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Old 2009-06-30, 03:02   Link #201
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
So we've gone from "Haruhi winding back time 14 days repeatedly for 594 years" to "Mikuru may or may not know how time travel works correctly"?

It is entirely possible that the explainations we get are not the entire story, since we generally only get theories out of Itsuki, who would only have early 21st centry (or perhaps only very late 20th century) theories to work with. Mikuru can only give a limited amount of information before she gets "classifed information" block. They don't usually ask Yuki to give all out explainations because none of them can handle the amount of data she can put out, plus she even admits that the verbal communication system can cause errors in the transfere of data for her species.

So we are left with whatever Kyon is given most of the time, along with what we think we can observe through him of Haruhi's actions. He may or may not be reliable for information.

Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek).

We know Yuki can stop time in a localized area. Her species reportedly has superior time travel abilities to the future humans represented by Mikuru. Yuki however states that what matters is that all data gets from one point in time to another...how it gets there does not matter. In her case, she more or less downloaded her future self's data into the past to interact correctly with Mikuru and Kyon, then froze all data in a localized area until the time around it reached the correct time frame. It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops. If this is the case, then Yuki could be even older than 600 years old mentally. Placed on the planet, downloads future self once (3 years added), downloads future self again (or tries to anyway) (597 years added), 3 years waiting for Kyon, Endless Eight (594 years added), 1 year to present plus or minus additional minor loops....if she relived the Endless Eight twice due to a possible second download...lord...1,198 years old by the end of Book 9? Assuming she mentally relived those first 3 years over again twice due to downloading. If not, she may be lucky and only have to be 598 years old by the end of Book 9.

Old woman Yuki needs a hug baddly.
I don't think Yuki bothered to reset herself after the synchonization. Why should she, when it wouldn't make any difference to her actions in the interim. Unlike with the Endless Eight scenario, the same timeframe isn't reoccurring over and over, so there's no variation. It's only a matter of Yuki pulling a particularly prescient Dr. Manhatten from the time she initiated the synchronization (3ya!Yuki) to the time she synchronized to (BLR?!Yuki). From her point of view, it may not have even seemed like multiple times through, since she never didn't synchronize. Also, Endless Eight doesn't necessarily play into it, as that happened after the events of BLR and the time that Yuki wrote out the bookmark, which is the logical time that 3ya!Yuki would have synchronized forward to.

The thing with Endless Eight is that her consciousness lives through that in its entirety, since there's variation from iteration to iteration, that it is her job to observe. Kinda why I think it might be interesting if KyoAni ran this last upcoming Endless Eight from Yuki's point of view. Technically it would be "filler", but I don't think anyone would mind such a stunt. Except for the Yuki-hating unbelievers, but no one cares about them...
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Old 2009-06-30, 07:32   Link #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Facts: We know Mikuru can travel though time. She can take at least one person with her. We know that two versions of Mikuru can occupy the same time plane at the same time (though the younger one is not to gain knowledge of her older self in the time plane). We know that the two Mikurus can physically contact each other without the universe exploding (Mikuru(BIG) touched Mikuru(small)'s cheek).
It's not that Mikuru(small) can't see Mikuru(big), Mikuru(small) can only see her older self if the older self remembers seeing her older self. If that worked out grammatically is up to you.

Quote:
It is assumed she reset herself to her three years ago version after they left, but I'm not sure if this can be confirmed, or if she keeps experiancing multiple time loops because of Kyon, Mikuru, and Haruhi's actions in time travel and "endless" loops.
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I don't think Yuki bothered to reset herself after the synchonization. Why should she, when it wouldn't make any difference to her actions in the interim. Unlike with the Endless Eight scenario, the same timeframe isn't reoccurring over and over, so there's no variation. It's only a matter of Yuki pulling a particularly prescient Dr. Manhatten from the time she initiated the synchronization (3ya!Yuki) to the time she synchronized to (BLR?!Yuki). From her point of view, it may not have even seemed like multiple times through, since she never didn't synchronize. Also, Endless Eight doesn't necessarily play into it, as that happened after the events of BLR and the time that Yuki wrote out the bookmark, which is the logical time that 3ya!Yuki would have synchronized forward to.
It is never elaborated on, but it is almost guaranteed that the 3ya version of Yuki retained all of the data that was sent back during syncronization. The fact that she both knew when the crisis at the end of Melancholy was going to happen and that she knew to give syncronize is evidence.

