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Old 2009-06-26, 23:40   Link #41
Yu Ominae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since Maximilian looks like Julius Ceasar with the crown and the same ambition of conquests in order to gain absolute power over other "rivals", it's a very interesting analogy you brought up here.

Since we speak of Gallia as where this country might stand in that fictional portrayal of Europe, it's quite difficult to determine exactly where since there's a desert popping out of nowhere in episode 8. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Gallia took its main inspiration from France (for its royal court, with a Richelieu-like prime minister) and Germany (mainly the villages and other scenery).

Meanwhile, I wonder how come we haven't seen much of the Western Federation forces. I would sure want to see them to give myself an idea of what country they were inspired from.
Didn't realize this too. Does anyone know of the official VC blog entry where the staff discusses this analogy?
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:03   Link #42
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I think this is best place to discuss this, but what's up with Gallia's geography? I don't know why, but it feels weird to have such diverse landscapes in such a small country. I mean so far we've seen grassy hills, forests, deserts, snowcapped mountains, and eventually barren plains and sandy beaches. It wouldn't be so odd if there was more land in Gallia, but as it is I just don't feel like all that could be there.

Then again, I'm not a geography scholar so maybe these kinds of places actually exist?
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:29   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I think this is best place to discuss this, but what's up with Gallia's geography? I don't know why, but it feels weird to have such diverse landscapes in such a small country. I mean so far we've seen grassy hills, forests, deserts, snowcapped mountains, and eventually barren plains and sandy beaches. It wouldn't be so odd if there was more land in Gallia, but as it is I just don't feel like all that could be there.

Then again, I'm not a geography scholar so maybe these kinds of places actually exist?
It's a bit unusual, but bear in mind that Japan itself has all of the above terrain except for the deserts. It's a bit of a stretch, but given that Gallia also bears the hallmarks of events long ago, it's certainly not out of the question.

Oh, by the way, this would be the right thread for this discussion.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:11   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I think this is best place to discuss this, but what's up with Gallia's geography? I don't know why, but it feels weird to have such diverse landscapes in such a small country. I mean so far we've seen grassy hills, forests, deserts, snowcapped mountains, and eventually barren plains and sandy beaches. It wouldn't be so odd if there was more land in Gallia, but as it is I just don't feel like all that could be there.
All of those are not unusual even in a small country. We've got all of those besides deserts and sand beaches in Switzerland for instance. Or for another comparison look at Lebanon on the map; from west to east: beaches -> snow covered mountains (in winter) -> the fertile Bekaa valley -> the Syrian desert; and it doesn't take long to get through them all.

Note though that the Barious Desert is not a natural occurrence, but the result of the so-called "Darcsen calamity". Taking that into consideration (and that there is no snow-covered mountain in the game that I remember of) the geography isn't that unnatural.
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:43   Link #45
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Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
Note though that the Barious Desert is not a natural occurrence, but the result of the so-called "Darcsen calamity". Taking that into consideration (and that there is no snow-covered mountain in the game that I remember of) the geography isn't that unnatural.
I think I was going off the anime for the mountains part, and I guess they weren't really "snow-capped" just there was a snow storm and I associated the two .

The desert was really what really stuck out to me, but then with the supernatural explanation it does makes sense.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:39   Link #46
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Got this from the VC2 PSP thread.

Spoiler for Map of Europa:
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Old 2009-07-24, 02:24   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yu Ominae View Post
Got this from the VC2 PSP thread.

Spoiler for Map of Europa:
As someone wrote before, it seems Gallia is indeed one of the Baltic states (probably Lithuania) based on this map while Scandinavia appeared to have vanished somewhere else.

That's funny: the Empire seem to cover Northern Italy as well (see Adriatic Sea).
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Old 2009-07-24, 03:17   Link #48
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Note that this is a map of Europa two years after the event in the first game /manga /anime. It gives us a good idea of how EW II turned out for the Empire and the Federation outside of the Gallian theatre of operations.

It's somehow interesting because the cities that are mentionned on the map are different from those in the maps from the first game (as you can see on the wallpapers on the game's website).

