, Kinzo is dead at the start of the game.

If we believe that Kinzo only died a short while before the game starts, that would explain Dr.Nanjo's presence. It could be, as to not cause commotion (lol) during the conference, the servants and Nanjo decided against informing everyone that Kinzo was dead, planning on doing it after the family has left. Or perhaps they don't know, that when Genji went there Kinzo was missing, and he had been instructed by Kinzo never to mind such situations, as he will be in Kuwadorian at that time. Nanjo could have been instructed to say he'd been playing chess with Kinzo, as to keep people from wondering where he went off to.

@Jan-Poo
True, that's quite possible. Though we then have to ask for a definition of a trap. I said before that it was Beatrice's "will" to kill Battler when she rigged the boiler. That would definitely be a trap. Now let's say the intention of the boiler is merely to destroy the mansion and remove all evidence, and Battler HAPPENS to be there. Through a bit of word play, it is no longer a trap, but an accident (technically a felony murder)
__________________
Squirrellord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 17:42   Link #1232
izmosmolnar
At the end of this world
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrellord View Post
...we then have to ask for a definition of a trap...
I brought an expert on that subject:


-----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Spoiler for Chess:
The observation with the chess pieces is remarkable. Certainly it's possible that the reason Battler is so obsessively vehement about denying magic and supernatural, because his own "mom" (at least that's how he knows) was unaffected by Battler's attempts of preventing her death via trying to perform alchemy magic. I mean he was 12 at the time, It might be explainable he was desperate to do everything to help her, and It's safe to say he has a very vivid fantasy (i.e minibombs, and how according to him, the victims shoot each other at the same time). He also might have been influenced by Kinzo sometimes in the past, whether intentionally or not.
At least Asumu never comes back as a Homonculus Heh... Better not state such things. One never knows with Ryukishi.

It would also explain why the hell Maria wears such a silly crown, if she'd be the "queen" black King?.
__________________

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-06-11 at 18:34. Reason: correction
izmosmolnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:01   Link #1233
MagiToxin
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Hey, I'm currently replaying episode one right now...

Spoiler for Natsuhi's headache:
MagiToxin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:04   Link #1234
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Spoiler for k//eternal's post:


Also,
Spoiler for chess:
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:06   Link #1235
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
I brought an expert on that subject:
LOL! That would be great if that was the real definitin of trap.


BATTLER: The definition of trap?
BEATRICE: Let's ask admiral Ackbar
ACKBAR: Shannon is a trap!!!
BATTLER: Uh? What?!
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:21   Link #1236
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Considering the popularity of the Kanon = Shannon hypothesis, Shannon may well be a trap.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:28   Link #1237
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Jokes apart:

Definition of trap as stated by Beatrice:
Something invoked when a victim gets caught in it by their own actions.
that's not all! Things invoked by remote control or by a timer, ......everything like that is also included!

Ronove's addendum:
All devices that can succeed in murder without the direct participation of the person who set it up. I believe that definition may be appropriate.


I think Ronove's definition includes the situation mentioned by Squirrellord.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:30   Link #1238
izmosmolnar
At the end of this world
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Also,
Spoiler for chess:
Mea culpa. Her headband indeed represents King not queen. I haven't got a clue why king though.
__________________
izmosmolnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:44   Link #1239
Squirrellord
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Send a message via MSN to Squirrellord
So it does, Jan-poo, so it does.
Well, then I don't know how Battler dies, but I still think the boiler goes off to clear the evidence :P

And about Natsuhi's headache... she got a real *splitting* one this time ;D
Didn't Krauss mention it though, when she was defending Kinzo's honor, that if she got too worked up it'd get bad again? She really didn't have a lot of screen time, which is probably why it wasn't mentioned.
__________________
Squirrellord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-06-11, 18:48   Link #1240
fourtwenty
ざわ。。ざわ。。
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ontario
Ange got a headache when she was trying to use magic and summon the Stakes. Just throwing that out there, probably unrelated.
fourtwenty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.