On the other hand, if we do assume that the syncronization occurs only within that 3 years, then Yuki's ability to predict the future would be evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
The thing with Endless Eight is that her consciousness lives through that in its entirety, since there's variation from iteration to iteration, that it is her job to observe. Kinda why I think it might be interesting if KyoAni ran this last upcoming Endless Eight from Yuki's point of view. Technically it would be "filler", but I don't think anyone would mind such a stunt. Except for the Yuki-hating unbelievers, but no one cares about them...
Filler or not, they'll have to show how the Kyon gets them out of the mess.
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Old 2009-06-30, 21:35   Link #203
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Filler or not, they'll have to show how the Kyon gets them out of the mess.
Yuki's present when that happens. There's been enough foreshadowing of how he does it that we won't necessarily need his inner monologue at the time. That and the plot of next episode should be much more like the second E8 than the first E8 was. Almost identical, as a matter of fact, right up until a few minutes from the end, considering how close the second E8 was to the novel. They'll need something to differentiate this one from the previous versions of E8.
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:03   Link #204
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From a thermodynamics point of view, each time reset would be require literally astronomically-high amounts of energy. When a cycle is reset, gas that has dispersed must be recollected into its original distribution. Photons that have escaped the stars must be restored to their original positions. Anything that has decayed (geological, biological, astrological, etc.) would need an outside source of energy to restore the original state of the universe (If the second law of thermodynamics is to be observed). I won't speculate on how exactly time travel works, but there is a HUGE difference in entropy from one state of the universe to the next. Where Haruhi pulls this energy from worries me a bit.

Does she use something akin to Maxwell's Demon to get the required energy? Or is this impossible as wikipedia says, due to "information entropy"?

Any thoughts?
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:12   Link #205
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Any thoughts?
One thing we know is that the Data Entities confirms that she can produce anything out of nothing and is essentially a fountain of infinite data. She can produce infinite energy and mass, how she does that is our question here.

She could be a cosmic anomaly in human form, a topological defect somewhere in her mind, or be a being that's supposed to be in higher dimensions but somehow stays in the 3rd dimension. She could even be the physical manifestation of division by zero.

We will never know what she really is, because even the Data Entities have no idea.
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:28   Link #206
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I don't know about "physical manifestation of dividing by zero" since I can't wrap my head around that. But from what I *do* know, here is what I think: Haruhi represents to the Integrated Sentient Data Entity evidence that there is a space "outside" the the universe it inhabits that contains energy that Haruhi is able to tap into. Her ability to "create things out of nothing" could be the ability to shunt energy and information from outside in. She's a conduit into an outside arena that the ISDE doesn't inhabit or control. If I were the ISDE, I'd definitely be interested in potentially securing for myself a position in this outside arena.

Also, it may be a cop-out , but Mr. Tanigawa could make the universe we live in right now to be the one the ISDE is trying to expand into. =P A conclusion to the Haruhi series similar to this is something that I could be satisfied with.
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:32   Link #207
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So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:34   Link #208
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That's interesting.

Spoiler for Fullmetal Alchemist anime:
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:41   Link #209
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?
Oo, that is interesting!

If people stop buying Haruhi-related paraphernalia, then whatever developments that might occur in the plot surrounding the SOS団 would slow to a halt. Conversely, the more money and attention people in the "real world" around us dedicate to Haruhi and her brigade, the longer her world will exist for us. =P

If people became so entranced by the antics of Haruhi that they forgot their roles in society, then yes, Haruhi would be accelerating the death and decay of our world. The decay rate would be measurable in terms of anime, manga, omake, and game sales.
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:41   Link #210
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Amusingly, having her powers fueled by stealing energy from another universe would actually serve as a brilliant excuse reason for sliders to be interested in her.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-07-06, 10:49   Link #211
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Originally Posted by baltakatei View Post
I don't know about "physical manifestation of dividing by zero" since I can't wrap my head around that. But from what I *do* know, here is what I think: Haruhi represents to the Integrated Sentient Data Entity evidence that there is a space "outside" the the universe it inhabits that contains energy that Haruhi is able to tap into. Her ability to "create things out of nothing" could be the ability to shunt energy and information from outside in. She's a conduit into an outside arena that the ISDE doesn't inhabit or control. If I were the ISDE, I'd definitely be interested in potentially securing for myself a position in this outside arena.

