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Old 2009-07-05, 17:59   Link #2321
Kaiba
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Just a quick question as I'm going through Episode 4:

Spoiler for Umineko Questions:
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Old 2009-07-05, 18:01   Link #2322
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Just a quick question as I'm going through Episode 4:

Spoiler for Umineko Questions:
Spoiler for Response.:
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Old 2009-07-05, 18:06   Link #2323
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Just a quick question as I'm going through Episode 4:

Spoiler for Umineko Questions:
If you aren't sympathizing with her at this point you never will.
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Old 2009-07-05, 18:31   Link #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Just a quick question as I'm going through Episode 4:

Spoiler for Umineko Questions:
Maybe your opinion will change with something you learn with her diary in 1998.
Spoiler for Late Ep 4 spoilers:
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Old 2009-07-05, 22:00   Link #2325
Christen
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I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but a friend of mine opened up a possibility. This might qualify as an Episode 3 subject, but since most discussions are here, and a few evidences that we have from Episode 4, I'll post it here.

Spoiler for Eva's true motives?:
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Old 2009-07-05, 23:11   Link #2326
Jan-Poo
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Well even considering the tanabata novel, there's no way Eva would tell a 6 year old girl a detailed story of murders and assassins. Let's say she really wanted to be a mother for Ange, then she probably planned to tell her the truth when she was old enough to understand it and accept it. But we know that the initial good intentions were short lived and then Eva went crazy.
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:32   Link #2327
Shinndou
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More food for thought on the Epitaph-riddle. A friend of mine came up with this theory:

We pretty much all agree that when the riddle says "follow the river downstream" it talks about the descendance, and when it talks about finding the village (里) it's basically saying that we need to focus our attention on Maria's name (真里亞). So, keeping that in mind and going on with the following lines, we combine the kanjis 二 and 口 from the sentence "二人が口にし" (the two will tell you) and we obtain the kanji 目.
Now, following the riddle, a shore is a portion that's between land and sea. It's telling us to look for it ("岸を探せ"). Keeping in mind Maria's name as well, the kanji 目is contained in 真. So this is the "shore". In this shore (meaning in this kanji), we have to look for the "Key".

Here's the creepy curiosity about the last bit: the origin of the kanji 真. It was originally meant to indicate a corpse that lays upside down, the lower part of the kanji should depict the hair sticking out from the beheaded corpse. The story behind it says that the man who died this way became a ghost and possessed a strong spiritual force. Then the spirit of this deceased man was caged inside a sanctuary, in order to calm him and purify him.

[edit] Forgot to say, but among the most popular meaning/use for the kanji 真 there's "reality", "truth", "genuine", "pure" and all things related to this. Could this be a way to say "please find the truth?"

Last edited by Shinndou; 2009-07-06 at 02:08.
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Old 2009-07-06, 07:32   Link #2328
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
We pretty much all agree that when the riddle says "follow the river downstream" it talks about the descendance
Actually that's not true. I'm not saying this is false, this is a possible interpretation, but it's false that everyone agrees with this. There are substantally two reasons:

1) The adults pretty much dismissed this idea. According to Rosa, Kinzo wanted to give Maria another name, so it is unlikely that the very meaning of this riddle lies on a name that was given against Kinzo's will. Of course if Kinzo is not the author then the problem becomes irrelevant

2) This interpretation doesn't match with Eva line of thinking. It is stressed many times that Eva came to the solution thinking about the "sea". There's also the fact that she was looking for a library and you don't need a library to reason about Kanjis unless you are a grade schooler. Eva actually mentioned an atlas and it seems she's looking at some picture: "is this a river? So that's what sweetfish river means."
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Old 2009-07-06, 13:19   Link #2329
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinndou View Post
Forgot to say, but among the most popular meaning/use for the kanji 真 there's "reality", "truth", "genuine", "pure" and all things related to this. Could this be a way to say "please find the truth?"
It would really be unfortunate if the notebook fragment in EP1's end scroll related to the epitaph in that way and everyone just dismissed it as an awesome reference to Higurashi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Eva actually mentioned an atlas and it seems she's looking at some picture: "is this a river? So that's what sweetfish river means."
I'm still convinced we may not have that luxury. The geography of the real world and Umineko's differ in that Rokkenjima doesn't actually exist, and if she's looking at Rokkenjima on that atlas (although she isn't necessarily), all we can do is guess what she's seeing.

Last edited by k//eternal; 2009-07-06 at 13:42.
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Old 2009-07-06, 14:00   Link #2330
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Tetsuro. He aided Ange in getting away from her wicked aunt, since it wouldn't suit him for her to fall into her hands, but hired her a bodyguard that'd make sure to watch from a distance as she was being beaten to death, then to take care of the people that did it, making her disappearance a thing of mystery, something aided by the accompanying disappearance of the boat captain that took them to the island on the return voyage.

Then, he collects on Ange's assets once she's declared legally dead, and continues living the life he's accustomed to as the head of the Ushiromiya fortune.

Just as planned.
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Old 2009-07-06, 14:14   Link #2331
Marion
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Originally Posted by Teapot View Post
Tetsuro. He aided Ange in getting away from her wicked aunt, since it wouldn't suit him for her to fall into her hands, but hired her a bodyguard that'd make sure to watch from a distance as she was being beaten to death, then to take care of the people that did it, making her disappearance a thing of mystery, something aided by the accompanying disappearance of the boat captain that took them to the island on the return voyage.

