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Old 2009-06-16, 07:28   Link #21
User91411
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Haven't really been reading up on Iran, but I hope this doesn't end up with a nuke strike. That's the last thing we all need.
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Old 2009-06-16, 07:51   Link #22
bladeofdarkness
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the riots are IN iran
the rioters are iranian people themselves
i kinda doubt they would use nukes (which they dont yet have) against people in THEIR OWN COUNTRY

let me give you the short version
there was an election
the guy who won seems to be the guy who most of the people DIDNT vote for
there is evidence that the goverment faked the results of the election
hence, the people riot
good for them (if their votes have been stolen, they are right to be pissed about it)
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Old 2009-06-16, 07:52   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolton View Post
Haven't really been reading up on Iran, but I hope this doesn't end up with a nuke strike. That's the last thing we all need.
A nuke would probably be the best way to solve the problem. Having a religious regime that is puritanical and senseless adds nothing more to scourge of the earth.

Their persecution of the Baha'i faith and among others, is purely idiotic. If they ran the country a little more like Malaysia or Indonesia, it wouldn't be that bad. Condemning other ideologies and faith hardcore is ridiculous.
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Old 2009-06-16, 08:41   Link #24
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On Iran, many people forget that this is a young nation. If I'm not mistaken, more than 50% of the population are younger than 30, i.e. they've never known Iran before the revolution of 1979. However, many of them are fed up with the status quo that ol' Ahmad and the clerics are upholding. Given a chance, they are probably more interested in stuff other than religious prosecution.

Iran wants to be recognised as a power in the Middle East. It's one of the very few Shiite states, and Sunni states have a deep distrust of Iran. Its non-oil economy is suffering, and yeah, things have reached a tipping point. In history, you don't piss off young people, especially if there're lots of them. Do that, and things will hit the fan.
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Old 2009-06-16, 10:14   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Iran wants to be recognised as a power in the Middle East.
For what? So that they can try to force Israeli people to leave the region? So that they can nuke anyone they want in the region? So that they can threaten anyone in their region? Sorry. The only reason they want such power is to dictate their terms to other countries in the region. And, that idea is shared by not only the old ones but also the young ones too. I have met many of those so-called reformists studying in US. In essence, they are pretty much similar.

Quote:
It's one of the very few Shiite states, and Sunni states have a deep distrust of Iran.
Rightfully so. They use terror to create turmoil in such states, and they fund terrorists activities in other states. They send their agents to other countries to kill people voicing opinions opposing their ideals, especially if they have some connections in those countries. They try to imitate the US of the cold war era in that region but they suck at it.

Quote:
Its non-oil economy is suffering, and yeah, things have reached a tipping point. In history, you don't piss off young people, especially if there're lots of them. Do that, and things will hit the fan.
The problem is there are young people on both sides. If those young people trigger the other youth to voice their opinion too, as to create a more radical regime, then it will become a killing each other play. And, in those games, it is usually the side that looks toward the bad side wins, meaning the people supporting the current government. We know from 30 years ago that they are a pretty much capable nation when it comes to killing its own people in batches.
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Old 2009-06-16, 13:11   Link #26
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"Iran's President Mahmud Ahmadinejad controls Iran through a kleptocracy of
Central African proportions, dissipating the country's oil windfall into payoffs to
an "entire class of hangers-on of the Islamic revolution","

Source:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JL16Ak02.html

Ahmadinejad & his crew control the money and they don't wanna let go. That has
a lot to do with what's happening in Iran right now.

Also, more from Michael Totten:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/bl...or_name=totten

Last edited by AnimeFan188; 2009-06-16 at 13:49.
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Old 2009-06-16, 14:52   Link #27
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Israel wants Ahmadinedjad to remain in power so that they can continue to make use of the fact that he's an idiot, particularly with his speech (israel off the map). If there were an outwardly more "normal" (what politicians are normal, really?) guy, it would be harder to maneuver.

Quote:
The only reason they want such power is to dictate their terms to other countries in the region. And, that idea is shared by not only the old ones but also the young ones too. I have met many of those so-called reformists studying in US. In essence, they are pretty much similar.
Aren't the people of all nations like that? My thoughts are that the young people of Iran just see a different path to gaining regional supremacy, one that involves less overt fundamentalism.

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A nuke would probably be the best way to solve the problem.
There's problems everywhere. We can't nuke them all or there wouldn't be anything left to fix.
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Old 2009-06-16, 15:51   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
A nuke would probably be the best way to solve the problem. Having a religious regime that is puritanical and senseless adds nothing more to scourge of the earth.
The regime is puritanical and senseless. Judging by the number of demonstrators, a large number of Iranians are not.
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Old 2009-06-16, 15:59   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Israel wants Ahmadinedjad to remain in power so that they can continue to make use of the fact that he's an idiot, particularly with his speech (israel off the map). If there were an outwardly more "normal" (what politicians are normal, really?) guy, it would be harder to maneuver.
He might be an idiot, but he is halfway there making his country become a nuclear power. And if you ask me he is pretty good with deception skills. He was able to delay any major sanction against his country. A more liberal leader would not have achieved that.

