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Old 2009-06-26, 00:14   Link #3081
Vexx
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Aye.... Barney isn't an idiot so I'll just mark that as him talking out of his ass. NASA's entire annual budget is less than one day of either the defense budget or the HHS budget. Poor NASA has always been a shiny easy target for arm-waving bullshit despite it delivering more payback-per-buck than almost any other agency over its lifetime.

How about those F-22s and B-2s... or those unwanted tankers? Star Wars? Problem is, every time you talk about a project or agency --- politicians translate it to "what is it doing for MY district" rather than "is this good for the country?"

I'm about at the point where I just assume that space will be explored by other countries of the world.
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Old 2009-06-26, 02:12   Link #3082
karasuma
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I vote for Obama, but i can't stand barney & nancy.
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Old 2009-06-26, 02:23   Link #3083
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Aye.... Barney isn't an idiot so I'll just mark that as him talking out of his ass. NASA's entire annual budget is less than one day of either the defense budget or the HHS budget.
HHS would be the office that runs health services in the US, I'm guessing?

I've always wondered what exactly the US government runs that causes the US's public health spending to be higher per capita than Canada's according to OECD data when we're actually running a full public system. Where does all that money go?

(To the skeptics: look up the OECD data if you don't believe me. In Canada, we spent about $3700 per capita in 2006 on health care, with about 71% being public spending. In the US, the numbers are around $6700 and 46%. Do the math. You can verify the figures here: http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html )
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Old 2009-06-26, 02:33   Link #3084
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If NASA is gone, the human race will be doomed. Unless China's space program will develop planetary immigration programs.
China doesn't really have that kind of creative brain to develop the technology, they build on existing technology and don't really create new ones.

Project Orion is an ingenius idea IMO and I don't think any other country other than Russia or Japan can replicate it or come up with something equally ingenius.

Maybe if we reverse engineer the H1N1 and spread it across the globe to become worse, we might be able to advance the world's space agencies......
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Old 2009-06-26, 02:43   Link #3085
Vexx
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
HHS would be the office that runs health services in the US, I'm guessing?

I've always wondered what exactly the US government runs that causes the US's public health spending to be higher per capita than Canada's according to OECD data when we're actually running a full public system. Where does all that money go?

(To the skeptics: look up the OECD data if you don't believe me. In Canada, we spent about $3700 per capita in 2006 on health care, with about 71% being public spending. In the US, the numbers are around $6700 and 46%. Do the math. You can verify the figures here: http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html )
Well... a fair part of it is spent on paying Full Retail Price for prescription drugs under Medicare rather than negotiating for a volume discount like all the health care insurers get to do. Why is that? Because the Congress was bought and paid for by the pharma cartels to make it against the law for Medicare to negotiate for a better deal. They have been laughing all the way to the bank since "Part D" was initiated.

Basically, the last eight years have been spent as a general looting of the public treasury and taxpayer by a select group of large corporations in all the major sectors including health. Outsourcing operations to corporations ended up with them running operations just as sloppy as any government but with the additional costs of profit margin and much higher costs for executive pay.

This is part of why the "co-op plan" and the other "anything but single payer" plans are such poison pills that won't reduce costs but simply transfer more wealth into fewer hands with no effective benefit to the patient.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-06-26 at 02:54.
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Old 2009-06-26, 05:38   Link #3086
Circular Logic
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Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to agree that NASA's budget could be rather usefully cut (or done away with entirely).

The United States' defence budget is absolutely massive, and it already has an overwhelming advantage over any military in the world. What good does it do researching ever more complex weaponry in order to gain an advantage over an imaginary enemy? Mind-bogglingly expensive aircraft carriers don't do a thing to Al-Qaeda, and the US has a huge lead over China's military, and its economy can outpace China's easily. Who else is a threat to the United States? North Korea? Their army is technologically a joke compared to the United States', though it may be big.

Other countries manage to get by with far less military expenditure. One wonders whether America really needs such a large military, unless it is trying to maintain an overwhelming power of projection in order to sustain its power by the threat of military force. Justifications aside, is it even sustainable, considering the US' huge budget deficit? Imperial overstretch and all that...

