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Old 2009-07-04, 16:10   Link #201
Ultramarinus
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Those were very informative posts, thanks.

A shame that they even cut out those parts which would at most take up another minute to include. A little less scenery and a little more dialogue would go a long way to make a better show.
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Old 2009-07-06, 16:29   Link #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
I wouldn't call it inferior. After all, they seems prefect for close range gun combat.

I can only speculate about it though:

Training reasons
  • Heavier: means that it practice your endurance a lot more and make you stronger after usage.
  • Bad conductivity: I suppose that it force the user to push more kei into it to make it work. And we know that using kei = kei pool goes up over time.
  • Habit: Nina's to much used to heavy weapons handling.

Fighting reasons
  • Hardness: Doesn't break easily in combat.
  • Weight: Some fighting style require an heavy weapon.
  • Bad conductivity: If kei doesn't go that well through it, that mean that it's a better material to block kei attacks. Making it a better defensive weapon.

Personality:
  • Stubbornness: She decided to use heavy weapon just because.
  • Family tradition: Maybe everybody in the family does it too.

Maybe, if we are lucky, we will get the answer in the novels.
I think the black material Dite is worse for deflecting Kei attacks, because of it's low conductivity. Because it can't absorb the kei attacks well and almost as good at deflecting as any normal material. In contrast the white Dite can absorb it better.
Probably the only reasons behind her use of black dite is the weight(her attacks relies more on the force than technique) and training(forcing her Kei more)
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Old 2009-07-06, 17:04   Link #203
azarhal
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
I think the black material Dite is worse for deflecting Kei attacks, because of it's low conductivity. Because it can't absorb the kei attacks well and almost as good at deflecting as any normal material. In contrast the white Dite can absorb it better.
Probably the only reasons behind her use of black dite is the weight(her attacks relies more on the force than technique) and training(forcing her Kei more)
I was usinga electric=kei analogy. So a bad conductor would protect the person wielding the weapon better then a good conductor, no. I mean, rubber is better then iron to avoid being electrified.
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Old 2009-07-06, 17:52   Link #204
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Let's hear what Gatts has to say on the matter:

"My sword is three times thicker than usual, so it doesn't cut as easily. But if you're still alive after you're hit, it'll hurt very much."

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Old 2009-07-06, 22:34   Link #205
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But the outer burst Kei is more like a directed energy weapon.
Let's see a Gundam comparsion then. The Mobile Suit's armor has close to no defense against beams, but it's shield has many layers of beam-absorbing cosatings(and it can survive a beam)
Same with the black and white dites. The black one don't let the incoming Kei attack to flow inside the weapon, but it faces that head-on and lets other parts of the body get hurt by it too. While a white dite can probably absorb it and protect the wielder from the whole attack despite it covered a larger area than the dite itself.
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Old 2009-07-07, 02:39   Link #206
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Was meant as a joke in any case, I find our knowledge about how kei acts and dites in general lacking to come with a solid answer.

However, I think that we at least were informed that dites were all made of adamantite (hence the short-hand dite comes from) due to how it can be altered and re-composed by alchemical means, the restoration chant. So it should be safe to assume that the dites only difference are in shape but not the material.
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Old 2009-07-07, 06:47   Link #207
azarhal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb
But the outer burst Kei is more like a directed energy weapon.
Let's see a Gundam comparsion then. The Mobile Suit's armor has close to no defense against beams, but it's shield has many layers of beam-absorbing cosatings(and it can survive a beam)
Same with the black and white dites. The black one don't let the incoming Kei attack to flow inside the weapon, but it faces that head-on and lets other parts of the body get hurt by it too. While a white dite can probably absorb it and protect the wielder from the whole attack despite it covered a larger area than the dite itself.
But if the white dite absorb it, wouldn't it flow right back to the wielder's hand? Layfon make it sound like the dite is just an extension of his body, although that might just be him.

I agree that if a kei burst is a weapon of impact, incompetents are going to be hurt by blocking those attacks with a dite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarinus View Post
However, I think that we at least were informed that dites were all made of adamantite (hence the short-hand dite comes from) due to how it can be altered and re-composed by alchemical means, the restoration chant. So it should be safe to assume that the dites only difference are in shape but not the material.
Dite are made of different alloy - black, white, green, red - all with their own advantages and disavantages. So far in the novel we know that.

black: heavy and bad conductor.
white and green: very good conductor and good conductor (good for speed too).
red: (anime)seems to be used by people with fire attacks, like Shante.

