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Old 2009-06-22, 10:07   Link #61
MeoTwister5
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I live in a mode of convenient self-denial. Seems like the best way to weed out the things I don't like.
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Old 2009-06-22, 11:49   Link #62
alamarco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
The topic here is to discuss whether or not anime is being abused, not trying to solve FireChick's dilemma with ecchi/fanservice. She stated an opinion about the abundance of fanservice in modern anime, which has nothing to do with whether or not she herself watches them. For all we know, she might already be avoiding them like a plague, yet that doesn't mean she is prohibited from expressing her thoughts, right?

Think of it like this. I orz at the mention of Queen's Blade. FireChick took it up to the next level and made a topic instead.
Again, I'll have to disagree. As seen on the second page, the author of this thread asked for this thread to be closed. Too many people were offering counters, instead of agreeing with their opinion. This seemed to have aggravated the author. So to me, it seems like the author wasn't up for any discussion. A discussion is based on many opinions, counters, etc. If you shut out these counters and try to force a one sided topic, then I do say that maybe the best thing to do is just ignore it. There will be other people who have opinions that differ, and if one can't cope with that, then the best thing to do is ignore it.

If someone started a topic of discussion, than ignoring the issue at hand isn't proper since they are open to discussing both sides of the story. Making compromises, learning more about the issue, etc.
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Old 2009-06-22, 12:10   Link #63
Midonin
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Looking at the choices in the opening post for series that are somehow destroying the industy:

There's one that's not even on the air yet and was announced a few hours before this topic opened, one that I will say is, yes, very sexual, one that's actually an OVA (and therefore, more leeway with what it can get away with anyhow), and the last two, despite the fanservicey overtones, actually did a decent job of moving their story along at a good clip.

What a completely random selection.
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Old 2009-06-22, 12:40   Link #64
Nightbat®
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Why do I say it's being popular in the WRONG way, you ask? Before, animators created their own creative stories with good characters, good plots, good development, somewhat realistic references, good setting, good plot devices, and many other things. But it seems that ever since 2005-2006, about 70% of anime has consisted of NOTHING but moe, lolicon, useless fan-service, ecchi, chest groping, people shoving their privates in other people's faces, non-seriousness, lack of discipline, maid outfits, bunny outfits and fetishes!...and now it's going to go WAY TOO FAR. The other 30% being the anime WITHOUT that useless stuff (such as anime from the like the World Masterpiece Theater). And when I say "going way too far", I am referring to titles such as these:
be glad tentacle hentai died down
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Old 2009-06-22, 13:32   Link #65
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
Looking at the choices in the opening post for series that are somehow destroying the industy:

There's one that's not even on the air yet and was announced a few hours before this topic opened, one that I will say is, yes, very sexual.

What a completely random selection.
It is likely that the very announcement of Chu-Bra made the poster start the thread in the first place. This title is one of those that can be easily ignored.

I'll just say that it is the same old shit. I don't mean just the "another fanservice anime" but the same old cry about the decline of the industry. Twenty years later we will forget about them and watch this decade through the pink glasses of nostalgia. Just like the former decades of anime and because PINK GLASSES are so convenient.
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Old 2009-06-22, 14:20   Link #66
Eater of All
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
Again, I'll have to disagree. As seen on the second page, the author of this thread asked for this thread to be closed. Too many people were offering counters, instead of agreeing with their opinion. This seemed to have aggravated the author. So to me, it seems like the author wasn't up for any discussion. A discussion is based on many opinions, counters, etc. If you shut out these counters and try to force a one sided topic, then I do say that maybe the best thing to do is just ignore it. There will be other people who have opinions that differ, and if one can't cope with that, then the best thing to do is ignore it.