Last edited by Circular Logic; 2009-06-26 at 05:59.
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:40   Link #3087
Zippicus
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Just a heads up, NASA isn't part of the military. NASA's budget and the defense department's budget are separate entities so whatever you do to one has no impact (at least directly) on the other. NASA get's it's funding from various sources, the government just happens to be one of them.
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:42   Link #3088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to agree that NASA's budget could be rather usefully cut (or done away with entirely).
So, you're screw over the space program so health care spending will having a whopping 4 days worth of spending?!? For every dollar spent on space, $90 is spent on health care in America. And that's the entire NASA budget. Frank *only* wants to cut the mission to Mars

Quote:
The United States' defence budget is absolutely massive, and it already has an overwhelming advantage over any military in the world. What good does it do researching ever more complex weaponry in order to gain an advantage over an imaginary enemy? Mind-bogglingly expensive aircraft carriers don't do a thing to Al-Qaeda, and the US has a huge lead over China's military, and its economy can outpace China's easily. Who else is a threat to the United States? North Korea? Their army is technologically a joke compared to the United States', though it may be big.

Other countries manage to get by with far less military expenditure. One wonders whether America really needs such a large military, unless it is trying to maintain an overwhelming power of projection in order to sustain its power by the threat of military force. Justifications aside, is it even sustainable, considering the US' huge budget deficit? Imperial overstretch and all that...
70% of the US military budget goes overseas to over 700 bases in 50 nations. The US military budget essentially is there to cover the rest of the free world. I can see that scaled back, especially for the EU who has a accumulative GDP larger than the US and can afford to make up the difference if they choose to do so.
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:46   Link #3089
Circular Logic
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
So, you're screw over the space program so health care spending will having a whopping 4 days worth of spending?!? For every dollar spent on space, $90 is spent on health care in America. And that's the entire NASA budget. Frank *only* wants to cut the mission to Mars
Well, I never said that I'd spend it on the health budget, but yes, that would probably be more useful. Considering America's poor rates of health coverage, it would probably benefit more people than a mind-bogglingly trip to Mars.


Quote:
70% of the US military budget goes overseas to over 700 bases in 50 nations. The US military budget essentially is there to cover the rest of the free world. I can see that scaled back, especially for the EU who has a accumulative GDP larger than the US and can afford to make up the difference if they choose to do so.
Cover the rest of the free world (?) from what exactly? The threat of marauding Somalian pirates? There is no need for so many American bases in other countries.

Quote:
Just a heads up, NASA isn't part of the military. NASA's budget and the defense department's budget are separate entities so whatever you do to one has no impact (at least directly) on the other. NASA get's it's funding from various sources, the government just happens to be one of them.
Yeah, I was kind of amalgamating the two
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:55   Link #3090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Well, I never said that I'd spend it on the health budget, but yes, that would probably be more useful. Considering America's poor rates of health coverage, it would probably benefit more people than a mind-bogglingly trip to Mars.
If scientist listen to every guy that said "stop wasting time and money on this and go do something 'useful'", civilization would have never gotten past the Stone Age. It's 'wasted' money like this that has given the world the level of technology we have today.

Quote:
Cover the rest of the free world (?) from what exactly? The threat of marauding Somalian pirates? There is no need for so many American bases in other countries.
Regardless of the existence of a threat, the money is being spent where it's being spent. I never said it was sound fiscal policy. I said it was the reason for the US military budget for being so huge.
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Old 2009-06-26, 07:05   Link #3091
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circular Logic
Well, I never said that I'd spend it on the health budget, but yes, that would probably be more useful. Considering America's poor rates of health coverage, it would probably benefit more people than a mind-bogglingly trip to Mars.
America doesn't need more money for healthcare. America needs to get its act together on healthcare and spend wiser on healthcare. America is already paying the most buck for healthcare, the bang just misses the mark.

And who knows what low gravity experimentation will do to advance our medical research?

