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Old 2009-07-06, 00:07   Link #921
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
Honestly, if Claymores would be effective or not on DoDs, would depend on how many big DoDs there are. Let's not forget that 24 claymores had problems fighting 3 awakened beings.
That is because Org adopt an attitude of making them and lose them on claymores. If they trained them properly, and have older and more experienced claymore mentor younger ones on youki control, raise youki and teach techniques etc, I wouldn't be surprised even the weakest claymores would be comparable to top 10 and there will plenty of top 3 material. Then 24 claymores can prob take on 24 average ABs or even prob enough to take on 1 AO. You also wouldn't be limit to 47 claymore per generation, you can literally have thousands or tens of thousands.
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Old 2009-07-06, 00:14   Link #922
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Here is something to consider to. How many recruits died in Clare's class, just to find a #40ish?
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Old 2009-07-06, 00:14   Link #923
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Well, actually, if the Org creates 47 equally strong Claymores they would have little control over them. As it is now, they try to earn the loyalty of the top ranks to intimidate the lowers. Even so, it's still not very effective. There are still too many ABs running around. Luckily for the Org, most of them sucks or they are intended to suck
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Old 2009-07-06, 00:15   Link #924
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But debate is fun
Only because it involved me getting eaten by angry ants.
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:09   Link #925
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*nomnomnom*

Also, why does everyone think Riful should be dead?
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:15   Link #926
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
Here is something to consider to. How many recruits died in Clare's class, just to find a #40ish?
If they cared, they wouldn't have killed the trainees in an exam and they would have trained them better.
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:16   Link #927
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Well, actually, if the Org creates 47 equally strong Claymores they would have little control over them. As it is now, they try to earn the loyalty of the top ranks to intimidate the lowers. Even so, it's still not very effective. There are still too many ABs running around. Luckily for the Org, most of them sucks or they are intended to suck
There is only a problem with control if they have a reason to hate the Org. If they are volunteer or soldiers drafted for war, they would not rebel against Org.
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:17   Link #928
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I like Riful but personally, it doesn't matter much for me if she dies or not. Well, I'm not an evil person to want her to die or anything but I kinda try to think in advance of the story speculating on whose gonna die. Riful doesn't really play anymore very important parts in the story right after this chapter. Well Raciella's awakened, guess Riful's part is pretty much finished. Given that Isley's dead, I think all the 3 Abyssal Ones are going down.
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Old 2009-07-06, 01:25   Link #929
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I don't think many of us have said the Org are the good guys. But somehow or another we started talking about the lesser of two evil. Again, the lesser of two evils is still evil. But it was asked how the DoD could possibly be worse, and an explanation was so given. Just because one believe that the genocide of an entire species is a far greater tragedy than the genocide of the North and half the south, does not mean that person is saying that the Genocide of the North wasn't unforgivable and horrible. Who was right there with you arguing that Dietrich is evil, and went into details of how the org was evil for lobotomizing young girls and turning them into monsters? But that does not mean that I see all acts of evil on the same scale. The genocide of a species for outweighs the genocide of a city, and it is being able to differentiate on the scale of horribleness of the two crimes that one can conceptualize a greater evil with.
I remember the Dietrich issue too as well you standing with me on that one.

I asked you what it would take for the DoDs to be worse than the MiBs. You answered genocidial - fair enough, that would be worse. Now, I have to ask, do you think it's likely? We have no evidence that the DoDs have committed any atrocities what-so-ever, or even that they started the fight for that matter. The only thing we know is they allied with themselves with a powerful race of DoDs (and as I said earlier, in eastern mythology dragons are more often than not good guys)

The only reason that anyone would believe the MiBs are the good guys is because the story is from the perective of Clare, who is definitely a good person as is her immediate circle of aquaintances (ghosts, raki, father vincent, etc). In real life though, there are good people on both sides of a conflict/war - they just happen to be trying to kill each other because from their perspectives what they are doing is right. That's life. Surely you don't believe that all 16 year old enlisted privates in the German army during WWII were like Hitler?

