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Old 2009-06-26, 19:01   Link #161
CrowKenobi
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I personally like the DC Comics definition of multiverse: universes occupying the same space but vibrating at different frequencies...

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Old 2009-06-26, 19:53   Link #162
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
We really do don't we. Considering the amount of Sci-Fi and tropes in this series it would go an incredibly long way. And yes Kyon is the Negotiator, though not quite the gentleman in black. The Data Entity is probably the Database from SRW-W.
I mentioned in another thread that Ji Edel of SRWZ is Haruhi awakened and totally evil.

Aliens? Database, Balmar, actually too many.
Time travellers? Raul and Fiona with Excellence, Duminass etc.
Espers? The SRX Team, Kusuha and Bullet, GanEdens and too many others.
Sliders? Shura, the 'Time Divers', Roa, Dark Brain, Holy War participants and actually everyone else lol

SRW is Haruhi's perfect world lol
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
I personally like the DC Comics definition of multiverse: universes occupying the same space but vibrating at different frequencies...

Yea its similar to what Kaisos mentioned. But seems like physics is even more imaginative than fiction and came up with a multiverse even broader than that.

With the Level III multiverse being a multiverse that follows the many worlds intepretation, all universes floating in the multiverse is just like a Marvel Multiverse. So actually the Marvel Multiverse is just one universe in real physics.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:00   Link #163
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lol just think of mecha science fiction as science fiction with hotbloodedness, burning passion, spirits of steel and guts.

I used to love Haruhi's hands most other than her eyes.

In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually be the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:08   Link #164
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
With the Level III multiverse being a multiverse that follows the many worlds intepretation, all universes floating in the multiverse is just like a Marvel Multiverse. So actually the Marvel Multiverse is just one universe in real physics.
Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually be the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.
And yet Mikuru is still crap at sports, as we see again last episode.

Poor Mikuru.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:09   Link #165
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
lol just think of mecha science fiction as science fiction with hotbloodedness, burning passion, spirits of steel and guts.
Still, it's hard to top setting of A-boms that you're sitting on to challenge the enemies dominance of your home planets orbit.

It has a sorta "WE ARE APES WHO WILL TEAR OFF YOUR SKULL AND DEFECATE ON YOUR BRAIN" vibe.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
In the future, humans many not need to have any physical action at all, that's why they may become weak. Time Travellers could actually the physically fittest humans of their time because of their need to go back in time.
Or it could be that in the future, almost everyone lives in space colonies on extremely low gravities. Thus even the people who like to be physically active probably don't develop that much musculature.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:12   Link #166
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.

And yet Mikuru is still crap at sports, as we see again last episode.

Poor Mikuru.
I'll rephrase it as 'in the concept of real physics'.

And what I'm pointing out is that by applying real physics theories, scientists actually expect something more fantastic than what was imagined as fiction.

Yes, Mikuru being as weak as she is, could actually be an example of a fit human from the future
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:19   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Still, it's hard to top setting of A-boms that you're sitting on to challenge the enemies dominance of your home planets orbit.

It has a sorta "WE ARE APES WHO WILL TEAR OFF YOUR SKULL AND DEFECATE ON YOUR BRAIN" vibe.

Or it could be that in the future, almost everyone lives in space colonies on extremely low gravities. Thus even the people who like to be physically active probably don't develop that much musculature.
You've not seen what old school mecha can do. Ancient reptilian or demon species who has hidden themselves under the crust because they were defeated by an ancient super weapon, returns to the surface to take over the planet. Sometimes they threaten to blow the planet with anti-matter weapons or some bomb from the core. You wonder what planet will they be left to rule over.

Space invaders from a parallel world of the future, with psychic powers, try to invade Earth and try to capture this super energy technology in the planet's strongest super robot. They cannot achieve that because they cannot defeat this super robot with this energy source that they want so much.

Hmmm low gravity... Scientists growing cells in space found that they can't grow at all. But if its a low gravity planet, yea I think its possible. Time Travellers may actually come from Mars or something.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:31   Link #168
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Dear everybody trying to explain the universe:

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php

Sincerely,
Dakota
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:55   Link #169
C.A.
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Everyone should watch that link, you will learn from it.

An extremely simple explanation of the ideas of the M Theory.
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Old 2009-06-26, 23:03   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
You don't quite comprehend how broken this is, do you. I shall have Atomic Robo give you a better sense of scale here.

Spoiler for size:

If Haruhi sends the Earth back in time to it's original position every 20 days for over 500 years, the effect won't just be earth being in a funky orbital position in our solar system. The Earth will soon NOT be in the Solar system. It may not even be in the Orion arm. It probably won't even be in the milky way galaxy anymore. Changing the recorded history and memory of astronomy won't change the fact that everyone is freezing to death due to there being no nearby heat source to keep us alive.
Well, first off, it's every 14 days, but that's not material to the discussion. If perhaps you had bothered reading what I wrote instead of just snipping it out of hand, you might have realized that I wasn't suggesting that Earth moves back to its original position. Quite the contrary. How would she move it to somewhere where, by the bounds of the theory, she has no power? And how does one misread "In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing"? She's not changing the positions of any celestial bodies when she resets time, Earth included. She just subconsciously resets things back two weeks for everyone on Earth, and sub-subconsciously cooks the books so that no one notices that the stars (or planets) are in the wrong places.

But again, it's just a theory, and one with a lot of holes (Yuki's description of her discovery by the Data Overmind, as noted above) and easier explanations (they're stargazing later in the night, also as suggested above), but let's be honest. Just turning back the clock is boring, and this isn't a science paper, it's an anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who says the many-worlds interpretation is actually true? We really can't prove most of the interesting concepts quantum physics comes out with, because we have no way of measuring things like this.

