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Old 2009-06-17, 19:47   Link #20121
Sol Falling
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'xcuse me for interruptin'. Back to Suzakallen for a moment.

Everyone seems to be on the same page that Suzaku is willing to accept his punishment and live out his life as Zero, and as thus is not likely to turn to Kallen for support (much less Nunally). The point is, this kinda mindset ('I deserve to be punished, I should throw away my life and happiness.') is unhealthy, not good, and possibly unsustainable.

Personally, I don't believe Suzaku is 'satisfied' carrying Euphie in his heart. Suzaku's time with Euphie was very brief. She never had the chance to give him anything, some strength to carry on living with kindness and happiness, before she was taken away. That's why, to Suzaku, she only became a motive for revenge. By the end of the series, Suzaku has succeeded in avenging Euphie by leading his best friend to willingly commit suicide, at the cost of great tragedies like the bombing of Tokyo. Despite world peace and everything, this isn't an achievement by any means. For Suzaku, Euphie and what he has done for her have only become all the more reason to punish himself.

The idea of Suzakallen is thus somewhat unbalanced. The thing is, people are right when they say Kallen is satisfied with her memory of Lelouch; at least moreso than Suzaku. Kallen is living a peaceful life like Lelouch wanted her to, in a world Lelouch gave up his life for, and I certainly believe (like many Kalulu shippers) that she could be happy with just that. In essence, what this means then is that Suzakallen would primarily be about Kallen giving, and Suzaku recieving. Kallen would be the one chasing Suzaku, trying to tell him he doesn't have to be so hard on himself, and offering to share his burden. And while Kallen would certainly be well suited to this role (like blade said, she's knows about the weight of Zero's mask, and as I noted, her unrestrained and forward nature could really help Suzaku loosen up), the question is: how willing would Kallen be to play it?

Personally, I can get behind the idea. Showing more of Kallen's empathic character would do a lot for her in my eyes, and a happier ending for Suzaku would really mean a lot. But then that's the thing: a lot of Kallen's characterization and fan conception is about her being a supporter or protector of her own (friends, family, heritage) than somebody who reaches out to others. So it feels like quite a few people wouldn't like this idea even beyond who they're primarily shipping.
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Old 2009-06-18, 03:39   Link #20122
bladeofdarkness
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thats a very nice post sol
but i'm still in the mind that nunnaly would try her best to get the two of them to reconcile
beyond the whole question of "romance" one has to remember that suzaku's list of people he can be himself around or turn to for ANY kind of support is limited
in fact other then nunnaly, its pretty much limited to kallen
and this isnt about a limited social circle or in ability to make friends either, he is LITTERALY limited to just those two
for the REST OF HIS LIFE
and i TOTALLY agree with the idea that its unhealthy and unsustainable for suzaku to remain isolated from the world (given the weight on his shoulders)
he NEEDS support, and i dont think nunnaly alone would be enough
especially since suzaku seems to view HER as the one HE should be taking care of, and so is less likely to turn to HER for help
his level of openess with kallen however, has been shown to be surprising
and her willingness to keep his darkest secrets is also quite surprising given what she knows about him and given that they were enemies for so long

i think that nunnaly would be the trigger to get them back on speaking terms
and i think kallen's natural stubborness would lead the rest of the way to forcing him to open up
if nothing else then becouse she knows that if HE caves in, then everything lelouch died for is ruined
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:02   Link #20123
yvj
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Well if you play off the idea that Suzaku continues to carry his cross/mask, add in a little hypothetical that the post ZR world starts to suck again. Eventually you may happen to have Suzaku Kallen interaction where Suzaku goes "Kallen I've failed in being Zero."

Kallen will be all "Just live your life" and such.

Suzaku will be all like "Suzaku is dead I have no life to live I am only Zero!"

Kallen will roll her eyes and says his negative attitude is even effecting Nunnally.

Suzaku will be all manic at this point and counter "I don't deserve to speak with Nunnaly....Why is Nunnaly not mad at me? How can you not be angry with me Kallen I killed Lelouch yadd yadda..."

Kallen would be all "Oro? Wasn't ZR about yadda yadda and not your personal etc etc...Would Lelouch want.... "

And Suzaku would be "Impossible you don't understand....the blood spilled..... I don't deserve happiness...."

Kallen would bring up Euphie for some reason.

And Suzaku would go wide eyed "Euphie....." Then he'll say something about Euphie being his fault and the world really hasn't changed, and he is still powerless to stop another Euphie incident from happening again."

Then Kallen would punch him in the face and say he'd forgotten what ZR was about and he's stuck in the past, and thus he's disgraced the memory of Lelouch something she will never forgive. Then she uppercuts him and kicks him in the groin.