If adamantite is the real name for all the material, I have no idea. We should have some anwser in a few weeks when vol. 2 translation is over.
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Old 2009-07-07, 21:09   Link #208
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um... I'm pretty sure the materials for the Dites are different. azarhal's pretty muched summed it up. Different colour indicates different materials and hence, different "uses" you might say.
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:48   Link #209
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Adding more info about Nina that I found on the web. In spoiler tag, although it doesn't really have anything to do with the storyline.

Spoiler for Nina's background:


I also want to comment on the anime Nina vs novel Nina. The more I read the nice translation we have, the more I can see the "butchering" that was done to Nina's character. Part because of the "plot" changes, part because of the personality changes.

I mean . They totally changed the character. At first I thought it would be limited, so I expect novel Nina to be a bit of a tsundere with the paladin philosophy, but no anime Nina and novel Nina are like polar opposite. Nina is actually not an overzealous tsundere paladin, she is an over-analyzing bookworm paladin.

That was totally unexpected. Although, the tsundere tendencies can raise later.
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Old 2009-08-21, 07:38   Link #210
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How is anime!Nina tsundere? She's a complicated character, yeah, but how does that make anyone automatically tsundere?
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Old 2009-08-21, 08:48   Link #211
azarhal
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Originally Posted by cheshire View Post
How is anime!Nina tsundere? She's a complicated character, yeah, but how does that make anyone automatically tsundere?
That what people said when the anime was "on" and what TV Tropes claims.

Tv Tropes definition of tsundere:

Quote:
A character (usually female) who runs 'hot and cold', flipping between aggressive or confrontational(tsuntsun, meaning "aloof" or "cranky" in Japanese) and affectionate and sentimental (deredere, meaning "lovestruck"). The distinct moods usually aren't subtle, especially with the latter ranging from 'simple teasing' to 'lovestruck kindergartener who pushes you into the sandbox'. The reasons behind a Tsundere's behavior vary, but typically rise from the conflict between her feelings about the object of her affections and her reactions to having them. This can be as simple as embarrassment or frustration at being so attracted to that boy, particularly if he has certain personality quirks or behaviors that infuriate her. She may not even realize that she is attracted to him.
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Old 2009-08-21, 10:59   Link #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
That what people said when the anime was "on" and what TV Tropes claims.

Tv Tropes definition of tsundere:
This is generally a problem with fanmade terms and there abstract meanings that causes many to overuse/misuse them. Nina is far from a Tsundere. Her moods shifts are not sudden/reasonless nor are her moods meant to hide her true feelings as you'd expect of a Tsundere. Any girl who has any sort of emotional range is often time listed as a Tsundere. Nina is a fairly complex character with a lot of emotions swirling around inside her. It hard to categorize characters with a lot of depth and generally 90 percent of anime characters have extremely little.

Also Nina was always over-analyzing in the anime. We see her doubt herself many times throughout and asked questions of Layfon. Many times he avoided answering, changed the subject or used misdirection. She did however always confront him about his morals and his way of doing things and even tried to understand him though she herself felt that she couldn't when it all came down to it. The novel will of course make this much easier to see but I never thought it was that difficult to see in the first place in the anime. Anime Nina is actually a more interesting character to me. She seems much more "human" in the anime.
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Old 2009-08-21, 16:37   Link #213
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Human? Well, LN Nina is inspirational for everyone to Jean D'Arc levels. If you mean the anime Nina has more faults and more controlled by her emotions. If you meant thiis as being more human then you must've meant it's more common. You find more people with the personality similar to the anime's nina than the LN's. But I found her actions somewhat too unexplained and unreasonable in the anime it actually takes out much of her "humanity".
Anime Nina even may fit somehow the tsundere deffinition.
But as far as I know LN Nina has no kind of "defense mechanism" to hide her feelings(like it's natural for the tsunderes)
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Old 2009-08-21, 17:04   Link #214
azarhal
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Also Nina was always over-analyzing in the anime. We see her doubt herself many times throughout and asked questions of Layfon.
I didn't mean over-analyzing others actions, I was actually thinking more about the philosophic analyze, i.e. "What it mean to be the strongest" or "What/who would be the strongest in this world", etc.