Kira, I wouldn't try to identify countries in the VC universe to any existing European country. This is quite a psychedelic representation of the continent, with proportions stretched in all direction and existing city and sea names pasted all over.
(had a snicker there when I saw that the small Swiss wine-producing village of (st-)Saphorin was a major Federation city).
After all as someone else pointed out Welkin Gunther is based on the Gaul historical figure of Vercingetorix. The Empire and Federation might aswell be a modernised Germania and Roman Empire. Most likely though it came entirely out of the designer's head and they just put it at the most conveniant place on the map without relation to the real world.
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Old 2009-07-24, 06:52   Link #49
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Judging by the map, it's obvious Gallia is based on Finland, the country that fought the Soviet Union & Germany during WW2 & still remain independent during & after the war.
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Old 2009-07-24, 07:56   Link #50
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Of course, what is often left unsaid is that Finland paid a heavy price for that independence. Somehow, we haven't seen Gallia pay that price yet.
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Old 2009-07-24, 10:50   Link #51
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Looks like Italy was shifted a good deal to the east in this depiction. Until I saw the post mentioning the Adriatic and looked for it on the map I assumed it was still relatively close to where it would be in real life.
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Old 2009-07-24, 13:30   Link #52
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Of course, what is often left unsaid is that Finland paid a heavy price for that independence. Somehow, we haven't seen Gallia pay that price yet.
Gallia did paid a price for fighting against the Empire in VC2.
Spoiler for VC2 plot:
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Old 2009-07-24, 14:07   Link #53
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Judging by the map, it's obvious Gallia is based on Finland, the country that fought the Soviet Union & Germany during WW2 & still remain independent during & after the war.
There really aren't any analogies that work better than really really general ones. Heck, I've heard that Gallia only has a population of 420,000 and a military force of 92,000. If there's any truth to those numbers, then Gallia is nothing like any European country (and Maximillian is a total wuss for not wiping them out at the get-go).
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Old 2009-07-24, 15:07   Link #54
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Judging by the map, it's obvious Gallia is based on Finland, the country that fought the Soviet Union & Germany during WW2 & still remain independent during & after the war.
Gallia is obviously not based on Finland, because the latter does not exist in the world of Valkyria. Please refer the map below:

http://valkyria2.jp/images/bg.jpg

You will note that Finland, Sweden and Norway are all missing from the map, because none of the territories exist.

The most likely position of Gallia on the (real) world map would actually cover three countries, Latvia, Poland and Russia. On a side note, Latvia is known for its infamous Waffen-SS legions that fought for Latvia's own independence during the war and their (controversial) deeds are still celebrated until this day.

Moreover, it should be noted that the map of Europa had been altered and does not correspond very well to its real-life counterpart: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_Europe.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
There really aren't any analogies that work better than really really general ones. Heck, I've heard that Gallia only has a population of 420,000 and a military force of 92,000.
That is correct. Gallia boasts no more than a half-million population defended by an approximately 100,000 men army. Not a very large country nor a very large force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If there's any truth to those numbers, then Gallia is nothing like any European country (and Maximillian is a total wuss for not wiping them out at the get-go).
The problem with Max is that he had been engaged in what seems to be almost a game with the Gallians. It should be known that he did not necessarily wish for the destruction of Gallia, but rather, if possible, use Gallia. To be sure, he was definitely not in this gig for the Empire.

I hope the anime would do a good job laying out the events in future episodes.

- Tak
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Old 2009-07-24, 15:36   Link #55
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That is correct. Gallia boasts no more than a half-million population defended by an approximately 100,000 men army. Not a very large country nor a very large force.
Actually, with some 20% of the population under arms, that's an absolutely huge mobilization rate. While Gallia does so by incorporating women into its military, the manpower squeeze must have been horrid. By comparison, no country in World War II ever managed to have such a high mobilization rate for any degree of time.

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The problem with Max is that he had been engaged in what seems to be almost a game with the Gallians. It should be known that he did not necessarily wish for the destruction of Gallia, but rather, if possible, use Gallia. To be sure, he was definitely not in this gig for the Empire.
Tak, at 420,000 population, Gallia has only about 30% more people than Luxembourg in World War II. How could anyone accomplish anything if they fail to beat Luxembourg, for crying out loud? Heck, that would be military competence dipping into Fredendall territory! That explanation had better be darned good.
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Old 2009-07-24, 15:36   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
That is correct. Gallia boasts no more than a half-million population defended by an approximately 100,000 men army. Not a very large country nor a very large force.
But we don't know how many troops Maximillian was allowed to bring with him since it seems he was never really popular amongst the other members of the royal family.

Selvaria tells Maximillian late in the game that "the enemie's numbers numbers are fasting approaching that of our own". So if we look at this as actual fact and even after we take into the account the attrition of combat, it seems Maximillian never brought a sizable force.

