AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Haruhi Suzumiya

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-07-05, 00:55   Link #61
quigonkenny
WRYYYYY!!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Elkia
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekul View Post
She's not necessarily evil, just untrustworthy. Out of the whole brigade, she arguably contributes the least. Koizumi has the same potential of being untrustworthy, but it seems unlikely because he acts too suspicious to be untrustworthy. He and Nagato (IIRC) have stated their allegiance to the SoS brigade first, and their respective organizations second. Mikuru has done no such thing. She also does not hang around Kyon much, but this could be to subvert Haruhi's wrath. Also, she and Nagato seem to have some uncomfortable reactions to eachother, something not present between Nagato and Koizumi.

She doesn't seem sincere to me. I realize that she probably is trustworthy in all likeliness, but it's a theory I like to entertain. Her character isn't as deep as it could be so being untrustworthy, even if she's not a malefactor, would accomplish that.
Wow... You really need to read this and take it to heart...

Mikuru acts uncomfortable around Yuki because she is uncomfortable around Yuki. One of the few things she is fully aware of is just how powerful Yuki is, and just how easily she can make Mikuru's life a living hell non-existence. Itsuki doesn't act uncomfortable around Yuki because he doesn't act uncomfortable around anyone. His true feelings in any situation are almost universally hidden behind his Kitsune smile, and the few times he lets that mask down, it isn't pretty.

And I don't know where you got the idea that untrustworthiness has any correlation with lack of contribution. Mikuru doesn't contribute anything other than being cute, because she can't contribute anything else for fear of eliciting a paradox from Haruhi. Yuki can do whatever she needs to due to her massive level of ability. Itsuki babbles on and on about how things work because an inherent part of his ability is insight into Haruhi's psyche and his job is to regulate that, which requires a consuming knowledge of the "why"s and "how"s. To that end, he has a fair number of "coworkers" in the Organization (and Kyon) to bounce his ideas off of. Mikuru's abilities begin and end with looking cute, making snacks and tea, and travelling through time. The first two are harmless and simple, so she does them all the time (much to the betterment of Haruhi's mood, I'd wager), but the last one has to be strictly limited (at least around or involving others) for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The thing is...why is Mikuru(BIG) overseeing part of the operation of Mikuru(small)? They shouldn't be from the same time period.
We don't know that Mikuru(big) oversees Mikuru(small). All we have to go on that is Kyon's questionable conclusion based on Haruhi-knows-what. In the few times we've seen Mikuru(big), all she's been is a more knowledgeable (and somewhat more mature, mentally) Mikuru, which is just what Kyon has needed at those specific times. No sign of heirarchy or control over Mikuru(small) has been evident (other than her ability to put her to sleep, which is a common enough ability by later in the series that a joke is made about it). One would assume she has some level of celebrity among her ilk (she spent all that time around Haruhi in her youth, after all), but she's still just a tool to them. She's just an older, more knowledgeable, and apparently wiser tool (though not enough to avoid blowing her job and creating an information paradox her first time out).
__________________
quigonkenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-05, 01:11   Link #62
Jintor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Land Down Under
Age: 23
Big Mikuru is a hell of a lot more 'frightening' or 'intimiadating' (not the correct words, but nearly analoguous) in the manga than in the anime or light novels despite saying essentially the same thing. I'm not sure if this is because of the slightly different artstyle or what.
Jintor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-05, 01:24   Link #63
Kogetsu Shirogane
Crackshipper
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mitakihara
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
It isn't Mikuru(small) that people are accusing of being evil, it's Mikuru(big). Which is caused entirely by Volume 7, where she had Kyon, among other things, injure someone just so he'd meet his future wife, as well as drag "Michiru" around so she could get kidnapped.
__________________
Kyouko Sakura and Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... well at least it's consistent...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-05, 02:58   Link #64
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
It isn't Mikuru(small) that people are accusing of being evil, it's Mikuru(big). Which is caused entirely by Volume 7, where she had Kyon, among other things, injure someone just so he'd meet his future wife, as well as drag "Michiru" around so she could get kidnapped.
If I needed to get injured in order to meet the girl of my dreams, then HELL let me get injured. I fail to see the problem here.

And Mikuru was going to get kidnapped one way or another, the only question is which Mikuru. It was done for her own protection, so I don't see the problem here either.

Adult Mikuru is just young Mikuru who got older. I fail to see how they are any different from one another. The scene with the mole pretty much showed that she is still the same person inside.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-05, 03:00   Link #65
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Actually wasn't it done so that the kidnapping wouldn't happen in front of Haruhi? Because who knows what Haruhi would do if someone stole her favorate plaything from in front of her?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-05, 03:05   Link #66
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Actually wasn't it done so that the kidnapping wouldn't happen in front of Haruhi? Because who knows what Haruhi would do if someone stole her favorate plaything from in front of her?
Either way, it was Kyon's choice to continue with the time loop; he was the one who sent Mikuru back in time, after all.

The fact is, the kidnapping was happening. It was something pre-determined, the question is what Adult Mikuru would do about it.

I still fail to see why that would imply Adult Mikuru is manipulating anyone. Adult Mikuru had no choice; she doesn't have the kind of freedom Kyon and Haruhi had in making their own destiny. Mikuru could only protect her own past. Manipulation assumes Mikuru had any SAY in the matter.

Which brings up my old-school theory, that the TRUE villains are trying to manipulate the past for real, by attempting to destroy the creation of the time machine.
And to do that, they would need to do more than just running over a schoolboy with a van; they would have to terminate ground-zero of the origin of time travel theory, of Haruhi herself.