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Originally Posted by Circular Logic View Post
Yeah, I was kind of amalgamating the two
Well, then NASA shouldn't be cut, no? Nifty killing machines to maintain the almighty military-industrial complex maybe overkill, but we can never have enough of space research. NASA doesn't build supercarriers and modern battle tanks (unless NASA technologies are used on them), NASA do space research...and some other related stuff.

There's a lot of things out there, and the budget spent on NASA, I'd argue, is actually ridiculously low for the potential space holds for humanity, which is practically infinite barring the intervention of Cthulhu and his merry friends.

The scientific researches done for the projects of the organization also tend to produce useful side technologies, meaning even if I'm never going to become a space pirate in my life (oh man, if only I will be born in 2063 instead), it's still going to do me and a lot of people a lot of good. The billions may look big, but they're a practically a beads-for-Manhattan deal if one is willing to see beyond the immediate numbers.
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Old 2009-06-26, 09:40   Link #3092
Vexx
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We pay far more per person in healthcare (whether public or private) than any other industrialized nation and yet we place way down the list in terms of what we get for that dollar. That extra cost is largely being siphoned out of the system.

Problem is fixing it basically pits the needs of the *people* against the greed of a very few. And that very few seem to have lots of puppets in Congress -- including a fair number of Democrats as well as many Republicans. What you're seeing in this debate is pretty much a naked display of power and corruption.

Yeah.... NASA is not part of the military.
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Old 2009-06-26, 10:04   Link #3093
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This nationalized healthcare policy is nothing more than a scam.

Cut funding for NASA Really? It's about the only good spending the Government even does anymore. My generation, and my children's generation, will be paying for the mistakes of the past 40 years, for the rest of our lives.
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Old 2009-06-26, 10:26   Link #3094
4Tran
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
About 2:36 into the video, we can hear Barney Frank talking out of his rear end about cutting NASA's budget yet again for universal health care. For someone who runs a business (and when I mean business, I meant a prostitution ring out of his apartment), 'Einstein' here can't seem to do math. Even if NASA was abolished and all of the money giving to social welfare, it wouldn't even pay the paperwork to run the bureaucracy let alone the whole program.
Has anyone else actually viewed the video? Frank's statement was to the point that there were areas of spending that could be cut to finance a public health care system in the U.S. One of these areas would be a manned mission to Mars which he posited would cost hundreds of billions of dollars. This isn't about cutting funding to NASA at all - in fact, Frank even iterated that he was in favor of instrumental space missions. While the merits of his points might be debatable, this OP is terribly misleading - this item is barely newsworthy and it certainly doesn't merit its own thread. If someone wants to argue about the costs and merits of NASA, then please start up a new thread on it. Discussion of the American health care system can go to the The Future of US Healthcare thread.
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Old 2009-06-26, 18:03   Link #3095
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LA police hunt for Michael Jackson's doctor
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Originally Posted by Time
Police were investigating claims last night that Michael Jackson received a painkilling injection minutes before his death amid intense pressure to prepare for a series of lucrative comeback concerts in London next month.

A cardiologist who was allegedly with Jackson when he collapsed on Thursday was at the centre of a police inquiry amid claims that Jackson had been receiving daily injections of Demerol, a synthetic painkiller similar to morphine. Detectives seized a car linked to the doctor, and Karen Rayner, a police spokeswoman, said that it might contain “medications or other evidence that may assist the coroner in determining the cause of death”.

An unidentified man who called the emergency services replied: “The doctor has been the only one here,” when asked about witnesses to the collapse. Detectives were searching Jackson’s rented home in the upmarket Los Angeles neighbourhood of Holmby Hills.