Quote:
Aren't the people of all nations like that? My thoughts are that the young people of Iran just see a different path to gaining regional supremacy, one that involves less overt fundamentalism.
What I was saying is from the point of view of a nation in the region, it does not make much difference who comes and goes. The constitution that threatens other countries is not going to change any time soon.

And I don't understand what US thinks either. They should be more scared of a more democratic nation there compared to a more oppressive one. Considering the lessons from the past, the next democratic one will not be controlled by US, which may become a bigger threat to them (as the economical threats are bound to have bigger impact on people's lives), especially if they can increase their influence in the region using their newly formed structure.
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Old 2009-06-16, 19:14   Link #30
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For the most part, it looks like the international community has been taking a fairly safe tact on this situation. The crisis in Iran is very much an internal affair, and any overt interference from the outside will only hurt whichever party that interference supports. As much of this is a matter of the hearts and minds of Iranians, that can possibly lead to the other party winning out. Moreover, election fraud isn't a certainty as of yet, and if Achmedinejad does end up as the President, then the other countries will have to deal with him. Doing so will be a lot easier if no overt support was given to his opponent.

As is, there is a lot of strain in the system, and the hard line elements in Iran look like they're going to have to make a very difficult choice as to how to respond. There's a decent chance that it can wrap up peacefully - maybe with a recount or even a re-do of the election.


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Originally Posted by Bolton View Post
Haven't really been reading up on Iran, but I hope this doesn't end up with a nuke strike. That's the last thing we all need.
The only nuclear powers with forces in the region are Pakistan, Russia, Israel and the United States. Of these, Russia and Pakistan have absolutely no intention of using them, and the U.S. has almost no inclination. Only Israel has a slight possibility of using its nukes, and only under the strongest provocation. Even then, it doesn't really have the capability of reaching most Iranian targets, and the U.S. wouldn't let it to so.

Regardless of any rumors and rhetoric to the contrary, Iran doesn't possess nuclear weapons, and there are no indications that it will do so any time soon (being five years or less).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
A nuke would probably be the best way to solve the problem. Having a religious regime that is puritanical and senseless adds nothing more to scourge of the earth.
Are you actually advocating the killing of tens or hundreds of thousands of people simply because you don't like Iran's government? I hope that you're just joking, because that's just sheer insanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
For what? So that they can try to force Israeli people to leave the region? So that they can nuke anyone they want in the region? So that they can threaten anyone in their region? Sorry. The only reason they want such power is to dictate their terms to other countries in the region. And, that idea is shared by not only the old ones but also the young ones too. I have met many of those so-called reformists studying in US. In essence, they are pretty much similar.
Quite simply, all countries desire more power, influence and authority. That's the nature of the beast. There's no need to project desires on another country like that, nor is there any reason to vilify Iran for ambitions that all countries possess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
The problem is there are young people on both sides. If those young people trigger the other youth to voice their opinion too, as to create a more radical regime, then it will become a killing each other play. And, in those games, it is usually the side that looks toward the bad side wins, meaning the people supporting the current government. We know from 30 years ago that they are a pretty much capable nation when it comes to killing its own people in batches.
Do you have any evidence that any of this is true? It runs counter to just about every credible source that I've read about Iran.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
He might be an idiot, but he is halfway there making his country become a nuclear power. And if you ask me he is pretty good with deception skills. He was able to delay any major sanction against his country. A more liberal leader would not have achieved that.
None of that is true; which is why there was a strong probability that Achmedinajad would lose the election in the first place.
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Old 2009-06-16, 21:23   Link #31
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Iran is the heir of the Persian Empire. They are not Arabs, and thus are mistrusted by the Arab states. Given this potential, to deny them a sphere of influence is unwise, to say the least.

On Israel, I can only say that the clock is ticking. The demographic shifts on the ground and the expansion of the settlements will only inflame sentiments, and give the enemies of Israel more ammunition to support their hate speeches.
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Old 2009-06-16, 21:47   Link #32
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at least with ahmadinijad in front, its LOOKS match its ESSENCE
Yeah, right, essence. So the very few powerful people who rule every country happen to match the essence of their population, with the mind-numbing difference in standard of living and the private interests behind every govenrment.

Democracy is broken--not necessarily by design, but definitely by implementation. Please let's start off with this fact or we'll get nowhere in any sort of discussion.

And, finally, do you really wish for a war? Do you really wish for thousands to die completely unjustifiedly?
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:12   Link #33
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Yeah, right, essence. So the very few powerful people who rule every country happen to match the essence of their population, with the mind-numbing difference in standard of living and the private interests behind every govenrment.
Hear hear! Has anyone heard of our previous President who goes by the nick name W?

This is something the Iranian people will have to solve for themselves. No one is immune to change whether we want it or not.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:29   Link #34
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Here is John Green's "5 reasons to doubt the results of the election" video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mqf00InV9E

I'm not going to bother to state any personal opinions because I frankly don't know much about it.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:33   Link #35
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Yeah, right, essence. So the very few powerful people who rule every country happen to match the essence of their population, with the mind-numbing difference in standard of living and the private interests behind every govenrment.

