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Old 2009-06-25, 21:56   Link #81
grey_1960
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Good job on Mr.2 Its a shame he went down but he went down fighting and saving his friends. Mr. 2 would have made a good crew member of the straw hat gang. On another note I am really glad the crew is moving on. I can't wait to see what marine HQ look like. Whitebeard vs. world government will be one of the best battles. I can't wait to see some of the admirals duke it out with the pirates. For the WG to bring a lot of heavy hitter White Beard is very powerful.
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Old 2009-06-25, 22:26   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Not killing off characters when it was very assured that they would die (i.e. Pell and that girl's father from Skypiea) really cheapens the overall tone/seriousness of the drama. It completely destroys the impact of having a sense of tragedy and takes away from the severity of the situation. This is a story about pirates, and the life of a pirate is not pretty.

Honestly now, if not one person dies in this upcoming war, will you be satisfied?
Merry died. Unless its assumed that its spirit lived on in the Thousand Sunny.

But If you are talking about people than I cant really think of any besides the ones that had died before.

Well with a lot of the situations that the characters have gone through (ex: Nami and her village) Death would have been much easier.
I dont think not killing completely destroys the sense of tragedy or takes away the from the severity of the situation.
I mean it would have been less tragic for sanji if zeff died saving him rather than him fiding out he ate his own leg and gave up all his food for him. I understand the story would have changed completely, but im just trying to say that its not just death thats tragic
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Old 2009-06-25, 22:45   Link #83
Tommy
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Not killing off characters when it was very assured that they would die (i.e. Pell and that girl's father from Skypiea) really cheapens the overall tone/seriousness of the drama. It completely destroys the impact of having a sense of tragedy and takes away from the severity of the situation. This is a story about pirates, and the life of a pirate is not pretty.
I do actually agree with this, Oda lost a lot of credibility with these stunts.
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Old 2009-06-25, 22:54   Link #84
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I do actually agree with this, Oda lost a lot of credibility with these stunts.
Why? Even though the characters may not be that strong offensively, almost all are pretty good in terms of durability. So, it has to be a really exceptional case for a character to die. As long as he can come up with a good excuse not to kill a character I don't see a problem with it. After seeing the pirates surviving in Impel Down, it becomes easy to believe the survivals of the other kind.

And it is not like there is ever a need to kill a character. An adventure that is all about survival. Anyway, this may be the first time that he may actually kill a character this way.
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:14   Link #85
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Why? Even though the characters may not be that strong offensively, almost all are pretty good in terms of durability. So, it has to be a really exceptional case for a character to die. As long as he can come up with a good excuse not to kill a character I don't see a problem with it. After seeing the pirates surviving in Impel Down, it becomes easy to believe the survivals of the other kind.
We're talking about a bomb with a 5 Km destructive radius and huge pillar of lightning striking down on a normal man, and yet the victims of those attacks came out completely unscathed, as if nothing ever happened. These instances had nothing to do with durability. They just miraculously happened to circumvent said means of destruction. Face it, Oda just doesn't like to kill off his characters in the present time line and that's all there is to it. There was no legitimate explanation whatsoever as to how they survived the aforementioned cases. It was BS, nothing more.
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:48   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
We're talking about a bomb with a 5 Km destructive radius and huge pillar of lightning striking down on a normal man, and yet the victims of those attacks came out completely unscathed, as if nothing ever happened. These instances had nothing to do with durability. They just miraculously happened to circumvent said means of destruction. Face it, Oda just doesn't like to kill off his characters in the present time line and that's all there is to it. There was no legitimate explanation whatsoever as to how they survived the aforementioned cases. It was BS, nothing more.