Something the anime totally removed from the character, mostly because they are 100% thoughts.
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Old 2009-08-22, 06:51   Link #215
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Human? Well, LN Nina is inspirational for everyone to Jean D'Arc levels. If you mean the anime Nina has more faults and more controlled by her emotions. If you meant thiis as being more human then you must've meant it's more common. You find more people with the personality similar to the anime's nina than the LN's. But I found her actions somewhat too unexplained and unreasonable in the anime it actually takes out much of her "humanity".
Anime Nina even may fit somehow the tsundere deffinition.
But as far as I know LN Nina has no kind of "defense mechanism" to hide her feelings(like it's natural for the tsunderes)
Her action are less explained but certainly not unreasonable especially to a person like herself. Novels can get you into a person head much deeper than an anime can due to level of internal thoughts given but its fairly clear to see why many of her actions happen. Especially in regards to Layfon who she has to both try to understand when he doesn't open about about a lot and in regards to looking out for what best for her team which isn't as clear cut as it is from the viewers point of view. Layfon being the protagonist of the show is generally reason enough for the viewer to accept anything he does as right/will work out in the end but that doesn't mean that Nina can't worry about his trustworthiness and beliefs that can conflict with the group.

If you need some of her actions explained then please ask I'll be glad to go in depth into specific examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
I didn't mean over-analyzing others actions, I was actually thinking more about the philosophic analyze, i.e. "What it mean to be the strongest" or "What/who would be the strongest in this world", etc.

Something the anime totally removed from the character, mostly because they are 100% thoughts.
True many thoughts are going to be left out but I think the crux of her character was keep in place and actually she made a more interesting character without internal thoughts because the viewer had to try to get into her head more on their own to understand her. If you didn't then you'd obviously only take her actions into account instead of the reasoning and her own personality. Whether you believe that be a flawed personality or not. She certainly wasn't perfect but neither was Layfon, his flaws just weren't accentuated as much as hers in the anime. I don't need nor like idealized characters.
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Old 2009-08-22, 08:20   Link #216
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I have to agree with Rick about it. Even though the anime misses the thoughts which are a big deal and totally makes up stuff like hiding the haikizoku as a secret, Nina's actions are far more than unexplainable. There's a sense and reason behind them. Tvtropes got it totally wrong, it all comes down to someone's wrong analysis to label a character as such. I generally dislike tsunderes, because they're overly synthetic most times with the senseless knee-jerk reactions. In anime, we see Nina acting friendly as a colleague with Layfon right away from the start. She's rough but it's Layfon's non-stop deceit (even after his secret leaked out) till the very last episode that causes her stern reactions. And those are in no way the senseless "baka Shinji, curl up and die" spam. In fact, Felli can be considered the real tsundere with her constant baka spam, harassment and attacks followed by "if it's you, it's ok Fonfon" moments. Now that's the type of character I detest since the time I saw Asuka of NGE.
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Old 2009-08-22, 10:27   Link #217
azarhal
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Sigh.

I guest I shouldn't have put the word tsundere there, looks like a sore subject for some viewers.

My comment wasn't about determining if Nina was or not a tsundere or what the term meant or what I understood or not of hypotical background stage character reasoning.

It was about the difference between the anime and the novel presentation of the character. I guess I didn't use the right term.
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Old 2009-08-22, 11:07   Link #218
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I know. Anime-Nina looks like a really forcefull and bossy person, while LN-Nina's the opposite. Even if they're not as different, but they look really different.
For the most viewers who hate Nina she looks like a sore looser and weak fighter, who pretends to be strong. On the top of it a jealus, power-hungry girl with really reckless behaviour. On the top of it bossy and forcefull as I mentioned.
She's not like that but her actions could be interpreted that way too.
In contrast LN Nina's quite obviously not like that. We have no chance to accuse her for those things. She thinks out throughly her actions and always reflects on her mistakes.
And thanks to the fact the Light Novels aren't auto-wimpifying every other character besides Layfon she isn't look like a weak fighter at all. Just it's ovbvious that layfon's a whole other league.
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Old 2009-08-22, 22:35   Link #219
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That's just an effect of the different mediums, willyvereb. A novel can get away with over-explaining things but it's a different thing entirely if it's a visual medium. I think anime!Nina (despite how I may have some complaints with the anime in general) has been portrayed dynamically and complex enough. Besides, from what little I've read of the novels, I didn't really notice that much difference between their portrayals (except for the power/strength upgrades, that is); LN!Nina is just as much forceful (when it comes to her team) as the one in the anime, and I wouldn't really have it any other way.

In short, sometimes less is more.
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Old 2009-08-23, 00:54   Link #220
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It's not just the effect of different mediums. They somehow messed up the plot, change the time of persional revelations thus rendered some of Nina's actions quite unexplained. On the top ofit they added some unwanted extra. It's not just the effect of cutting out scenes and internal monolouges.Even without that she would show a face closer to the LN's.
True maybe if we analyse througly her actions she may remain the same, but most of the viewers don't have time or mood for that.
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