Democracy is broken--not necessarily by design, but definitely by implementation. Please let's start off with this fact or we'll get nowhere in any sort of discussion.

And, finally, do you really wish for a war? Do you really wish for thousands to die completely unjustifiedly?
No, he is completely right in his assessment. He is not referring to the essence of the population but the core hardline regime. Chimp man is the face of the regime. If you thought the UN was asleep at the wheel now, putting a pretty face out front in like Mousavi is not going to help. Mousavi was approved by the mullahs before something scared them. He'll dress up his words a little, put the world to sleep and the hard line regime will chug along without any meaningful action. Nothing to see here.

As to your last question. The post of his you are quoting shows no such desire. I understand that painting the other guy as a warmonger is a common tactic.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:44   Link #36
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All presidential candidates have to be approved by the Supreme Council. I thought this is common knowledge?

The clerics have misruled for 30 years, and it seems time to settle this issue.
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Old 2009-06-16, 23:28   Link #37
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No, he is completely right in his assessment. He is not referring to the essence of the population but the core hardline regime. Chimp man is the face of the regime. If you thought the UN was asleep at the wheel now, putting a pretty face out front in like Mousavi is not going to help. Mousavi was approved by the mullahs before something scared them. He'll dress up his words a little, put the world to sleep and the hard line regime will chug along without any meaningful action. Nothing to see here.
So, let me get this straight, it's better to have a fundamentalist regime on a foreign country so that it can get crushed by warfare? So we can have yet another excuse for a war? (Don't worry, Obama, you'll get to it sooner or later).

I agree on the idea that the people with true power would be dominating the country anyways (see my "Democracy is broken" statement). What I don't agree is on the idea that the people in power in Iran are somehow essentially different from the people in power in, say, the US or Israel. Do you really think that if the US wanted to bomb Iran it would make any difference who the face of the state is?
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Old 2009-06-17, 03:47   Link #38
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
So, let me get this straight, it's better to have a fundamentalist regime on a foreign country so that it can get crushed by warfare? So we can have yet another excuse for a war? (Don't worry, Obama, you'll get to it sooner or later).
there IS a fundamentalist regime in iran and it will remain there REGARDLESS to whoever gets elected
the guy who gets elected is only a FACE
he doesnt actually RUN the country, he just FOLLOWS ORDERS from the people who DO
so who ever gets ELECTED doesnt make any REAL difference and wont change the people who actually ARE in power
the people who actually DO run the country CANT be replaced by elections
and hence, better to have a guy who doesnt give anyone any illusions about the fact that the regime is a crazy dangerus fundamentalist regime
musavi looks like a reasonable man who might make a good LEADER
the problem is that he ISNT running to be elected as leader
he is running to be elected as FIGURE HEAD
a mouth piece for the ayatolla's

this isnt a "Democracy is broken" situation like you make it sound
this isnt a Democracy at all
and you are seeing it now in full view with whats going on there

Quote:
I agree on the idea that the people with true power would be dominating the country anyways (see my "Democracy is broken" statement). What I don't agree is on the idea that the people in power in Iran are somehow essentially different from the people in power in, say, the US or Israel. Do you really think that if the US wanted to bomb Iran it would make any difference who the face of the state is?
the difference is that if the people in power in either the US or israel dont conduct themselves like the PEOPLE want them to
they can be REPLACED
not just the head guy, but the entire compasition of the parlament or presidency
that is NOT the case in iran
ahmadinijad might go, but he isnt the one in power
the ones in power are the ones breaking the heads of protestors and blocking access to the media and internet so people cant tell the outside world whats going on

your also fundamentaly wrong about the idea that the people in power in iran are the same as the other two cases you named
the people in control in iran are DICTATORS who answer to NO ONE becouse they have convinced the people (and to some degree, themselves) that they speak for GOD (and hence, opposing them is like opposing god)
show me an american or israeli leader who would dare to say something like that
that they are in power because GOD put them in power
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Old 2009-06-17, 05:13   Link #39
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
show me an american or israeli leader who would dare to say something like that
that they are in power because GOD put them in power
Too easy. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003...2/usa.religion

"The book also shows that in the lead-up to announcing his candidacy for the presidency, Bush told a Texan evangelist that he had had a premonition of some form of national disaster happening.

Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.' "

Bold mine.


Though you seem to be missing something on this Iran issue. The one of the reasons the ayatollahs didn't want Mousavi to win is because they're concerned that he wouldn't listen to them. This is a guy who has refused to run for political office for 20 years, all of a sudden changing his mind and wanting to run. He has a fair degree of public support as well. If he came out and ran for office again after all this time, clearly he has a reason. He's even openly stated he wanted political reforms such as allowing privately owned television stations and presidential control of police. That supporting privately owned TV stations alone is enough to get them to not want this guy as president.
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Old 2009-06-17, 05:17   Link #40
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There are now rumours that the clerics would pull a Tiananmen. Any thoughts on this?
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