Suzaku falls to his knees in tears, he realizes also how Kallen must have felt powerless in watching Lelouch get killed, then he realizes more stuff and recognizes the merit in Kallen's words.

Then she'd try to get him to chillax then maybe something would grow from there.
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:10   Link #20124
bladeofdarkness
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thas actually not all that far off
though i dont think she'd punch him in the face an kick him in the groin
i think a bright slap would be more then enough (she gives REALLY good bright slaps)
and say something like "you ARE zero right now, you have a world counting on you, and your going to FIX it if i have to drag you kicking and screaming all the way"
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:13   Link #20125
yvj
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thas actually not all that far off
though i dont think she'd punch him in the face an kick him in the groin
i think a bright slap would be more then enough (she gives REALLY good bright slaps)
Well I did exaggerate in certain situations. For the sake of a good time. Though I do think she would punch him, in Lelouch's name.

Seriously though like you said a scenario like that is not far reaching.
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:19   Link #20126
bladeofdarkness
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if she can get lelouch to snap out of his depression
i think she can do the same for suzaku

and actually i can totally live with a punch (CLENCH THOSE TEETH !!!!!)
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:32   Link #20127
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if she can get lelouch to snap out of his depression
i think she can do the same for suzaku

and actually i can totally live with a punch (CLENCH THOSE TEETH !!!!!)
No. Because Suzaku is a walking misery-depression guy, he is the Subaru of CLAMP. Lelouch was different, he was not emo-boy, unless situations required him to.
And now Suzaku being Zerozaku {meaning he can be as miserable as he want under the mask, it is like an orgasm for him}, Dear God help them all there. 8D
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:36   Link #20128
bladeofdarkness
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then following your logic
if he gets too depressed over the state of the world
kallen beating him up would get him feeling better again
either way, she would help him get back on track
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:38   Link #20129
Nobodyman9
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then following your logic
if he gets too depressed over the state of the world
kallen beating him up would get him feeling better again
either way, she would help him get back on track
I think what sky is saying is that Suzaku is just too emo. That is, he's too fargone, that no amount of Kalulu snap-out-of-it slapping could help him.

Hmm, but that begs the question, which is stronger? Suzaku's emo-ness or Kallen's slaps?
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:42   Link #20130
yvj
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I think what sky is saying is that Suzaku is just too emo. That is, he's too fargone, that no amount of Kalulu snap-out-of-it slapping could help him.

Hmm, but that begs the question, which is stronger? Suzaku's emo-ness or Kallen's slaps?
Which is why I went with the groin kick. Hopefully Kallen is wearing steel tipped boots.....it would probably clear his mind


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Old 2009-06-18, 04:44   Link #20131
bladeofdarkness
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the question isnt which one is stronger
the very fact that those two forces are in conflict is what makes them BOTH needed
a BALANCE of emo and bright slapping
if ALL that he is is emo then suzaku will collapes before too long
he needs someone to balance him out
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:49   Link #20132
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Hmm, but that begs the question, which is stronger? Suzaku's emo-ness or Kallen's slaps?
Kallen's power of ignorance maybe? Towards him? 8D
Why would she care to go and snap him out? Zerozaku chose that fate {fuck, his fate is epic btw, being Zero, DUH} so he is supposed to be like this {and honestly, he wants to be like this}, and give his happiness to endure that peace shall reign as long as he can.
Kallen is too busy, catching up with school {you skipped classes girl, you did skip, then again, if skip equated you topping Lelouch, was not that bad} feeding her mama and fappi..ahem, looking at Lelouch's pic.
And like Nerv HQ says, "God's in His Heaven {that is Lulu} all;s right with the world."
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:54   Link #20133
yvj
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Can't fight that Suzaku does want it. Just like Kallen wants what she wants.

It's all fanfiction beyond that point. The what ifs all begin if Suzaku happens to slip up from his zero path, and Kallen from the eternal widow path.

Not very likely but eh I've heard worse future scenarios.
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:55   Link #20134
bladeofdarkness
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as long as all is actually RIGHT with the world
what happens when it STOPS being right
what happens when Atlas Shrugges
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Old 2009-06-18, 04:57   Link #20135
yvj
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as long as all is actually RIGHT with the world
what happens when it STOPS being right
what happens when Atlas Shrugges
Ann Rynd goes "see I was right!"

But still you make a fair point. The world crapping out changes what Lelouch left behind.
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Old 2009-06-18, 05:00   Link #20136
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Can't fight that Suzaku does want it. Just like Kallen wants what she wants.

It's all fanfiction beyond that point. The what ifs all begin if Suzaku happens to slip up from his zero path, and Kallen from the eternal widow path.