If Gallia has an Army the size 92,000, Maximillian probably only brought a force of 120,000 but with a high concentration of mobile units. In the game's introduction of the Empire's attack, all the attacking army groups were given the "Panzer" designation.

I think that was the real force multiplier for the Empire with their Blitzkrieg tactics that allowed them to sweep through the country. However when they got bogged down around Vasel Bridge, they lost their edge and got dragged into a bloody slogging match.
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Old 2009-07-24, 15:39   Link #57
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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
I Gallia has an Army the size 92,000, Maximillian probably only brought a force of 120,000 but with a high concentration of mobile units. In the game's introduction of the Empire's attack, all the attacking army groups were given the "Panzer" designation.
We know that Gallia was far from being fully mobilized at the beginning of the invasion, so their military force couldn't have been much larger than 40,000, and it was conceivably much smaller than that. After all, they had to scrape the very bottom of the barrel to get as many troops as they got - with child soldiers serving on the front lines and all that that entails.
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Old 2009-07-24, 16:37   Link #58
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
How could anyone accomplish anything if they fail to beat Luxembourg, for crying out loud? Heck, that would be military competence dipping into Fredendall territory! That explanation had better be darned good.
ROFL, you are telling me!

Honestly, that is one of the doubts I had in the game, although as the game progressed, I was given several implications that might assist in explaining the cause for Max's failure.

And no, I am not fully convinced myself.

Anyway, we know that Max is not exactly the court's favorite, and was sent to Gallia because it wasn't considered by the rest of the Empire as something of significant difficulty and thus even if Max had won a victory there, it probably would not matter to the Empire in the least. So right here we can semi-guess just how much support the Empire was willing to provide for the Gallian campaign.

Spoiler for Game:

Then, look at what Max got as personnel? Pretty much a group of outcasts. You have a general hated by most of his colleagues, a minority not trusted by his colleagues, and someone nobody has any idea of. Not exactly a successful assembly, if you ask me.

Spoiler for Game:


- Tak
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2009-07-24 at 17:34. Reason: Added spoiler tags.
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Old 2009-07-24, 18:18   Link #59
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Then, look at what Max got as personnel? Pretty much a group of outcasts. You have a general hated by most of his colleagues, a minority not trusted by his colleagues, and someone nobody has any idea of. Not exactly a successful assembly, if you ask me.
Even with crap troops, Maximillian still has superior numbers to Gallia at full deployment. If he only received replacements equal to his losses, then he would have started out with some 100,000 troops. Such a force would have faced off against some 40,000 Gallian troops at most, with 30,000 (7% mobilization) being a more realistic figure.

Given that the Gallian campaign had two effectively separate fronts, the Gallia-Eastern Empire border has to be at least 100km long. Even with 40,000 troops, there wouldn't have been anywhere near enough soldiers to cover the frontage, and the forward elements should have been easily overwhelmed. Gallia's policy of evacuating civilians from the front would only play into Maximillian's hands as it would constrict the movement of their reserves while giving the Imperial forces free reign to attack wherever they please. With minimum of strategic depth, Gallia should have popped like a balloon under the Imperial invasion.

Now, I know about Finland and the Winter War, but the Red Army's initial performance there was the very model of incompetence, with the field commanders (and Stalin) ignored the advice of the General Staff. If we were to extend that analogy to Gallia, then it'd only mean that Maximillian was as incompetent as Voroshilov. While he might have had a reason to delay his advance, failing to crush such a small country would only lead to his dismissal; and that would only serve to end whatever dreams he might have had.

This was bad enough when I thought that Gallia was a Belgium-equivalent with some 8 million people and 650,000 under arms. With Gallia as a Luxembourg-equivalent, it gets downright embarassing.


Oh, and Tak, watch those spoilers. There are people reading this thread who haven't played the game (myself inclusive).
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Old 2009-07-24, 21:22   Link #60
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In a meta-sense, I can only hazard the guess that Sega wanted a David vs. Goliath battle, with the David being much smaller than usual. Really, there are very real advantages of occupying Gallia quickly, whether the other royalist factions personally liked Max or not. How the story played out was a very clear indication to me that Gallia had "plot armour" written all over it.

The other explanation I can think of is a Xanatos Gambit on the Empire's part, as it deals with the Federation first. As the setting for VC2 indicates, Max's adventure had broken the economic base of Gallia. Who knows, those two years were enough to force concessions out of the Federation, and the Empire feels ready to properly break Gallia. If VC2 concludes with another Gallian victory, we can all safely say that yeah, the Empire doesn't know the first thing about fighting wars.
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