I think its safe to say that the Big 3 has done some pretty ridiculous things....
But Oda still got them beat....
Lets hope Oda doesn't pull too many naruto's lol
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:52   Link #87
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Before the explosion we were shown a scene of where Pell was, way above the clouds. So, I have never considered the risk of people getting hurt with that explosion, as long as the bomb was in the sky. Secondly, Crocodile might have given an approximate number based on the strength of the explosive, if not tried before, or if there is a fault in the process, it may just be a misrepresentation of the truth. Onto the topic of Pell surviving that. In a matter of seconds, with that heavy bomb he was able to fly a few kilometers above the ground, so he might have found the time to escape just in time the center of the explosion. For the rest, his transformed state may be the reason for his survival.

Regarding lightning strike. Obviously it was not as strong as Enel was stating. All the other characters that were struck by his lightning, even a weaker character like Usopp survived the accident. So, there is no reason to expect any less for Pagaya. It would be a problem for Pagaya not to survive while Usopp, Sanji, Zoro, and the others survive. Yes, the characters are that much durable.

Have you forgotten that Mr.3 survived getting his water sucked out of his body. In normal sense, he should have a brain damage, yet he survived as if nothing happened. And before that, have you forgotten the baseball bat Usopp ate on his head and his brain? Have you ever known a real life human who can survive that? You should not evaluate the damages using worldly views. Especially if you are following One Piece from the beginning, those endings should not come as a surprise.
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Old 2009-06-25, 23:57   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
We're talking about a bomb with a 5 Km destructive radius and huge pillar of lightning striking down on a normal man, and yet the victims of those attacks came out completely unscathed, as if nothing ever happened. These instances had nothing to do with durability. They just miraculously happened to circumvent said means of destruction. Face it, Oda just doesn't like to kill off his characters in the present time line and that's all there is to it. There was no legitimate explanation whatsoever as to how they survived the aforementioned cases. It was BS, nothing more.
Exactly, these are the only two instances where I thought the characters should've died to preserve the dramatic effects of the story and their respective sacrifices. When Oda reveled that both characters were alive and well, he lost credibility and thus every life threatening event towards a character since then I treat as nothing more than a one of Oda's bluffs. This just serves to waste time, not to mention the dramatic effect is lost.

While I enjoyed this chapter, there is no question in my mind that Mr. 2 will live through this, and thus the dramatic effect has been lessened a bit for me in that sense. Other parts of this chapter, such as Luffy realizing he couldn't save Bon chan were really great though.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Why? Even though the characters may not be that strong offensively, almost all are pretty good in terms of durability. So, it has to be a really exceptional case for a character to die. As long as he can come up with a good excuse not to kill a character I don't see a problem with it. After seeing the pirates surviving in Impel Down, it becomes easy to believe the survivals of the other kind.

And it is not like there is ever a need to kill a character. An adventure that is all about survival. Anyway, this may be the first time that he may actually kill a character this way.
In my eyes it's all about presentation, these characters, along with others, appeared to be making the ultimate sacrifice to save others. Much like Bellamare did to save Nami and Nojiko. When time after time these brave and courageous acts that are portrayed as life ending sacrifices to save others, result in nothing more than a few bruises. This can be a little frustrating to say the least. Mainly when the situation arises again, because we the reader know (for the most part) that everything's gonna be just fine, thus the tension isn't as high.

Last edited by Tommy; 2009-06-26 at 00:08.
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Old 2009-06-26, 00:06   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
While I enjoyed this chapter, there is no question in my mind that Mr. 2 will live through this, and thus the dramatic effect has been lessened a bit for me in that sense.
That may be true. But, you will now wonder about how he will survive (Luffy surviving the damage of the poison was a pretty good experience for me), escape, and meet with Luffy or his okama people in the future....

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In my eyes it's all about presentation, these characters, along with others, appeared to be making the ultimate sacrifice to save others. Much like Bellamare did to save Nami and Nojiko. When time after time these brave and courageous acts that are portrayed as life ending sacrifices to save others, result in nothing more than a few bruises. This can be a little frustrating to say the least. Mainly when the situation arises again, because we the reader know (for the most part) that everything's gonna be just fine, thus the tension isn't as high.
I think there was a big difference between Bellemare's case. Bellemare knew that she would die and acted after accepting that fact.

