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Old 2009-07-10, 00:30   Link #1121
asaqe
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Indeed, please the fans who hate him by killing Jesus off for good, make him be loved by those whom loved Kira by making him a martyr whom died for peace.

And also another one was the laser guided kill'em all karma gun. I actually thought Luna would have been dead or at least someone Kira loved and cared for.
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Old 2009-07-10, 00:32   Link #1122
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Ive got my pitchfork and torch ready.. where do we meet up???
Um... let me know. I gotta go and pick out my pitchfork.
I want the ones where the prongs detach and auto target like Fangs/DRAGOONs
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Old 2009-07-10, 02:14   Link #1123
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man!, if only they should have made kira a cyborg space ninja instead after their mansion was blown up & killing lacus & the kids in the process while he manages to survive despite losing some of his limbs & promise to carry on her will to stop wars as "space robo ninja yamato" in the shadows & with shin as his accidental GAR "student" of course, instead of making him a total idiot

well atleast SRW manages to fix some of that....

also Destiny is not that bad, its just a terrible writing NOT a crap!!, despite the worst rip-offs parts....

who ever the person that says its a CRAP & causing the fandom to turn into chaos, yeah!!, lets Bright-punch that person!!!

now what will look like, if only Taniguchi directed "SEED" instead of Fukuda..... hmmm?
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:25   Link #1124
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS
Well the point was that under the Destiny Plan it wouldn't matter whether you were a corperate CEO or a janitor as everyone would supposedly be treated the same and get what they need and people would all make nice and make their sole priority doing "good" things.
I don't recall the show itself ever explaining in detail how the Destiny Plan functioned (as opposed to what it was supposed to accomplish). Can you point out where this is laid out?

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
Maybe. The Destiny Plan is Technocratic Genetic Communism That works (tm), except that it's neither based on actual genetics, communism, nor would it actually work IRL. But then, most of Seed (and Gundam in general) wouldn't actually work IRL, so you just have to accept it as is... which is that it actually does establish peace, and isn't some dystopian nightmare. (Dissidents who dislike the plan, for example, are free to leave whenever they like.)
A good part of the theme of Destiny is that grand plans like this don't work; and that trying to implement them blindly is likely to produce a result counter to the original goal.

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Originally Posted by winter45
Well seed is a fictional world with fictional works and charactors.. I cant see y destiny's plan cant workout. If the world can have world peace with lacus around even tho i think its a load of horse S**T, its still a fictional setting with fictional crap!
The reason why the Destiny Plan won't work is because it doesn't take into account human nature. While it's quite possible to have extended periods of peace (at least regionally), ending war is impossible using some sort of grand scheme. Heck, even unpopular concepts that are universally recognized are impossible to eradicate in this manner. Having the Destiny Plan magically work is just as bad as having some sort of plan that uses some means to eradicate racism, or laziness or that make all children behave properly. People just don't tick that way, and one of the strengths of Seed Destiny is that it is fully understands this, and works it into the story (albeit a bit clumsily).
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:35   Link #1125
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The whole point to end wars is just plain silly. Until humanity can get rid of our dark nature we wont ever get rid of it. One fights for peace that is cool but will never be eternal peace. Hence y i do think destiny as a whole (the show and the plan) a fail.

We sure can have our periods of peace time.. but its matter of time before somewhere in the world war will start again.
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:43   Link #1126
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The whole point to end wars is just plain silly. Until humanity can get rid of our dark nature we wont ever get rid of it. One fights for peace that is cool but will never be eternal peace. Hence y i do think destiny as a whole (the show and the plan) a fail.
But that's precisely what Destiny argues as well. That was the whole point of the exchange:

"What if the flowers get ruined again?"
"Then we'll just have to put them there again."

Why would you have a problem when the show delivers the same theme that you believe?
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:53   Link #1127
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But that's precisely what Destiny argues as well. That was the whole point of the exchange:

"What if the flowers get ruined again?"
"Then we'll just have to put them there again."

Why would you have a problem when the show delivers the same theme that you believe?
You could say im more a prevention guy over cure....

Meaning let one side win instead of intervening and postponing something that will happen again more than likely in a short period of time.