If someone started a topic of discussion, than ignoring the issue at hand isn't proper since they are open to discussing both sides of the story. Making compromises, learning more about the issue, etc.
Fair enough. If this topic really is just a rant of a disillusioned viewer and not a proper discussion, then I guess there's nothing more I can say about it. Though I admit I've always hated the "don't watch it" line getting slammed into the face of every person voicing a slightly different opinion, and perhaps I am getting a bit sensitive about it.
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Old 2009-06-22, 14:39   Link #67
Slice of Life
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I'm trying to wrap my brain around the notion that you can "abuse" anime ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireChick View Post
... Tezuka Osamu ... Gundam ...
I've yet to see an anime based on Tezuka's work that I'd rate better than average to bad. And now that I'm already guilty of lèse majesté: same holds for Matsumoto Reij and Go Nagai. And don't let me get started with anything Gundam. On the other hand I haven't watched any of the anime you linked to beyond episode 2 or so. Because IM not so HO they sucked. Still, I watch a lot of anime. Morale: There must be anime beyond Sekirei and Tezuka Osamu somewhere.

Quote:
But it seems that ever since 2005-2006, about 70% of anime has consisted of NOTHING but moe, lolicon, useless fan-service, ecchi, chest groping, people shoving their privates in other people's faces, non-seriousness, lack of discipline, maid outfits, bunny outfits and fetishes!.
I'll give you the non-seriousness and "lack of discipline" (though not the "nothing but"). Which is because anime is
Quote:
popular TV show entertainment
and not a mental boot camp. And not only since 2005. Dominion? Moldiver? Nuku-Nuku? Dirty Pair? And then there is the stuff that wants to be taken serious but cannot be taken serious. Which would bring me back to Gundam ... As for the rest (moe, lolicon, useless fan-service, ecchi, chest groping, people shoving their privates in other people's faces, maid outfits, bunny outfits and fetishes). Let's take a look at chartfag's spring 2009 overview and you show me the 70 percent.

And seriously: you're fine with 30 percent? Then why do you think you have the right to complain?

Quote:
anime WITHOUT that useless stuff (such as anime from the like the World Masterpiece Theater).
Cosette is as moe as moe can be. Heidi too.

Quote:
There's also events in the past that are worth being animated, such as slavery, World War I, the Civil War, the Vietnam War, the Kennedy assassination, the war in Iraq
... the Lewinsky affair and the Super Bowl. Since when is the reason of existence of Japanese animation to teach American history 101?
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Old 2009-06-22, 15:10   Link #68
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The fact is its buisness, plain and simple the media industry globally is suffering heavily because of increasing attacks from the internet.

In the past the media would of been far more willing to take risks on projects it was a more reliable media landscape, people had to rely on the mass media because publishing anything was highly expensive.

But then the computer comes along and changes everything, its like buying a tv then the company throws in the film studio, a transmitter, a radio (plus studio), a printing press and a phone.

The media is competing directly with the people that used to be a part of their audience and even when people watch there shows many choose to watch it online which means the networks loose out on advertising revenue and dvd sales.

tv/films/radio/books all have to be hits because their making back the money the studios spent on making and advertising every project that failed and in this economic enivroment if something is a hit it has to be a blockbuster.

The fact is they've worked out a model that increases the odds of something being a hit product so their going to use every trick in the book to maximise profits because right now their fighting for their survival.

Theres no place for art in the media anymore.
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Old 2009-06-22, 20:21   Link #69
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@Slice of Life: Tezuka-heika's best works have never been animated. In fact, his title is "God of Manga", and that is the medium where he really, really shines. On Nagai Go, heh, show me a faithful adaptation of his manga works and I'll show you Japanese heart attacks en masse.
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Old 2009-06-22, 20:37   Link #70
Irenicus
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So I lol'd at the title and came in and what do I see? A block of text ranting about Tezuka something something ecchi fanservice anime something something. I admit I may be a bit slow in the head right now after a particularly bloodthirsty session of Football Manager, but I don't really get much of it.

I get that the OP doesn't like fanservice anime, badly written ones, the moe trend, or a contracting animation industry in Japan, but that's about it. How is this new news, and how is it such a big, overwhelming controversy that will blow my mind with its awe-inspiring, thought-inducing controversial controversiness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
I'm trying to wrap my brain around the notion that you can "abuse" anime ...
...with tentacles, gang rapes, and psychotic high school girls...