Pell knew that he was going to save others while he may not survive. His only thought was to save others, instead of worrying about his future.

Pagaya assumed that he will die with the lightning (without getting struck by it before, only hearing about it, which may include Enel throwing people down the cloud for a certain ending as a combination of two). It is not like what Bellemare thought about herself, when she experience death herself through the people around her many times. Anyways, Pagaya didn't want his daughter to experience that presumed fate. But, as the story progressed we saw that Enel's power was not as accurate as the number suggested. Considering that we haven't seen a single character turned into coal both inside and outside. Instead they only had a temporary change in skin color, and experienced the sleeping effect associated with that.
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Old 2009-06-26, 00:34   Link #90
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Its really the how that matters. I mean you knew that eventually Luffy will be reunited with his crew, but how that happens is what matters.
Just because you know something is going to happen, doesnt mean that it will lose it's dramatic effect.
Yes Mr.2 will probably survive, but what I really want to know is how he gets out of that mess.
Of course some of the character's survivals were stretched but I can only think of the 2 cases already mentioned before.

But saying that the dramatic effect was ruined just because you knew the outcome then you might as well just read a story's beginning and end and call it a day.
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Old 2009-06-26, 00:36   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Haired_Shanks View Post
I think its safe to say that the Big 3 has done some pretty ridiculous things....
But Oda still got them beat....
Lets hope Oda doesn't pull too many naruto's lol
Your post (and a few others in here) reminded me of another post on another forum.

Spoiler:


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Originally Posted by D Lusion AL View Post
Its really the how that matters. I mean you knew that eventually Luffy will be reunited with his crew, but how that happens is what matters.
Just because you know something is going to happen, doesnt mean that it will lose it's dramatic effect.

Yes Mr.2 will probably survive, but what I really want to know is how he gets out of that mess.
Of course some of the character's survivals were stretched but I can only think of the 2 cases already mentioned before.

But saying that the dramatic effect was ruined just because you knew the outcome then you might as well just read a story's beginning and end and call it a day.
Nice.


On topic I hope next weeks chapter will focus on other besides Luffy's gang, and I'ma laugh hard if Luffy's gang beats Newgates Crew to the execution sight.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-06-26 at 01:25.
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Old 2009-06-26, 01:03   Link #92
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Before the explosion we were shown a scene of where Pell was, way above the clouds. So, I have never considered the risk of people getting hurt with that explosion, as long as the bomb was in the sky.
I wasn't talking about the people of Alabasta. I was talking about Pell, and of course I knew that the bomb exploded in the air. That was the whole point so that he could save the people within the vicinity of where it was placed.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Secondly, Crocodile might have given an approximate number based on the strength of the explosive, if not tried before, or if there is a fault in the process, it may just be a misrepresentation of the truth.
A person as calculating as Crocodile making such a statement certainly does have credibility. Oda puts in these statements for a reason, you know.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Onto the topic of Pell surviving that. In a matter of seconds, with that heavy bomb he was able to fly a few kilometers above the ground, so he might have found the time to escape just in time the center of the explosion. For the rest, his transformed state may be the reason for his survival.
Nothing but speculation on your part here. What we see in the manga though, is that the bomb actually blows up while he's still holding on to it (Chapter 208 - Pages 17 - 18). This evidence suggests he should have died.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Regarding lightning strike. Obviously it was not as strong as Enel was stating. All the other characters that were struck by his lightning, even a weaker character like Usopp survived the accident. So, there is no reason to expect any less for Pagaya. It would be a problem for Pagaya not to survive while Usopp, Sanji, Zoro, and the others survive. Yes, the characters are that much durable.
The strawhats are exceptionally resilient because they are the main characters. They can't die, at least not until they achieve their dreams. And once again, Pagaya (thank you for stating his name for me) is only a normal human. Enel's lightning strike should be able to kill a mere ordinary human, unless you're trying to suggest to me that it is really that weak.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Have you forgotten that Mr.3 survived getting his water sucked out of his body. In normal sense, he should have a brain damage, yet he survived as if nothing happened. And before that, have you forgotten the baseball bat Usopp ate on his head and his brain? Have you ever known a real life human who can survive that? You should not evaluate the damages using worldly views. Especially if you are following One Piece from the beginning, those endings should not come as a surprise.
Nope. I haven't forgotten any of this. I know that significant characters in One Piece (note that I said significant, as in characters that actually matter) have a ridiculously high fortitude for taking damage and abuse. Cannon fodder, on the other hand (such as the aforementioned Pagaya), are no where near as impervious, as can be seen from many examples throughout the story so far.