In short, in order to continue to believe that the DoDs are the bad guys, due to the volume of wrong doings by the MiBs, you are almost forced to believe the DoDs are evil incarnate - genocidal maniacs on and insane quest to conquer and purge all life from the planet or something. Now, I ask you, do you think Yagi would ever give us such a one dimensional villian? Even Ophelia and the bandits had much more depth than that. Characters in Claymore act for personal reasons - and "I want to be evil" is typically not one of them.

At the moment I'm having a difficult time believing the DoD side is evil, so I believe anyone using this line of reasoning as a premise for further arguments is assuming a little more than is safe to assume. That's all.
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Old 2009-07-06, 02:18   Link #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
Even Ophelia and the bandits had much more depth than that. Characters in Claymore act for personal reasons - and "I want to be evil" is typically not one of them.

What was it with the bandits?
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Old 2009-07-06, 02:30   Link #931
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Yay! Even though shrimpy resigned from translating Claymore Gernot took his place. And I have a question. In cnet's translation on page 28 we have
"Despite your human forms, you're the first to ever damage me to this extent..."
but according to Gernot this: 人型といえ ここまでされたのは初めてよ should be translated to:
"I’m in my human form, but still, this is the first time anyone’s gotten me this badly".

Both versions make sense but Gernot's would be my choice. Even if Riful was slashed to the head it would do nothing to her but her flesh was devoured by ZACS and I doubt anything like that happened to her earlier. Also I doubt she ever fought with other abyssals and ordinary awakened beings most likely avoided her so her comment "despite your human forms" couldn't mean much because claymores were probably the only worthy opponents she had. AB she obliterated in seconds would probably be owned by Rachel and Audrey.

Also on the last page:
Gernot's version: The first target is the abyssal one.
cnet's: Their first target is the Abyssal One.

Since Alicia is saying this Gernot's version makes more sense.
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Old 2009-07-06, 03:25   Link #932
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yay! Even though shrimpy resigned from translating Claymore Gernot took his place. And I have a question. In cnet's translation on page 28 we have
"Despite your human forms, you're the first to ever damage me to this extent..."
but according to Gernot this: 人型といえ ここまでされたのは初めてよ should be translated to:
"I’m in my human form, but still, this is the first time anyone’s gotten me this badly".

Both versions make sense but Gernot's would be my choice. Even if Riful was slashed to the head it would do nothing to her but her flesh was devoured by ZACS and I doubt anything like that happened to her earlier. Also I doubt she ever fought with other abyssals and ordinary awakened beings most likely avoided her so her comment "despite your human forms" couldn't mean much because claymores were probably the only worthy opponents she had. AB she obliterated in seconds would probably be owned by Rachel and Audrey.

Also on the last page:
Gernot's version: The first target is the abyssal one.
cnet's: Their first target is the Abyssal One.

Since Alicia is saying this Gernot's version makes more sense.
Gernot version is the closest translation to the jap RAW and I'd like to say that's how it should be...I think cnet made some changes so as to not sound translationese...and put more hype into each dialogues...the last page Alicia says in RAW... by the order of the organization Abyssal hunt is to be carried out...the first target is Abyssal one Riful of the West....
so there you go even i translated it differently...
as for 人型といえ ここまでされたのは初めてよ
Even though I'm in my human form, still this is the first time anyone's gotten me this much.
You guys... I'm gonna mince you such that you'll regret having such durable bodies...

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-06 at 04:30.
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Old 2009-07-06, 05:35   Link #933
Gooral
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Thanks for clarification sonotme_9FedriqSama and Cyclone.

Last edited by Gooral; 2009-07-06 at 07:19.
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Old 2009-07-06, 05:55   Link #934
Cyclone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yay! Even though shrimpy resigned from translating Claymore Gernot took his place. And I have a question. In cnet's translation on page 28 we have
"Despite your human forms, you're the first to ever damage me to this extent..."
but according to Gernot this: 人型といえ ここまでされたのは初めてよ should be translated to:
"I’m in my human form, but still, this is the first time anyone’s gotten me this badly".

Both versions make sense but Gernot's would be my choice. Even if Riful was slashed to the head it would do nothing to her but her flesh was devoured by ZACS and I doubt anything like that happened to her earlier. Also I doubt she ever fought with other abyssals and ordinary awakened beings most likely avoided her so her comment "despite your human forms" couldn't mean much because claymores were probably the only worthy opponents she had. AB she obliterated in seconds would probably be owned by Rachel and Audrey.

