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Old 2009-06-21, 22:27   Link #41
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
No offense, but I always had the feel that anime was the poorer cousin to manga, in the sense that if you screw up one anime series, the anime studio takes a huge body blow, and thus people tend to be less innovative. In manga magazines, screw up and the editors drop you to get another upstart. The ability to experiment is very much greater in manga, IMO.
And therefore, manga ends up being better overall than anime.

I like your thinking.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:41   Link #42
Sasano
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Originally Posted by Komari View Post
And therefore, manga ends up being better overall than anime.

I like your thinking.
I don't hate manga but in away isn't that like saying McWhopper is a better meal than a Steak because its cheaper?

Manga has the advantage of being cheaper on production, sure that doesn't make it at all a better medium.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:45   Link #43
yezhanquan
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With manga, at least there is an ability to gauge the reaction "on the ground". If it sells well, the next step is the anime. It's like the restaurant introducing the steak after the Whopper sells well. This has happened countless times.

IMO, manga is a better medium for experimentation, because it has a lower sunk cost.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:49   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Sasano View Post
I don't hate manga but in away isn't that like saying McWhopper is a better meal than a Steak because its cheaper?

Manga has the advantage of being cheaper on production, sure that doesn't make it at all a better medium.
True, true. I should've said that manga has more quality. Since with manga, a publisher can choose what series they wanna try, get some feedback from the readers, and drop it like a hot potato whenever they want. With an anime studio, they pretty much have to stick with an anime they decide to do. If they just randomly drop an anime with the excuse, "The Nielsen (the Japanese version) ratings sucked for xx anime, so we're dropping it," how would that look?
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:53   Link #45
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There's a big difference between anime and manga (ranging from art quality, quantity and styles). No matter how hard a manga tries it can never be an anime, or the other way around. People prefer one to the other because of the differences, sometimes enjoying the action in the anime or the simple beauty in a manga. They journey hand in hand, influencing each other heavily and never quite attaining every characteristic the other has. Many would like it to stay as it is as well. After all, if manga and anime became the same thing one couldn't delight in two versions of their favorite series.

The whole manga vs anime argument is really just the same as the "Whats better the book or the movie?" argument.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:54   Link #46
yezhanquan
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Anime sales are mainly through DVD/BluRay, so ratings is not what they're looking for. Besides, most anime air after midnight.

Don't forget: there is also this thing known as drama CDs.
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Old 2009-06-21, 23:34   Link #47
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Personally, I like a good portion of ecchi and moe genre anime series so it annoys me to see that those types of anime are still being used a scapgoat of what's wrong with anime. Ultimately, I think people should judge an anime series on how well it executes, not what genre it's in.

I dunno, it seems that like the videogame community there's a good portion of anime fans specifically western fans are insecure with their hobby, constantly worrying about the outside perception, which is why whenever a series like queen's blade comes along there a lot of comments along the lines of "omg, this is what's wrong with anime". You can look in any other medium, I sure there's stuff on the level or that go farther than queen's blade.
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Old 2009-06-21, 23:57   Link #48
yezhanquan
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My gripe is that there is such a thing as overdose. For moe and ecchi, there is only so much I can take before I give up.
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:17   Link #49
Sackett
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I'll repeat and amplify:

Just keep the ecchi crap out of my rice bowl.

Things like that infamous blatant meaningless panty shot in the first Full Metal Panic.

Or the way Akemi runs around in a see-through nightie for the first season of Maison Ikkoku.

Why?? Why does there seem to be this need to throw in needless fanservice into a moving and interesting story?

Pure "H" anime- whatever. I don't like it. (I especially don't like the way anime is used to allow men to fantasize about illegal sexual acts- such as sex with too young girls). However, I can ignore those anime and enjoy the good stuff.

But then it seems the producers just can't resist mixing in a little bit of that crap with the shows I do like. And while I put up with it (as long as it's not too bad) it still irritates me- and I think I have a dog-gone right to be irritated by it.
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:27   Link #50
animeboy12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
My gripe is that there is such a thing as overdose. For moe and ecchi, there is only so much I can take before I give up.
Can't the same be said about any genre? If one or to genres start taking a lot of the spotlight in any medium it's ussually a bad thing. My problem is that I really don't see the dozens and dozens of fanservice and moe series. Sure they're popular but it's not like anime doesn't have any less varity in it.
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:46   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animeboy12 View Post
Personally, I like a good portion of ecchi and moe genre anime series so it annoys me to see that those types of anime are still being used a scapgoat of what's wrong with anime. Ultimately, I think people should judge an anime series on how well it executes, not what genre it's in.