I'm getting the impression that you're using feats of resilience to justify Oda's decisions to not kill off his characters, but really now such feats can only go so far as an excuse. If what you say is really Oda's excuse for the lack of death in this story (which I highly doubt considering that he himself has stated he prefers to crush the dreams of the wicked as a means of teaching them a lesson, not to mention he doesn't like to kill off his characters), there would be absolutely no sense of mortality. For a story about pirates that involves venture, that sounds highly unlikely and completely goes against the potential dangers a pirate would indisputably encounter.

What I'm telling you here is, there would never be any concern or foreboding danger that someone could die, if the resilience you speak of is always there to keep anyone alive. And we know this is not true since Oda has killed off characters in the past, so he's simply just choosing not to kill off his characters in the present time. Tell me, what makes a character who died in the past any different than a character in the present time line, durability wise? Whether the character is from the past or present, they are all still Oda's creations and are subjected to the sames rules of mortality.
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Old 2009-06-26, 01:48   Link #93
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Pell surviving...I can somewhat forgive. He at least had a Devil Fruit and those things can be damn near magical at times (or at least more magical than they already are ). Pagaya, though...he had nothing but a funny mustache and squinty eyes. There is no way he should have survived (that we know of at least), and really no reason for him to have survived (considering his daughter seemingly got over his death almost immediatly). I can partially forgive Pell, but never that old bastard Pagaya.
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Old 2009-06-26, 02:18   Link #94
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Waste several pages beating a dead horse in a chapter thread, rather than actually discussing the chapter. And we're only 5 pages into the thread.

This is why I don't post here anymore.
Every. Single. Chapter threads for the past several month, quickly derailed into arguments that has little to do with the current chapter.
And all by the same four or five users, every time.

*sigh* The whole point of having sub forum seems to be wasted.
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Old 2009-06-26, 03:08   Link #95
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^I'm one of those people, right ? At least we are actually talking about Bon Clay's possible death and not just making bad Michael Jackson=Bon Clay jokes (as some of the big One Piece forums are doing)...

4 hours remain until Ace's execution. How long does it take to travel from one gate to the next? During the Buster Call on Enies Lobby, it was only 30 minutes or so, right? But was that do to the larger than normal ships, or the current? And, how exactly are they supposed to get through the gate in front of Marineford - specifically, who will let them in?

Whatever the case may be, if the war isn't already started, Mold could be correct and Luffy and company could arrive before Whitebeard...which could become an interesting turn of events...

Additionally, I do like the idea that Buggy could steal most of the noteriety for the Impel Down fiasco. Specifically, of the 200+ escapees, I expect many of them are from Level 1 or 2, so the person they recognize as their saviour is going to be Buggy (or Mr. 3). So, if any of them spread the word about the escape, they would probably reffrence Buggy quite abit...or at least that is my fondest wish for Buggy: elevation to Supernova status .

Also, I really liked how some of the pirates excalimed that they were giving up on their life of crime, and were going to return to their family. Just goes to show that correctional facilities can actually accomplish their goals...