Not very likely but eh I've heard worse future scenarios.
Lol, the point is that this is how the story ended. It is obvious Suzaku, wants to be like this and chose to. Kallen is living her life as much happily as she can keeping her Lulu-you-are-hot-dammit-i-should-have-jumped-you-on-turn-7-feelings in her heart. This is what the last PD showed too.
Now yes, lately we go to fanficition fields, because we try to "force" behaviors in the characters, that contradicted how it ended.
So yeah, if we want to enter that world, there is a lot to discuss. But mostly. semi-AU-ish.
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Old 2009-06-18, 05:02   Link #20137
bladeofdarkness
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Ann Rynd goes "see I was right!"

But still you make a fair point. The world crapping out changes what Lelouch left behind.
and gives kallen a VERY good reason to try and get suzaku back on track
becouse she has a better shot of doing it then nunnaly does (can you imagine nunnaly bright slapping ANYONE)
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Old 2009-06-18, 05:06   Link #20138
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and gives kallen a VERY good reason to try and get suzaku back on track
becouse she has a better shot of doing it then nunnaly does (can you imagine nunnaly bright slapping ANYONE)
Lol,you guys ZR will NOT collapse. It is fiction, not real life. The unrealistic scenario that works oh-so-fabulous in fiction. Simple.
Also, let us go to fanfiction shit, just for the sake of it {this convo drives me crazy btw} so if people start being all not-after-ZR-ish, why would Suzaku get blamed for that? Or why would Suzaku need to snap out? Please, it is Suzaku, he would do anything to keep peace, as long as he could. This is the point. He would not need anyone to snap him out, just someone to help him do the dirty work and STFU the pricks that try to ruin the aftermath-peace of ZR.
Suzaku would not go all "ahhhh, mama help me" only so Kallen comes to slap him and realizes, that she suddenly starts falling for the boys she slaps, lol guys.
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Old 2009-06-18, 05:16   Link #20139
bladeofdarkness
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suzaku is STILL human
he can have bad days
he can have depression
he can have times when he thinks "whats the point of it all, nothing ever changes"
this is ESPECIALLY true since lelouch's plan DIDNT actually change human nature itself
and suzaku is also in the uniqe position where there is NOTHING he can EVER possibly hope for

if what people want more then anything is a tomorrow, then its the one thing that suzaku would NEVER have
he will keep playing the role of zero forever with no hope of ever begin or having anything else save that mask
everyone feels depressed some times
but suzaku has even MORE reason to
1)the weight of the world on his shoulders, regardless to whetehr or not he feels up to it
2)almost no one he could possibly turn to for support
3)no possible hope for a better future for himself. EVER

assuming that nunnaly can get them back on speaking terms
i think kallen is more likely to be of help then nunnaly is
becuse she is more likely to try and FORCE him to open up rather then let him have what he wants
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Old 2009-06-18, 05:23   Link #20140
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
suzaku is STILL human
he can have bad days
he can have depression
he can have times when he thinks "whats the point of it all, nothing ever changes"
this is ESPECIALLY true since lelouch's plan DIDNT actually change human nature itself
and suzaku is also in the uniqe position where there is NOTHING he can EVER possibly hope for

if what people want more then anything is a tomorrow, then its the one thing that suzaku would NEVER have
he will keep playing the role of zero forever with no hope of ever begin or having anything else save that mask
everyone feels depressed some times
but suzaku has even MORE reason to
1)the weight of the world on his shoulders, regardless to whetehr or not he feels up to it
2)almost no one he could possibly turn to for support
3)no possible hope for a better future for himself. EVER

assuming that nunnaly can get them back on speaking terms
i think kallen is more likely to be of help then nunnaly is
becuse she is more likely to try and FORCE him to open up rather then let him have what he wants
1. Suzaku is NOT human, you should know that, show taught us that, LOL.

Ok, srsly, guys as much as i love Kallen, she is NOT God. She is not Mother Teresa that can touch people and snap them out of whatever down-shit they have.
When it comes to Suzaku, the only person that could help him {which again, i do not think Suzaku needs help, he is perfectly fine and he chose that} is Nunally, a Euphemia counterpart, Kallen is not suited to do that. Kallen does not know him well ultimately, Nunally is Suzaku's second closest person, that is rather obvious. AU- or not AU.

But anyway, i am done with this convo, if people want to believe that Kallen and Zerozaku could be an item or idk what in the future, feel free to. If other people say about Kagino-possible in the future though, do not blame them or try to bring it down with "justifying-points" because ah, apparently like it had stated before "lot of things happen in the future".
For Kallen to be with someone in the future, goes against what the show ended, so if we are to enter the "but it is the future!!111"-possibilities, everyone's fair game.
Personally, i see a Kallen living as what she described in her chara song pretty much for the rest of her life, everything else is totally fanfiction for me. So seeing "justifying points" about other things, makes me "ahhhhh, sure." Cause everything else, is fanfiction.
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