Also on the last page:
Gernot's version: The first target is the abyssal one.
cnet's: Their first target is the Abyssal One.

Since Alicia is saying this Gernot's version makes more sense.
This is one of those nuances, I'm not great at. In typical japanese, and as you see by the confusion of the translators, the subject is obvious. All we have to go by is the form of the verb.

From what I've been able to find, the "to ie" is something called the past concessive form of "to iu" (to say) - making it "though [we] say"/"though saying" (i.e. "human form though saying"). So if I'm right, it's:
"even though saying it's the human form, to be able to come this far (lit: be able to do upto here), is a first"

In any event, it looks to me like Riful means that even though she is in human form...
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Old 2009-07-06, 06:10   Link #935
Cyclone
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What was it with the bandits?
- They never attacked Teresa directly (until it was unavoidable). Classic evil attacks good guys whenever it finds them regardless of circumstances.
- They were revolted at Teresa's scar (a crime in itself). Normally nothing gets in the way of classic evil's lustful tendancies.
- They did not behave uniformly - the only guy avenging his lost hand was the guy who lost it. Classic evil always behaves as a single entity.
- The bandits wanted the treasure and slave potential from the village - they would have ignored Teresa if they could. Classic evil attacks everybody indiscriminantly.
- The guy who lost the hand was the one beat up Clare (the thing that triggered their demise). I think the other bandits might have been more weary.
- When the regular bandits saw they screwed up, they tried to run for it. Classic evil always fights to the death of the last man.

It's not much, but even with Yagi showing us "something worse than youma", it's still not total typical cliche bad guys.
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Old 2009-07-06, 06:23   Link #936
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Didn't the Org notebooks confirm Riful was Offensive type....?
I can't believe that a Awakening with such a weird Body, who is SO complex in Order to be most difficult to kill, is a "Offensive" Type...

I just don't believe it.
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Old 2009-07-06, 07:44   Link #937
MisterJB
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post

"Please Lord, strike Riful down! Now, Lord, strike her, strike her! Strike her while Claymore can still be saved! "

And he's off again ladies and gentlemen
you just noticed that now?

But good idea, I should put that in bold. Thanks


Anyway. I can't believe that Renne couldn't say who was stronger between Riful and Raciella.
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Last edited by MisterJB; 2009-07-06 at 08:05.
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Old 2009-07-06, 09:32   Link #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclone View Post
- They never attacked Teresa directly (until it was unavoidable). Classic evil attacks good guys whenever it finds them regardless of circumstances.
- They were revolted at Teresa's scar (a crime in itself). Normally nothing gets in the way of classic evil's lustful tendancies.
- They did not behave uniformly - the only guy avenging his lost hand was the guy who lost it. Classic evil always behaves as a single entity.
- The bandits wanted the treasure and slave potential from the village - they would have ignored Teresa if they could. Classic evil attacks everybody indiscriminantly.
- The guy who lost the hand was the one beat up Clare (the thing that triggered their demise). I think the other bandits might have been more weary.
- When the regular bandits saw they screwed up, they tried to run for it. Classic evil always fights to the death of the last man.

It's not much, but even with Yagi showing us "something worse than youma", it's still not total typical cliche bad guys.
Well to be honest, I'd say it is. I mean it all depends really if you see the bandits as useful characters with meaning or just as extras like I do They didn't have much depth to me at least not a touching one like Ophelia's.
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Old 2009-07-06, 09:47   Link #939
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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no further comment :P


my aunt is pretty human, but that just as an aside 0.o


nice debate btw this is fun
I think he meant Ant....but the way you answered it is funny lol...i couldnt stop laughing
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Old 2009-07-06, 09:55   Link #940
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I would like to point out one thing about fighting sstyles of AO's...Riful's tentacles are flexible and has both long and short attack...unlike Isleys weapons which were all rigid...arrows, swords, claws... all rigid weapons against hippity hoppiting AF's...will definately allows AF's to slip past it...where as with Riful her body itself is weapon and she can change the directions of her tentacles...what do you guys think?
One more thing...will clare ever meet with Abyss feeders....I want to see her slash some AF's

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-06 at 10:12.
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