Oh, you mean abusing a medium. Well, that's a little more complicated. The closest thing I can get from his point is that the medium isn't being "used to its full potential," which is both extremely vague and can be said of every medium out there.
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Old 2009-06-22, 21:46   Link #71
Terrestrial Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
be glad tentacle hentai died down
On the contrary it's live and well .
Anyway if someone has been looking at anime as a source some kind of intellectual stimulation or form of art well then I suggest them to watch something else.
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Old 2009-06-22, 21:47   Link #72
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
On the contrary it's live and well .
Anyway if someone has been looking at anime as a source some kind of intellectual stimulation or form of art well then I suggest them to watch something else.
Again, depends on the individual series. Clearly, not every series is going to be a masterpiece, but they are out there.
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Old 2009-06-22, 21:49   Link #73
Terrestrial Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Again, depends on the individual series. Clearly, not every series is going to be a masterpiece, but they are out there.
True, alright let me rephrase that into main source instead of a source.
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Old 2009-06-22, 22:11   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
...with tentacles, gang rapes, and psychotic high school girls...
I wasn't even familiar with some of these terms until 4th year High School Anime is definitely changing nowadays.
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Old 2009-06-22, 22:42   Link #75
Zalis
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On the subject at hand, I'm not alone among AS members in thinking that the industry has taken a turn for the worse over the past couple of years. The range of subject matter has narrowed greatly and seems largely designed to sell more hugpillows to 20-yo Japanese otaku. I'm down to just a couple of shows each season, and I don't expect to see things change much until the Japanese economy turns around. When money's scarce, only shows with a solid expected revenue stream will get the green light.
Let me propose another theory to explain the shifting genres: the increase in Japanese-otakubait shows is a direct result of the decline in anime sales in North America and elsewhere around the world. Take a look back to 2002-2004, when you had more series like Haibane Renmei, Paranoia Agent, Kaleido Star, Witch Hunter Robin, Last Exile, ROD TV, Trinity Blood, Gankutsuou, Chrono Crusade, Koi Kaze, Kino's Journey, Kurau Phantom Memory, Scrapped Princess, Texhnolyze, GitS:SAC, etc. Whatever the relative merits of these shows, they were all relatively free of the cheap/exploitative elements that the OP railed against.

Back then, foreign sales were higher, and the R1 industry was healthy enough to directly contribute to the financing of some of those series. Back then, it was more feasible to make anime that wasn't directly intended for hardcore Japanese otaku, because they were likely to make up the difference in overseas licensing and sales. But ever since we the overseas fanbase became more interested in making excuses to stick to fansubs ("waah waah, dubs suck, subtitles are too ugly, DVD resolution is too low") instead of supporting the kinds of shows we liked, those kinds of shows have dwindled away. Now, I'm not trying to say "I'm perfect and you all are a bunch of dirty pirates," because I'm certainly a dirty pirate as well. And I'm not saying that nobody here buys any anime, because I know they do. What I am saying is that we as non-Japanese fans need to take a look at ourselves and our actions, and what role they've played in bringing things to the state they're in today.

Personally, I don't mind the Kanokon/Yumeria/Magikano/Sekirei/(anything based on visual novel) types of anime. In fact, it annoys me more when I'm watching a fun and sexy fanservice series that kills the mood by actually bringing some serious plot in.

---------------
tl; dr -- You can't blame studios for creating anime for the fans who actually buy it.
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Old 2009-06-23, 00:14   Link #76
0utf0xZer0
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@Zalis:

Your post convinced me to do a little looking around on the anidb calandar, and I want to ask:

Am I the only one that thinks that when it comes to moe and fanservice, there was a much more noticeable increase in such material between 2002 and 2004/2005 area than there was between 2004/2005 and now?

I'm also curious as to whether anyone thinks that factors such as rising production costs and the switch to shorter 12-13 episode runs have an influence... I've noticed that a lot of fanservice series are a) 12-13 episode and b) often come across as quite low budget (Akikan anyone?).

Edit: and by the same token, when was the last time anyone greenlit an 74 episode epic like Monster? You don't see many 50+ episode shows anymore.
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Old 2009-06-23, 00:24   Link #77
Asf
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Most of the TV shows that people refer to as "classics" were created as children's shows. (Gundam, Macross, Yamato, City Hunter, Candy Candy, Orange Road, etc. etc.)
There are still plenty of children's shows being made today, and they're tamer than they've ever been (lol @ Dragonball censorship); watch those and be happy.