I dunno, it seems that like the videogame community there's a good portion of anime fans specifically western fans are insecure with their hobby, constantly worrying about the outside perception, which is why whenever a series like queen's blade comes along there a lot of comments along the lines of "omg, this is what's wrong with anime". You can look in any other medium, I sure there's stuff on the level or that go farther than queen's blade.
I actually have to admit that I get a kick out of the fact stuff like Queen's Blade exists and will sometimes watch an episode or two for kicks until the "I can't believe they just showed that!!!" novelty wears off.

On the flip side, I don't find blatant ecchi that attractive, so for me such shows are no more erotic than many far more subtle works. For that reason, they rarely make my favourites list.

(The ultimate "I can't believe they just showed that" series IMO would have to be Inukami... but it's more of a ruthless send-up of the fanservice genre than a real fanservice show and it can also be quite brain scarring at times.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
I'll repeat and amplify:

Just keep the ecchi crap out of my rice bowl.

Things like that infamous blatant meaningless panty shot in the first Full Metal Panic.

Or the way Akemi runs around in a see-through nightie for the first season of Maison Ikkoku.

Why?? Why does there seem to be this need to throw in needless fanservice into a moving and interesting story?

Pure "H" anime- whatever. I don't like it. (I especially don't like the way anime is used to allow men to fantasize about illegal sexual acts- such as sex with too young girls). However, I can ignore those anime and enjoy the good stuff.

But then it seems the producers just can't resist mixing in a little bit of that crap with the shows I do like. And while I put up with it (as long as it's not too bad) it still irritates me- and I think I have a dog-gone right to be irritated by it.
I semi-agree with the Full Metal Panic example (haven't seen the other) - it was just completely out of place and made me go like "what?". On the flip side, I kind of dug Kaname's shower scenes (which didn't show much), and I loved the hot spring episode in Fumoffu. So I would tend to say my problem with the panty shot wasn't that it was fanservice - it's that it was poorly integrated fanservice that stuck out like a sore thumb and wasn't even hot to boot. Since it's fairly rare for me to find such poorly integrated fanservice, it rarely bugs me.
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:58   Link #52
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Yep I agree that anime is being abused nowadays. Stuff like ecchi would probably be okay if it was for a comedic purpose. But maybe once or twice in a series would be enough. About fan-service, well I don't consider it evil or anything. I mean there are people who enjoy that entertainment. I don't find any problems with it if it's harmless. As long as it doesn't go way over the line like Queen's Blade

Don't hate me or anything, but I personally think hentai is abusive. Well not only for me, but also a few other people I know IRL. It kinda ruins the glamour and grandness in anime. I mean I've heard from others that hentai have really suckish plots and that there are tons of anime which have way better animation, so I don't think it's necessary to watch.

Peace to those hentai lovers
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Old 2009-06-22, 01:00   Link #53
james0246
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^Not to defend hentai, or anything ero in nature, but do you also look down on live action films/television because porn films exist?
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Old 2009-06-22, 01:14   Link #54
Throne Invader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Not to defend hentai, or anything ero in nature, but do you also look down on live action films/television because porn films exist?
No not at all. Porn films are different than tv shows. If I get what you mean correctly. I do look down on porn films though. But then I guess it's a natural walk of life for other people. I just don't mind it.

I love certain tv shows like the Amazing Race, Search for the Next Doll and game shows
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Old 2009-06-22, 01:21   Link #55
Eater of All
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Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
I don't necessarily agree with that. It's a simple solution to the problem at hand. There are a ton of people out there who like this sort of anime. It's not going to go away anytime soon, so instead of focusing on something you hate, focus on the things you like. Isn't that what makes people happy? Do the stuff you enjoy because worrying about something you hate will only cause more grief.
The topic here is to discuss whether or not anime is being abused, not trying to solve FireChick's dilemma with ecchi/fanservice. She stated an opinion about the abundance of fanservice in modern anime, which has nothing to do with whether or not she herself watches them. For all we know, she might already be avoiding them like a plague, yet that doesn't mean she is prohibited from expressing her thoughts, right?