While it may be ruthless but at least your enemies are not in a military position to counterattack you in a very near future. (this will also mean occupation)

But lets not go into detail we can argue till eternity over this subject (There will be no right or wrong way and depending on if you have ethics or morals will determine what u think is the best way which consequently mean endless debate of getting no where if someone doesnt agree)
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Old 2009-07-10, 12:16   Link #1128
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You could say im more a prevention guy over cure....

Meaning let one side win instead of intervening and postponing something that will happen again more than likely in a short period of time.

While it may be ruthless but at least your enemies are not in a military position to counterattack you in a very near future. (this will also mean occupation)
Historically, this doesn't work, and letting one side "win" has generally lead to a much greater disaster than having a stalemate situation. In the less abstract sense, there hasn't been an opportunity for the protagonists in either Seed or Destiny to do this, although the balance of power has shifted so that the EA is no longer capable of much aggression.

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But lets not go into detail we can argue till eternity over this subject (There will be no right or wrong way and depending on if you have ethics or morals will determine what u think is the best way which consequently mean endless debate of getting no where if someone doesnt agree)
Nonsense. The morals of this debate are quite straightforward. In fact, I even agree with most of your points; it's just that you don't seem to be applying them properly to Destiny.
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Old 2009-07-10, 12:23   Link #1129
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Historically, this doesn't work, and letting one side "win" has generally lead to a much greater disaster than having a stalemate situation. In the less abstract sense, there hasn't been an opportunity for the protagonists in either Seed or Destiny to do this, although the balance of power has shifted so that the EA is no longer capable of much aggression.


Nonsense. The morals of this debate are quite straightforward. In fact, I even agree with most of your points; it's just that you don't seem to be applying them properly to Destiny.
4tran i respect that you dont fully agree with me but im am not going to reply to your responses. Personal experiance has taught me this will not get either of us anywhere.
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Old 2009-07-10, 17:05   Link #1130
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't recall the show itself ever explaining in detail how the Destiny Plan functioned (as opposed to what it was supposed to accomplish). Can you point out where this is laid out?


A good part of the theme of Destiny is that grand plans like this don't work; and that trying to implement them blindly is likely to produce a result counter to the original goal.


The reason why the Destiny Plan won't work is because it doesn't take into account human nature. While it's quite possible to have extended periods of peace (at least regionally), ending war is impossible using some sort of grand scheme. Heck, even unpopular concepts that are universally recognized are impossible to eradicate in this manner. Having the Destiny Plan magically work is just as bad as having some sort of plan that uses some means to eradicate racism, or laziness or that make all children behave properly. People just don't tick that way, and one of the strengths of Seed Destiny is that it is fully understands this, and works it into the story (albeit a bit clumsily).
4tran, the Destiny Plan does work. It's a canonical fact via the side material (Delta Seed Astray, IIRC), and it's already been enacted in the Seed-verse in Mars. Durandle's DP is said to be the same as the one enacted on Mars, which has been successful at ending all wars there.

Yes, it's unreasonable. Illogical. Impossible. It's magical. But then, so are space whales and the genetic babble behind coordinators. Like it or hate it, the Destiny Plan works by the creator's own admission.
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Old 2009-07-10, 19:51   Link #1131
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The fact that Durandal plans to enforce the DP through brute force suggests it isn't exactly like Mars. Mars is a very remote society and sort of needs it to survive.

I don't believe it was offically confirmed that Durandal's plan IS the Mars plan. Rather that it works on Mars and Durandal got the idea from there. But like I said Durandal in ep 48 sure doesn't look like he'll be very forgiving for people that aren't interested in the Plan while Mars apparantly has no problem with that.
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Old 2009-07-10, 20:24   Link #1132
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He, arguably, intended to enact it through force. How it would be maintained was never addressed. Besides, wasn't the mars plan enacted through a war? At least there were many wars before the plan was enforced, which keeps it analogous to Earth.