The late-night otaku market evolved from the OVA market, which has always been full of sex and violence. You're only just now noticing in the 21st century because the internet has brought it to your attention.
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Old 2009-06-23, 03:00   Link #78
npcomplete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zalis View Post
Personally, I don't mind the Kanokon/Yumeria/Magikano/Sekirei/(anything based on visual novel) types of anime. In fact, it annoys me more when I'm watching a fun and sexy fanservice series that kills the mood by actually bringing some serious plot in.
I think this is what killed Dragonaut btw. In fact it went beyond that: they threw in lots of gratuitous fan service that went completely unacknowledged in favor concentrating on the cheesy serious story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
@Zalis:

Your post convinced me to do a little looking around on the anidb calandar, and I want to ask:

Am I the only one that thinks that when it comes to moe and fanservice, there was a much more noticeable increase in such material between 2002 and 2004/2005 area than there was between 2004/2005 and now?

I'm also curious as to whether anyone thinks that factors such as rising production costs and the switch to shorter 12-13 episode runs have an influence... I've noticed that a lot of fanservice series are a) 12-13 episode and b) often come across as quite low budget (Akikan anyone?).

Edit: and by the same token, when was the last time anyone greenlit an 74 episode epic like Monster? You don't see many 50+ episode shows anymore.
I find this curious too. When I scanned through my backlog this and last season, then checked chartfag from Slice_of_Life's suggestion above, the shows with prominent fanservice are still in the minority. And shows concentrating on explicit fanservice are even more rare! We had none last season and only one this season: Queen's Blade and again only one for next season: Fight Ippatsu Juuden-chan for TV shows. OVAs do contain a couple more though.

Overall per year.. this is just my guess, maybe the fan-service has increased in the past 2 or so years, but certainly not by any amount to really displace all other types of content.

Now if you include "anything not serious", ok you might have a case depending on how you define serious.. but in my opinion, entertainment, whether it is considered art or not, no matter the genre, no matter if it is commercial or free, is meant to be emotionally stimulating first and foremost. That it can also be intellectually stimulating is only a bonus.
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Old 2009-06-23, 09:08   Link #79
Slice of Life
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Maybe we can agree that the April startes are a sample for the full year? In that case, the TV shows of the even years 2000-2008 are here:
2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008.

Not all of them where subbed or licensed of course, I'd even go and provide a list without the unsubbed "noise" if that helps.

I also would say that the stuff that is associated with the "hugpillow hugging 20-yo Japanese otaku" was already around in 2002, long before the US bubble burst. (2006 was the last year when the US industry was licensing stuff left and right IIRC). One should not forget however that almost everything we watch are otaku shows (or shows for children and otaku) and the few mainstream shows typically don't make it here.

Look at the lists by yourself and answer these questions:
  1. How many shows do I know?
  2. How many are among my favorites?
  3. How many were at least watchable?
  4. How many would I try out if they started today?
  5. How many would I drop right away?
Maybe we'll be a bit wiser afterwards and can stop judging the recent history of anime based on belly feelings.
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Old 2009-06-23, 09:50   Link #80
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Maybe we can agree that the April startes are a sample for the full year? In that case, the TV shows of the even years 2000-2008 are here:
2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008.

Not all of them where subbed or licensed of course, I'd even go and provide a list without the unsubbed "noise" if that helps.

I also would say that the stuff that is associated with the "hugpillow hugging 20-yo Japanese otaku" was already around in 2002, long before the US bubble burst. (2006 was the last year when the US industry was licensing stuff left and right IIRC). One should not forget however that almost everything we watch are otaku shows (or shows for children and otaku) and the few mainstream shows typically don't make it here.
Important note: Spring 2008's shows technically include Macross F as well, but since it had a preview in December 2007 it's not listed as an April 2008 show on anidb. Just wanted to point that out.

Anyway, I may respond to the other questions when I have more time. For now, I'm just going to say that I didn't really realize how much "hugpillow" stuff there was around by 2002. And ironically... one of the two shows I've seen from April 2000 is responsible for kicking off the harem boom.
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