Then, he collects on Ange's assets once she's declared legally dead, and continues living the life he's accustomed to as the head of the Ushiromiya fortune.

Just as planned.
Damn you Okonogi

I'm pretty sure Okonogi controlled some of the Ushiromiya assets to an extent, as he was the president of the Ushiromiya Group. Plus why hire just one bodyguard anyway if that was the plan. This idea also implies Okonogi knew Ange was going to go to Rokkenjima.
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Old 2009-07-06, 14:16   Link #2332
Kitsu
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With one bodyguard the group is smaller and easier to hide and he paying one person to shut up is easier then two
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Old 2009-07-06, 14:20   Link #2333
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
I'm still convinced we may not have that luxury. The geography of the real world and Umineko's differ in that Rokkenjima doesn't actually exist, and if she's looking at Rokkenjima on that atlas (although she isn't necessarily), all we can do is guess what she's seeing.
I don't think this is the case, because Battler says Rokkenjima is not on any map. So it's impossible that Eva is looking at a Rokkenjima map, because such map do not exists not even in the world of this novel. Of course it is possible that a non official map of Rokkenjima exists. But then that wouldn't be an atlas and the library Eva uses it is said to have only common books you can find everywhere.
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Old 2009-07-06, 15:39   Link #2334
maximilianjenus
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The el dorado theory seems to make more sense as if to force eva to look at an atlas.

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I have a question about the final Human Tea Party. So... the final mystery is how Battler is killed by Beatrice when he is the final person alive on the island and no one outside can interfere? I assume it was intentional to cut the Tea Party at that point?
Spoiler for Episode 5 preview:
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Old 2009-07-06, 16:20   Link #2335
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Spoiler for Teapot's Hypothesis:
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Old 2009-07-06, 16:34   Link #2336
Jan-Poo
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Spoiler for teapot's hypothesis:


EDIT for answer:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
I often wondered about something that has been overlooked.

There is this idea that Kinzo was the only survivor of the Ushiromiya family. This is not true... or at least it is not true that he was the only survivor after the great Kanto earthquake. That is what happened to the Main family but Kinzo's branch wasn't the only one that survived.
It is said that Kinzo was "chosen" specifically because of his polydactility. You can't really "choose" when you only have one choice.
So well... what happened to all the other Ushiromiya? Did they all die for some unknown reasons? And if they didn't, why didn't they try to get a share of the inheritance?
Ah, you mean kinzo's inheritance ? well, it's logical that it would pass to his only daughter, you normally don't get cousins or even brothers of the deceased fighting for the money if said person has children.
It's all right as long as the inheritance goes to an Ushiromiya, so Ange inheriting is perfectly allright. But once she dies without any successor, since Ange is also the head of the family, wouldn't the other Ushiromiya do as it was done in 1923 and elect a new head from the branch family? Of course that new head would certainly try to claim the rights on the vast Ushiromiya's fortune.
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Old 2009-07-07, 14:42   Link #2337
Knicknevin
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As a (late) side note for those who have speculating on what Eva saw in the atlas that made her say "Oh, is this a sweetfish river?" As she mentioned to Rosa later, the trick she thought of was that sweetfish can live in both fresh and salt water.

A brief glance at the Izu island archipelago might be a clue- they form a winding but fairly sequential chain. Might these signify the river? Also, some maps show prominent currents. Maybe the 'river' is an ocean current?

After examining several atlases of my own, I couldn't come up with any further ideas. Maybe with access to a Japanese atlas, something would jump out. Google maps were of no help, so unless someone has a hard copy I don't really see much hope of figuring out that angle. It's possible that it's something that will be blatantly obvious as soon as you look at the legend for the atlas.

Well, anyway.

I saw a crazy theory on another board theorizing that the epitaph is instructions on converting all the characters in ベアトリーチェ (Beatrice) into kanji. I don't know how accurate his conversions or interpretations were, but that poster's results came out that it's implied the hint to the gold is hidden in the family name- specifically, the 宮 (miya) in 右代宮 (Ushiromiya). His interpretation was 'shrine', though it could also be something more like 'temple'. 'Shrine' or 'Temple' eh. Well, there has been alot of speculation that the gold is in the church Kinzo built... I don't have the time or ability to reverse engineer all his work.

But it struck me that if you discount the ー in ベアトリーチェ, you are left with 6 kana. Looking at things very, VERY loosely might the " in ベ be interpreted as 'the two that are close'? アand ト as a head and chest are pretty iffy, but リ kinda looks like a chubby stomach. チ is a knee? lol. All that's left is the little anklebiter ェ for the 'leg' (though the gougings are usually done in more like the ankle). Well, this is just purely speculation from a Japanese illiterate.

Apologies if this has been said earlier, haven't checked this board in a while and couldn't find anything about this.
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Old 2009-07-08, 01:39   Link #2338
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I'm pretty sure that everybody knows the connection between Maria and the Siestas/Sakutarou, but this is a pretty interesting take on this.

Spoiler for :
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Old 2009-07-08, 02:01   Link #2339
Marion
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Wow I didn't notice that at all :O~ Nice find.
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Old 2009-07-08, 02:50   Link #2340
Saerianne
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Haha, that's a pretty cool find.
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