It's really up to the writes of a sci-fi story to define what a "multiverse" is, in this case.
QFT. In my day they called that stuff theoretical physics, and last I checked, no one has yet found any parallel/alternate/whatever universes in order to prove any of it, so it's all just smoke blowing. Nobel-level smoke blowing, admittedly, but a lot of times that's all it is until someone accidentally contaminates the Staphylococcus culture or sticks their hand in front of the Crookes tube.
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Old 2009-06-27, 00:58   Link #171
OkamiNoKaze
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Isn't there an anime Law that says everytime you try to bring logic and reason to an anime, Haruhi-sama kills a cat girl, or something like that. I think they're nearly extinct at this point.
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Old 2009-06-27, 01:02   Link #172
C.A.
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Haruhi is no normal anime. In fact Haruhi-sama invites you to join her in messing up logic, by bringing logic into discussion.

3 years ago we had a great time with such. But people seem to have less interest in such nowadays.
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Old 2009-06-27, 03:19   Link #173
Daniel E.
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Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze View Post
Isn't there an anime Law that says everytime you try to bring logic and reason to an anime, Haruhi-sama kills a cat girl, or something like that. I think they're nearly extinct at this point.
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Old 2009-06-27, 03:21   Link #174
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How about everytime you drag real physics and into a discussion on about her show I kill a catgirl? It sounds more interesting that way.
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Old 2009-06-27, 03:33   Link #175
Daniel E.
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
How about everytime you drag real physics and into a discussion on about her show I kill a catgirl? It sounds more interesting that way.
For what it's worth it, I actually find the current discussion quite interesting.

As for the gif..... I simply remembered it after reading OkamiNoKaze's post and decide to shop it a bit for the lulz of it.
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Old 2009-06-27, 04:18   Link #176
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Bear in mind that some of us don't give a damn about catgirls. Bring on the massacre.

Natch.
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Old 2009-06-27, 05:11   Link #177
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Haruhi knows this, and would replace the catgirl with something you do like.
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Old 2009-06-27, 07:27   Link #178
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Well, first off, it's every 14 days, but that's not material to the discussion. If perhaps you had bothered reading what I wrote instead of just snipping it out of hand, you might have realized that I wasn't suggesting that Earth moves back to its original position. Quite the contrary. How would she move it to somewhere where, by the bounds of the theory, she has no power? And how does one misread "In other words, the position of Mars in the night sky would move forward 14 days each time they do the stargazing"? She's not changing the positions of any celestial bodies when she resets time, Earth included. She just subconsciously resets things back two weeks for everyone on Earth, and sub-subconsciously cooks the books so that no one notices that the stars (or planets) are in the wrong places.
The fact that she doesn't change the earths position every time she resets time is the very problem we're dealing with here. Suppose you have a personal time travel device and you decide to use it to go back 10 minutes into the past while flying on an airplane. The problem here is that 10 minutes ago your exact position HAS no air plane. So you fall into the ocean. If you sent a particular planet into the past, it's position relative to the solar system would change not because you moved it away from the Solar system, but because the solar system moved away from it.

This would only not be an issue if Haruhi really wasn't really sending the earth back in time, but just altering the earth to be in a state almost identical to that initial summer 500 odd years ago. In which case it wouldn't really be time travel. Of course if the loop created didn't actually have anything to do with time travel, one must wonder why it prevented Mikuru from time traveling.
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Damn furries

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Old 2009-06-27, 08:39   Link #179
Jimmy C
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Suppose you have a personal time travel device and you decide to use it to go back 10 minutes into the past while flying on an airplane. The problem here is that 10 minutes ago your exact position HAS no air plane. So you fall into the ocean.
It's a poor time machine that doesn't take relative motion into account. Most of the sf time machines that even bother to mention this detail also mention that they reverse (or something like that) your relative motion in the universe. Put it another way, if you're going backwards in time, why are you still moving forwards in space or standing still?

Quote:
Of course if the loop created didn't actually have anything to do with time travel, one must wonder why it prevented Mikuru from time traveling.
This kind of timeloop is not a natural situation. Any way of doing it would involve removing the targeted part of the universe from the normal flow of time. Therefore, the "future" beyond the midnight of Aug 31 is no longer "there" for Mikuru to travel to or communicate with.
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Old 2009-06-27, 17:27   Link #180
Sol Falling
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I don't like bringing real physics or logic into discussions of fictional anime because the 'real' physics people start bringing up in order to explain stuff like time travel or alternate universes is crap.

On the issue of relative motion that's been brought up. The problem, you see, with applying that as an obstacle for some sort of time machine is that you are also assuming that space 'exists' in anything more than a local sense. Why should any one reference frame be preferable to another? If God picks the frame of 48 light years to the southwest of the Milky way for the conduction of my little time travel experiment, why can't I (equally objectively) pick the frame of the streetlamp anchored to the earth as my 'coordinates'? It's all the same.

But then again, that's also the problem with portal-based or teleporting time travel in the first place. Time doesn't exist in anything more than a local sense either. To be clear, that means that 'past' and 'future' don't exist either, in any sense beyond Laplace's claim that, if a sufficiently powerful intellect knew the position and velocity of every particle at a given time, it could calculate the position and velocity of any particle at any other time.

Time travel in Haruhi Suzumiya is dealt with by assuming the existance of a 'picturebook', to serve as a record and target point of various instances of 'past' and 'future'. This allows 'travel' by providing actual destinations. Scientifically, though, there is no reason for the existance of any such 'cosmic history', and any attempts to reconcile those fictional tropes with 'actual physics' are futile wastes of time.
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