Either way, it's another classic case of 'do the ends justify the ends?' Lacus and Kira, at least, felt yes, so I'd personally consider the end case of what happens after either Durandle or Lacus and co had succeded. One was peace across a planet which had regularly fallen into genocidal warfare and racism, and the other... didn't solve the problems that caused it to happen.
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Old 2009-07-10, 20:39   Link #1133
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He, arguably, intended to enact it through force. How it would be maintained was never addressed. Besides, wasn't the mars plan enacted through a war? At least there were many wars before the plan was enforced, which keeps it analogous to Earth.
Could you point a reference of these wars in the manga? I thought the Mars colony was specifically made to accomodate a DP-like plan. In other words, they chose that type of system when they made the colony, but it's been a while since I read the manga.
Quote:
Either way, it's another classic case of 'do the ends justify the ends?' Lacus and Kira, at least, felt yes, so I'd personally consider the end case of what happens after either Durandle or Lacus and co had succeded. One was peace across a planet which had regularly fallen into genocidal warfare and racism, and the other... didn't solve the problems that caused it to happen.
I believe the more realistic end case is that on one hand, you have the possibility of lasting peace (it's still a possibility, just because it may have worked in Mars doesn't mean it will work everywhere and who's to say that the Mars colony would never have war in the future) all at the cost of freedom over your destiny and all the implications this will have on the coordinator vs natural issue. On the other hand you have the status quo, where while there may still be wars, there will also be times of peace and growth.
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Old 2009-07-10, 20:54   Link #1134
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Could you point a reference of these wars in the manga? I thought the Mars colony was specifically made to accomodate a DP-like plan. In other words, they chose that type of system when they made the colony, but it's been a while since I read the manga.
Afraid I can't, though I recall that the Martian conflicts were the impetus for the Destiny Plan in the first place.


Quote:
I believe the more realistic end case is that on one hand, you have the possibility of lasting peace (it's still a possibility, just because it may have worked in Mars doesn't mean it will work everywhere and who's to say that the Mars colony would never have war in the future) all at the cost of freedom over your destiny and all the implications this will have on the coordinator vs natural issue. On the other hand you have the status quo, where while there may still be wars, there will also be times of peace and growth.
It would work because the producer said it would work. I'd have to dig and find the interview (Red Zaku at Seed forum could direct you), but the director flat out said the Destiny Plan would work. It was supposed to, in an ideal series, have been part of the tragic aspect of Shinn's defeat; that an achievable future of peace was lost.

There really hasn't been a peace yet in the Seed-verse. What occurred between the two wars was rebuilding for the next war, and that was as much because both sides were exhausted to the point of collapse in the first war. Each war devestated the planet and destroyed major parts of the human population each time, and nothing in the inter-war time can really recover that. The Seed-verse isn't a pattern of war, peace, and growth, it's been a pattern of decimation, massacre, and exhaustion.
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Old 2009-07-10, 21:03   Link #1135
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
It would work because the producer said it would work. I'd have to dig and find the interview (Red Zaku at Seed forum could direct you), but the director flat out said the Destiny Plan would work. It was supposed to, in an ideal series, have been part of the tragic aspect of Shinn's defeat; that an achievable future of peace was lost.
Who said it wouldn't work?

It would work perfectly. There would be no more war. But what you have not considered is the fact that war is replaced by a Police-state where people are dragged off in the middle of the night and shot because they dared to secretly do jobs that they weren't assigned to.

"The Plan will work" is a meaningless word when happiness is not part of the equation. People will be miserable under the Destiny Plan, but it would "work" because they would be powerless to rebel against it.
All the more reason that the Clyne Faction had to destroy it; because Destiny Plan works, it would mean an eternity of humanity's enslavement under a despotic power. They HAVE to succeed or there would be no future for the children.
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Old 2009-07-10, 21:42   Link #1136
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Who said it wouldn't work?
Monstert, just two posts above you. When he says "just because it may have worked in Mars doesn't mean it will work everywhere and who's to say that the Mars colony would never have war in the future", which is contradicted by the higher authority.

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It would work perfectly. There would be no more war. But what you have not considered is the fact that war is replaced by a Police-state where people are dragged off in the middle of the night and shot because they dared to secretly do jobs that they weren't assigned to.
No it isn't. The Destiny Plan as seen on Mars has none of that, and anyone and everyone not content with the Destiny Plan is free to leave. Nothing in the anime or manga suggest that Durandle was going to change the Mars plan into a Gestapo police state. Midnight police visits and arbitrary executions are a fan invention of the Destiny Plan.
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"The Plan will work" is a meaningless word when happiness is not part of the equation. People will be miserable under the Destiny Plan, but it would "work" because they would be powerless to rebel against it.
The vast majority of people under the Destiny Plan are content with their lives, and those who aren't are allowed to seek it elsewhere if they wish. Even those who reject the plan and leave Mars don't hate it and vow to topple the system from outside.