Think of it like this. I orz at the mention of Queen's Blade. FireChick took it up to the next level and made a topic instead.
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Old 2009-06-22, 01:21   Link #56
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witchburn View Post
Don't hate me or anything, but I personally think hentai is abusive. Well not only for me, but also a few other people I know IRL. It kinda ruins the glamour and grandness in anime. I mean I've heard from others that hentai have really suckish plots and that there are tons of anime which have way better animation, so I don't think it's necessary to watch.
My experience with hentai anime is pretty limited, but I get the impression that a lot of them are erogames or manga compressed into two or three anime episodes. In basic, they're a collection of key scenes in animated form - if you want the full plot, you need to look to the original source material. Which isn't necessarily to say that the source stuff material for most hentai is a masterpiece, just to say that it's being butchered in adaption too.

(I've seen non-hentai OVAs that are like this too - a number of older OVAs just scream to me "we're just animating the cool parts, go read the manga if you want the story".)

Overall, most of the hentai I've seen is pretty bad but I do have a soft spot for a couple titles.
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Old 2009-06-22, 01:35   Link #57
qwertyuiopz
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u say abused as if anime is pure and innocent

anime is a source for money, if fans will pay money for fanservice then they will get it
if u dont like it then just dont watch the genre ?
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Old 2009-06-22, 07:48   Link #58
npcomplete
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Why?? Why does there seem to be this need to throw in needless fanservice into a moving and interesting story?

Pure "H" anime- whatever. I don't like it. (I especially don't like the way anime is used to allow men to fantasize about illegal sexual acts- such as sex with too young girls).
I obviously can't change your opinion, but are you aware about the age of consent in other countries?

Quote:
However, I can ignore those anime and enjoy the good stuff.
Yes you can.

Quote:
But then it seems the producers just can't resist mixing in a little bit of that crap with the shows I do like. And while I put up with it (as long as it's not too bad) it still irritates me- and I think I have a dog-gone right to be irritated by it.
You sure do. Of course everyone else has the right to an opposing opinion as well, which is why things you don't like get made in the first place.
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Old 2009-06-22, 08:22   Link #59
npcomplete
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Originally Posted by FireChick View Post
Although anime still cotninues to be popular to this day...it's popularity seems to now be abused and used in the WRONG way.
But wrong according to who? You might as well be saying there's right and wrong music. It's a subjective judgment.

Quote:
Why do I say it's being popular in the WRONG way, you ask? Before, animators created their own creative stories with good characters, good plots, good development, somewhat realistic references, good setting, good plot devices, and many other things. But it seems that ever since 2005-2006, about 70% of anime has consisted of NOTHING but moe, lolicon, useless fan-service, ecchi, chest groping, people shoving their privates in other people's faces, non-seriousness, lack of discipline, maid outfits, bunny outfits and fetishes!...and now it's going to go WAY TOO FAR. The other 30% being the anime WITHOUT that useless stuff (such as anime from the like the World Masterpiece Theater). And when I say "going way too far", I am referring to titles such as these:

1. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...nime-green-lit
2. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=9000
3. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=8195
4. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=7688
5. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...me.php?id=9561
World Masterpiece Theater is good stuff, but there's also nothing wrong with those titles above.


Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT criticizing ALL anime. I am just saying that the population of fan-service infested anime NEEDS to go down, such as titles like these. If someone wants to make titles like these, keep them in a low number! I just feel that people are suddenly loving these kinds of anime and don't realize that this is going too far in introducing horrible sexual stuff to the world. I mean, there's so much better anime that just want to be discovered. I don't mind simple fantasy ones or quiet slice-of-life titles or simple romance stories or murder mysteries or magical girl anime or supernatural stories about demons and spirits any of the stuff JUST as long as they ARE NOT infested with the stuff which I feel has made anime feel abused and made popular in the WRONG way.

I mean, there's so many things worth showing in anime, but not overused and dumb fan-service.
And those other titles ARE constantly being made, practically every season has a fair share of non-fanservice shows. So I don't buy the argument that the fanservicey shows prevent other, more serious shows from being made. It seems to me that you're just upset about the popularity of the shows you don't like.
edit: looking at the current season, I actually see more non-fanservice shows


Quote:
What I'm saying is, anime is about creating entertainment for everyone to enjoy in a good way, NOT about fan-service, moe, lolicon, and fetishes! I know this is gonna cause a LOT of controversy, but say what you want. I'm just expressing my opinion.