Last edited by james0246; 2009-06-26 at 03:20.
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Old 2009-06-26, 03:10   Link #96
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Waste several pages beating a dead horse in a chapter thread, rather than actually discussing the chapter. And we're only 5 pages into the thread.

This is why I don't post here anymore.
Every. Single. Chapter threads for the past several month, quickly derailed into arguments that has little to do with the current chapter.
And all by the same four or five users, every time.

*sigh* The whole point of having sub forum seems to be wasted.
Hey I just started reading One Piece after having given up on it years ago, because Naruto and Bleach started to suck and I needed a new manga to read. I am just saying that the these "hey look this guy might be dead just like the other 30 times I pulled the same stunt" is keeping the drama to a low.

It's still a good manga (sure is a whole lot better than Naruto, and Bleach) just not the GREATEST MANGA in the world I kept hearing about.

As for the Impel Down arc, it was pretty good. The one thing I did like was that scene where Hannyabell pointed out that Impel Down does do a lot of good, and how Impel Down is needed. Now let's see some more of that, and less of the stereotypical shonen stuff. If you look at the series closer the peace of the world outside Grandline seems to be based on the Pirates and World Goverment's opposing each other.

If the World Goverment defeats all the Pirates than they will have free reign to broaden the opression using the Marines, if the Pirates overthrow the world goverment they will be given free reign and the world will become chaotic. Compare the New Wolrd to the rest of the Grand Line, than the Grand Line to the rest of the world.

Now that's an interesting idea and I hope Oda digs deeper into it from now on.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2009-06-26 at 03:29.
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Old 2009-06-26, 04:29   Link #97
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Waste several pages beating a dead horse in a chapter thread, rather than actually discussing the chapter. And we're only 5 pages into the thread.

This is why I don't post here anymore.
Every. Single. Chapter threads for the past several month, quickly derailed into arguments that has little to do with the current chapter.
And all by the same four or five users, every time.

*sigh* The whole point of having sub forum seems to be wasted.
I agree with you 100%

These forums are one of worsts out there to discuss One Piece and its chapters/episodes. Not that many active posters here and half of posters seems to have some silly grudges about series and since every second post seems to be made against One Piece people who arrive here gets generally bad picture about series anyway.

Generally if you like to seriosly discuss about OP and its chapters you should just find another forums where people actually care about series.

In these forums we have 5-6 active posters where 2-3 openly hates series entirely or have weird reasons for their bashing and often first 2-3 pages are related for chapter discussion while pages 4-12 are filled with 2-3 members retarded arguments on each where no one takes others posts seriosly.

I suggest that people who are actually intrested about series head to Arlong park...
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Old 2009-06-26, 05:07   Link #98
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Generally if you like to seriosly discuss about OP and its chapters you should just find another forums where people actually care about series.
So wait a second...how were you discussing OP or its chapters in your post again?

Seems like your bashing people more then anything else, or have I misread something?

Hypocrite.
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:24   Link #99
Red-Haired_Shanks
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@Master Mold


What the hell are u talking about?
Nobody's dick-riding Oda...
I think One Piece is way better than the other 2??
OF COURSE!!!!!!
I was just saying that One Piece is allowed a few dumbass fake-deaths when we look at the other 2...
People surviving situations where they should have obviously died...
But you are right though I shouldn't even bring up the other 2 on here...
Its just what came to mind because I DO READ THEM..
And whoever made that quote needs a tampon...
Nothing is ever that serious
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Old 2009-06-26, 09:39   Link #100
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Anyway When you look into this chapter you can probably assume that Ace will be saved, but what you dont know is who will save him.

It could be Luffy, Whitebeard, Dragon, or maybe someone we havent even met yet.

Jymbei wanted to go with him because he wanted to stop the war which will happen when Whitebeard arrives. What he really wants is to get there not only before the exicution but before Whitebeard. (He said something about it in the earlier chapters I cant remember which one)

In other words, Is this whole war they are talking about going to happen, or will they be saved from it for now.
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