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All the more reason that the Clyne Faction had to destroy it; because Destiny Plan works, it would mean an eternity of humanity's enslavement under a despotic power. They HAVE to succeed or there would be no future for the children.
...you don't even realize that you're making half of what you're saying up, do you? Because none of that is at all supported by the facts of what the Destiny Plan actually is, how it works, or what it's affects are. The results of the Destiny Plan are demonstrated to be near universal contentment, freedom of expression, movement, and thought, and an end to racism and war. It isn't a Soviet communist police state.
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Old 2009-07-10, 21:44   Link #1137
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All that was said about Mars was that it had never ever had a war under the DP. No previous history of wars before it since it could haven't been there for more than a few decades (George Glenn was the first person to travel into deeper space wasn't he? and that was only like 50 years before Seed)

Also that interview might not even exist at all since people have only posted a so called "translation" and never the original article. Furthermore that article makes little sense as is because Fukuda claims that there will be no war yet some people will always reject the Plan because they were "Have nots" and fight against it, and thus that means war. Which is a total paradox.

Don't listen to Red Zaku on this. He's totally biased against Lacus and Kira(since he's hated both of them and prayed for their death since Seed first came out) and interprets the article in a way to make them look bad. He also for some reason believes Durandal is for some reason not capable of lying and every word of his is total truth.
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Old 2009-07-10, 21:55   Link #1138
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Afraid I can't, though I recall that the Martian conflicts were the impetus for the Destiny Plan in the first place.


It would work because the producer said it would work. I'd have to dig and find the interview (Red Zaku at Seed forum could direct you), but the director flat out said the Destiny Plan would work. It was supposed to, in an ideal series, have been part of the tragic aspect of Shinn's defeat; that an achievable future of peace was lost.

There really hasn't been a peace yet in the Seed-verse. What occurred between the two wars was rebuilding for the next war, and that was as much because both sides were exhausted to the point of collapse in the first war. Each war devestated the planet and destroyed major parts of the human population each time, and nothing in the inter-war time can really recover that. The Seed-verse isn't a pattern of war, peace, and growth, it's been a pattern of decimation, massacre, and exhaustion.
Wait so what was the reason fighting Durandall again? Because I seriously can't remember the reason for fighting against Durandall?
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Old 2009-07-10, 22:07   Link #1139
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Is red zaku a member of this forum???? Who is he???

DP seemed promising that war will be reduced.. but yeah whatever Lacus and kira came in and crash the party..

Besides any dramatic change of governemnt usually leads to war before a reformation can take place. History is full of examples.

Btw when i read the manga few years back.. i dont recall mars had a state police or secret service to drag u out of the night.. The option to leave is there if your not happy how the government is runned. (my memmory is very rusty)
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Old 2009-07-10, 22:13   Link #1140
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It would work because the producer said it would work. I'd have to dig and find the interview (Red Zaku at Seed forum could direct you), but the director flat out said the Destiny Plan would work. It was supposed to, in an ideal series, have been part of the tragic aspect of Shinn's defeat; that an achievable future of peace was lost.
That's actually an interesting take of the series if that were true. And for the producer to just say that, just wow. But as a counter point, the in-universe itself says it won't work because there are already people who opposed it for whatever reason. So yeah, maybe ideally it would work for the producer but the CE universe is not an ideal place and the people living there do not have the luxury of knowing that DP would work on such a larger scale. And since that future is lost (at least for the moment), that proves that DP is for now just an ideal future of both the PLANT chairman and the SEED producer.
Quote:
There really hasn't been a peace yet in the Seed-verse. What occurred between the two wars was rebuilding for the next war, and that was as much because both sides were exhausted to the point of collapse in the first war. Each war devestated the planet and destroyed major parts of the human population each time, and nothing in the inter-war time can really recover that. The Seed-verse isn't a pattern of war, peace, and growth, it's been a pattern of decimation, massacre, and exhaustion.
Well maybe not during the scope of the SEED series, but before and after we don't know. And the fact that they were actively using nuclear energy somewhat showed that the general public were not in constant fear of nuclear holocaust or simply the general misuse of it.
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