Does anyone else feel that anime has been abused and used in the wrong way?
You know, even if industry stops commercially producing all of the things you say are "wrong", people are simply going to make it themselves -- see the *chans. And if you outright ban the material, then you've just created an underground economy.

Whenever I read opinions like these--about right and wrong ways, about things that are good or bad for people--particularly the kind of opinions that would lead to regulation in industry and/or government of what is ultimately a subjective matter, I'm reminded of oppressive governments or repressive policies around the world, including several unfortunate cases here in the US (like Handley's case).

While what you mention is not that extreme of course, the intent still tends towards the same direction

Last edited by npcomplete; 2009-06-22 at 09:42.
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Old 2009-06-22, 09:48   Link #60
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this discussion reminds me of something in western films where lots of times movies are clearly influenced by what the marketing industry marks as guaranteed selling mechanisms, giving people what they want is one of them but the most important one of all in this century is this one: sex sells, whether it is in the form of tight outfits or cute loli's with panty shots it sells

There is always discussion as to how much influence a studio has on a western movie, for example when it comes to homosexuality in movies, certain political views etc. I remember seeing a docu yesterday about how the Hollywood film industry was making movies about the Spanish revolution and how some movies were clearly stating that America should help them while others remained neutral about it, Hollywood banned several movies because they portrait Russia as a savior etc.
In modern times Hollywood has taken a form where some subjects are just taken out of the industry (like I said: homosexuality and political views, people picking up this subject can even get their movie banned or have their budget cut) and instead they keep feeding the public movies that have been altered to what in their eyes sells the most and that is sex: tight costumes for female characters, in some cases same goes for the male, this picture pretty figure all A+ actors need to have etc.

However there is also this, there are also studio's that clearly don't give a crap and even though these studio's are not the best known ones and their movies are not the usual top listed like Hollywood movies they still get their attention, though less attention and this attention spreads to the public from mouth to mouth in words like "did you see this movie? you should!" and so it still becomes popular

If you think this is being off topic, then compare it to the anime sector: I don't know if the same kind of business happens in an anime or manga studio where they could promote the sex sells rule, the people obviously likes loli's and obviously like oversized boobs so yes it is positive to assume that makers will take that taste into assumption and in some cases like yours use that in their design or focus shot area and I can understand how you can get annoyed with that because I had this with Hollywood movies (the whole day after tommorow, the happening etc. movies annoyed me as well as low budget horror of a same studio with the same kind of plot and standard engineered movies that seemed to drop off the factory just to milk out more money by using sexy women in a desperate situation a.k.a. your standard "I'm going to check something out" with them being killed in the next 5 minutes in a horrible manor)

every category is being so over milked that it seems that there is nothing original anymore, for example when it comes to things being animated last year we had a huge increase with anime where the main character was a villain, why? Because people loved it when they showed it a first time and so they decided to milk it out now that it was still popular to the public, slice of life is a same category I simply find it not worth it to watch some slice of life shows because it is all so over used.

However behind this curtain of loli's, over sized breasts, gundam and standard slice of life is what you are looking for: the anime that doesn't give a f*ck about these rules and that actually has an actual plot that people love regardless of the fact that there are no panty shots or boobage, the only bad thing is the market isn't huge enough so it cannot feed the need that quickly as the rest, there are a couple series a year that fit this category and even though they are not advertised so openly as the boobage etc. shows they are there and that is what counts.

I wouldn't say anime is being abused, I would say it is being influenced too much.
The time you are referring to, the time of Astro boy etc. in that timeline there wasn't as much marketing influence as there is now and this not just in anime but in every thing. But the thing is you can always avoid these shows and go watch whatever you like =P thank goodness this forum doesn't just list boobage shows etc. otherwise it would have been echii-suki or loli-suki lol
edit: and by marketing influence in this last part I do not mean censorship cause we all know Japan doesn't do censorship =P
what I mean is that the thing that the people like to see: loli's, boobage and panty shots is being milked into a series for more sellings
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