Also, it may be a cop-out , but Mr. Tanigawa could make the universe we live in right now to be the one the ISDE is trying to expand into. =P A conclusion to the Haruhi series similar to this is something that I could be satisfied with.
Kyon remarked once that her brain could be a white hole, where she gets all the ideas. It may turn out quite true that this white hole exists and is spewing data from higher dimensions and parallel universes.
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So, theoretically speaking, it's possible that Haruhi's powers could be fueled by the death and decay of our world, or perhaps even be the cause of it?
The amount of energy that comes out of death and decay is about 0 in the face of the universe, Haruhi wouldn't have enough to fuel the scale of her doings.

Unless spirits of the dead exist and are used as a source of power.
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Old 2009-07-06, 11:10   Link #212
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Unless spirits of the dead exist and are used as a source of power.
That idea would be the place to start a Haruhi-Bleach crossover.

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Amusingly, having her powers fueled by stealing energy from another universe would actually serve as a brilliant excuse reason for sliders to be interested in her.
I'd be all for that.

But as for the amount of energy consumed by Haruhi's antics, I wonder if there is a way to quantify it? How much energy decay is directly caused by people reading the novels? How about for any given novel that is published? The amount of energy burned in response to a work of fiction would be proportional to the amount of available energy and the size/influence of the audience, right? We could at least make an order-of-magnitude guess like was done with the Drake Equation.
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Old 2009-07-08, 13:02   Link #213
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Any thoughts?
What you described (manually putting ever particle in the universe back the way it was) doesn't match the effects observed in Endless Eight. If Haruhi was putting every particle back the way it was then while it would seem like time was resetting to the characters, it wouldn't actually be doing so. This would allow time travelers from outside the time period of Endless Eight to interact with it simply by sending messages to any of the iterations they want, because all of them would be laid out to be seen.

This might help in visualizing it: Time in Haruhi has been explained as being somewhat analogous to a film, with each moment being an individual slide. In your example, there would be 500-some years worth of film of those two weeks playing over and over again. What I think Haruhi did was cut those two weeks out of the film and tape the ends of it together in such a way that the projector would just keep playing them over and over. Thus, no matter how many iterations there were, once reattached to the rest of the film there would only be those two weeks of film.

The differences in the iterations may come from the IDTE which, being outside of time, was unaffected and its knowledge could have influenced each of the loops (through Nagato's behavior, perhaps).
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:23   Link #214
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Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:32   Link #215
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Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?
Sort of. As has been explained to me, it's more Mikuru's assertion that her presence in the past cannot have any effect on the future that is bunk.
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Old 2009-07-08, 14:42   Link #216
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Haruhi's loop may reset perfectly each time, but after the reset probability sets in again, changing the outcome in minor (or major) ways each time...until it loops again.

Bit errors each time, but they don't seem to mount up since she's using the original as her copy source rather than copy of a copy of a copy.

And while the Time Travellers can't penetrate the loop (perhaps they could, but Mikuru's problem is that she's attempting to get contact from relative time ahead of her rather than actual time ahead of her, the she's connecting with loop 12,000 from loop 373 rather than 2009 to whatever year she is from. Thus her temporal coordinates are off enough that she doesn't make contact...her device is off tune, rather the future not existing), the aliens (or at least Yuki) are still fully intact each loop.

The aliens exist outside of Haruhi's space-time loop, thus at least Yuki's memories do not reset. One assumes she could be in contact with the outside world still, or she's managed to sync up with a future version that is far enough ahead to be outside the loop, thus she might know exactly when the loop with end...though that doesn't mean she won't be bored while still in the loop.

On the other hand, maybe the "future" does not exist anymore. There are in a sealed loop of time-space, never ending, always repeating. Mikuru's people are gone since there will never be a September, much less a future. Yuki's people are also gone, but her own mind exists outside of time, therefore there is a dimention that Haruhi's loop does not effect. However she might not be able to sync with a future self because there still is no future to sync with. Thus she does not know how to escape, nor when the looping will end, only what has happened inside the loop since it began.