The Jackson family’s former lawyer Brian Oxman criticised “enablers” in his entourage for allowing him to abuse prescription drugs. The night before his death Jackson was rehearsing for 50 concerts due to start at the O2 arena in London on July 13. “This was something which I feared and which I warned about,” said Mr Oxman, who was with Jackson’s sister La Toya and brothers Jermaine and Randy at the hospital. “This is a case of abuse of medication, unless there is another cause I did not know about.”
Indeed it might have been TOO soon for MJs death. Accidental murder? >.<
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Old 2009-06-27, 01:32   Link #3096
Vexx
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Venice Approves First Female Gondelier

Just to lighten things up a bit.... ARIA fans can rejoice in that things are starting to fall into place - only two or three hundred years to go...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_221702.html

Quote:
Venice has broken with nine centuries of tradition by granting a gondoliering license to a woman, according to the Guardian.
ANSA reports that the 23-year-old mother of two, Giorgia Boscolo, rubbished claims she would not meet the strenuous physical demands of the jobs, saying, ''childbirth is much more difficult''.
The Guardian reports that Alexandra Hai, another woman taking the course, failed to pass despite spending the last 12 years trying to earn her license.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ale-gondoliers
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Old 2009-06-27, 02:00   Link #3097
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Just to lighten things up a bit.... ARIA fans can rejoice in that things are starting to fall into place - only two or three hundred years to go...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_221702.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ale-gondoliers
She's no Alicia but it's a start Here's a pic of her.
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Old 2009-06-27, 07:39   Link #3098
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Just to lighten things up a bit.... ARIA fans can rejoice in that things are starting to fall into place - only two or three hundred years to go...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_221702.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ale-gondoliers
Ok, now the hard part of women breaking into the traditionally male dominated profession is proceeding. What's left is the somewhat easier task of terraforming Mars and moving the city's famous buildings block by block there.
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Old 2009-06-27, 10:30   Link #3099
CrossoverManiac
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Has anyone else actually viewed the video? Frank's statement was to the point that there were areas of spending that could be cut to finance a public health care system in the U.S.
Frank campaigned on a platform of screwing over NASA.

Quote:
One of these areas would be a manned mission to Mars which he posited would cost hundreds of billions of dollars.
That's over a period of decades. Social welfare programs burn though that much money in months. That's like a husband squandering hundreds on a night at the casino and complaining about his wife buying soft drinks because it cost him that much over a course of a year.

Quote:
This isn't about cutting funding to NASA at all - in fact, Frank even iterated that he was in favor of instrumental space missions.
Let's turned this around. If a politician proposed slicing Medicare by 99.99% of its budget and then claims to support it because he's in favor of a free band-aid program (only one per person per year of course), would you honestly claim he was for Medicare?!? An exaggeration but the point Frank wants to derailed manned exploration of space, which goes against the very purpose and existence of NASA.

Quote:
While the merits of his points might be debatable, this OP is terribly misleading
I'm misleading people now?!? Well, let's see how misleading the title really is. Fact: on more than one occasion, Barney complained that NASA was getting hundreds of billions to go to Mars (hundreds of billions is quite a lot for an agency that only gets $18 billion per year). Barney wants to cut those hundreds of billions for his health care plan. Now, what was my title again? Oh yes, it's "Barney Frank wants to gut NASA for government-run health care". NASA is going to lose a sizable percentage of its budget and have it redirected towards the train wreck that is nationalized health care. Looks pretty damn accurate to me.

Quote:
- this item is barely newsworthy and it certainly doesn't merit its own thread. If someone wants to argue about the costs and merits of NASA, then please start up a new thread on it. Discussion of the American health care system can go to the The Future of US Healthcare thread.

Attempts to derailed manned exploration of space is certainly newsworthy, and a lot more than the latest Michael Bay Failformers movie. But I'll gladly start a new thread on the importance of space exploration.
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Old 2009-06-27, 12:16   Link #3100
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
Frank campaigned on a platform of screwing over NASA.
He's only talking about Mars there. He seems very opposed to manned missions to Mars specificly, though not so much in other areas of the space program. Though I'm a supporter of missions to Mars, and the eventual colonization of the planet, (and any other body that's big enough, and using the ones that aren't as raw material to build artifical habitats in space) so that's still distasteful to me and would cost him my vote if I was in his district, but let's be honest about the facts.

I suspect he's in the pockets of a pro-Martian lobbiest group that's trying to undermine humanity's attempts to claim Mars for our own. He even tried pushing a ban on funding a mission to Mars before NASA was considering one. Something's fishy there. We can't let this agent of Martians stop humanity for claiming what's rightfully ours, martian space oil.
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