The probability is about the only thing keeping Yuki even the slightest bit sane. Minor things excite her now. A new bug she catches, a new star to look at. A different mask to buy. A different set of clothes to see. (I'm suprised Yuki hasn't started wearing different clothes other than her school uniform over all these loops, just to keep from being bored.) Shifts in the weather, slight variations in activities. All things that keep Yuki from loosing herself. It isn't much as you can see the looping is getting to her by loop 15,498.

The techincal question is...what happens when they do escape the loop? What is time-space like when it finally becomes September 1st for Haruhi? Is everything in its correct place in the 4 dimentions she is known to be effecting with her loop? Will it be as if no loops happened (aside from Yuki's knowledge and the rest of the group's knowledge that they were looping)? Or will the universe outside be several hundred years older than it should be on Earth?
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Old 2009-07-08, 15:10   Link #217
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Except hasn't that explanation of the time stream been called out for, you know, appearing to be bunk?
Plenty of people have objected to it because of how people from the future have seemed to influence the past even though the film analogy seems like it would prohibit such things, but I don't think it has been refuted. I recall Nagato saying something about how the time travelers' knowledge of time travel was incomplete, but unless there's more to it that I remember it doesn't refute this particular theory of time. I suspect the problems people have with Mikuru's explanation come from the analogy she used.

Let's see what happens when we drop the film analogy and think about what we know of time travel in Haruhi and what it requires. Time travelers are from the future; this requires that the future exists in some manner that can be reached without fully experiencing the intervening time. Time travelers have traveled to the past; this requires that the past exists in some form that can be reached even after we are finished experiencing it. Thus the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously and it is our perception of events that moves. How it moves, I do not know, but that isn't important right now.

To imagine the form a universe in which this is true would take, visualize an object, any object will do. Visualize the object in empty space and designate left and right as "past" and "future." Now imagine a chain of that object extending to the left leading to that object's creation and one to the right extending to its destruction. Congratulations, you have just imagined the 4D shape of an object. Extend this to the whole universe.

So in Endless Eight Haruhi has cut out a two-week segment of the universe and attached its ends together. There is no moving everything back because she has altered the 4D shapes of everything in the universe. The characters don't perceive this because they aren't capable of seeing 4D shapes without moving through time.

Ugh, I'm not sure if I was able to explain that adequately. Language sure is an inconvenient way of transmitting information.

Anyone got a better explanation?
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Old 2009-07-08, 15:20   Link #218
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On the other hand, maybe the "future" does not exist anymore.
This is actually stated in the show. There is no future beyond the loop end, which is the reason why Mikuru cannot return to her future or contact it. And that's why Yuki wouldn't be able to synchronize with her future.

Quite the disaster, if you think about it.

Yuki would however, be able to access her memories after a loop. I imagine it like that. End of the holidays, time loops. First thing that happens is that Yuki get's the information of what happend, since the Entity isn't affected by the time loop.

Not only would she think "I see, we've been repeating the holidays over and over again", she'd also have all the memories and experiences back, which leads to the boredom.
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Old 2009-07-08, 20:50   Link #219
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This is actually stated in the show. There is no future beyond the loop end, which is the reason why Mikuru cannot return to her future or contact it. And that's why Yuki wouldn't be able to synchronize with her future.

Quite the disaster, if you think about it.
I've forgotton how the Haruhi universe really works in regards to time (in fact, I'm not sure it's ever been definitively established), but if there is "No Future" there should be no Mikuru, either. I don't know if that's ever been resolved, but it certainly is good material for fanwank.
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Old 2009-07-09, 01:57   Link #220
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I've forgotton how the Haruhi universe really works in regards to time (in fact, I'm not sure it's ever been definitively established), but if there is "No Future" there should be no Mikuru, either. I don't know if that's ever been resolved, but it certainly is good material for fanwank.
Are you saying laws of time and space has more power than Haruhi?

Haruhi want Mikuru there, so Mikuru is there. There is nothing to resolve; Haruhi is LAW. As such all temporal theories kneel before her.

All you need to know is this; there are rules concerning Time and Space in Haruhi's universe, and everyone follow it, even Yuki's people. But Haruhi does not. For Haruhi, there IS no rule. She decides how the universe works.
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