THAT's manipulation, of the highest degree.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-09, 09:00   Link #67
Tabasco
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 31
That may technically be manipulation, but only in the sense that punching someone in the face is technically a frank exchange of views.

I'm of two minds on the Mikuru Problem. On the one hand, there is evidence that both versions are exactly as presented, and that they are more or less functioning as time's hall monitors, keeping order and preventing others from monkeying with the past. One of these functions being, observing Haruhi which is the younger Mikuru's job.

On the other, and I'll admit right up front there's not much evidence beyond my own impressions, is that something isn't adding up. I can't shake the feeling that while they probably are everything they say they are, something else is going on too. Haruhi obviously picked everyone in the brigade to match up to her character profiles, but either she really struck it lucky in finding Mikuru, or she's tailor made for the role. Literally, whether she knows it or not.

Or on the immaterial hand, I'm being paranoid, possibly due to exposure to spy novels at a formative age.
Tabasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 13:06   Link #68
l-l-lain
All hail Haruhi-sama!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK (cyberspace location: lailailain@gmail.com)
The Fan-Fixing of Haruhi Suzumiya!

OK folks, here we are, suffering (or some few still enjoying, hehehe) Endless Eight, aka The Boredom of Yuki Nagato... I'd just like to offer a few thoughts on how, uh, "fixable" this situation is...

Suppose in some dream-world we fans had unlimited animation talent (and time ), then heck, anything is fixable, we just re-animate the whole damn thing according to taste! But we don't - so...

I'm defining fan-fixing as taking the existing footage - maybe chopped up and time-shifted if desired, since that's easy enough - and re-dubbing/subbing the minimum amount required to achieve some change.

Good fan-fixing could be a new minor art-form: can a few minutes', even a few seconds', worth of change achieve a gigantic improvement to the whole way an arc goes? - and even to the way it fits into a whole series?

Well, I have some thoughts specifically about fan-fixing E8, but I'll put them in my next post, to keep this one as just "launching the concept"...

Next post to follow, internet connection permitting!
l-l-lain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 13:43   Link #69
l-l-lain
All hail Haruhi-sama!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK (cyberspace location: lailailain@gmail.com)
Talking The Fan-Fixing of Endless Eight!

Right! Over here in "Spoilers and Speculation" we can talk freely about the novels and all, huh? Well, if ever some story content was a motive for launching the concept of fan-fixing (see post above), it's the novel ending of Endless Eight.

Homework! Friggin' homework! What is this, a homily to the youth of Japan to mend their attention-wandering ways? If the anime delivers us that particular aspect of the novel, after all this repetition, then holy smokes, I foresee RAAAAAAAAGE of internet-cable-melting proportions.

(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself, but - homework! Nooooo! It just doesn't have adequate emotional significance for her - she's bright, she did hers long ago, it's just not a major part of her mental life!)

If you agree, and of course maybe you don't, then some serious fan-fixing is in order.

How about this then, folks:

The "SOS 4" are in a real panic as the current iteration is coming to a close. They hastily convene another late night meeting - opportunity there to use the stock footage from one or more of the dropped repeat iterations (presumably a pretty much unanimous initial fan-fix is to drop enough of the damn things to cut E8 down to size, hehehe) - and thrash out a plan to break Haruhi's subconscious preference for summer over term-time.

Basically she's on a quest for aliens, time travellers and espers... but in her heart she "knows" ("knows" falsely in fact, but... "knows"!) the real world contains no such things... so the term-time excitement of running the SOS-dan has faded for her, and all she really wants now is an endless summer of shallow fun.

Well then, someone can argue - I think Itsuki would be most in-character for this - why not plant in her mind, somehow, the idea of making a fictional movie with a plot stuffed to the brim with as much alien, time-traveller and esper goodness as she could desire? With the Movie Club's facilities ready and waiting to be hijacked in typical Haruhi style as soon as term starts, that suddenly makes summer the thing she desires to get over with, and term-time the thing she craves.

Without the ability to produce fresh animation, fan-fixing will probably just have to achieve this by a cheap hack - say, the SOS 3 beg Yuki to use her powers to inject this idea into Haruhi's mind, and (perhaps after a struggle with her own conscience about non-interference, easily representable by the copious footage of an anguished Yuki) she eventually agrees.

Hey, maybe she agrees on condition that she erases the SOS 3's minds that that's what she's done, so that, post-loop, everyone believes the movie idea is Haruhi's! Then Sighs doesn't need any consistency-fixing at all, hehehehehe

OK just my two cents' worth... thoughts welcome!
l-l-lain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 16:34   Link #70
AcroDave
Go Chrome or Go Home
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Imperial America
Quote:
Originally Posted by l-l-lain View Post
I'm defining fan-fixing as taking the existing footage - maybe chopped up and time-shifted if desired, since that's easy enough - and re-dubbing/subbing the minimum amount required to achieve some change.
This is a great idea! I'm thinking a re-edit of Clannad season 1 into a 2 hour movie... remove all the Nagisa & Fuko bits, extract out all the Kyou parts, and tack on the newly released Kyou-ending!

Quote:
Originally Posted by l-l-lain View Post
(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself
Is that what it was? Even after reading the novel, I never really did understand how doing homework together could break the loop. I hope they actually explain this better in the anime... assuming it ever ends...
AcroDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 16:53   Link #71
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Maybe Haruhi remembered Kyon's earlier comment about doing there homework. She stated that it would take three days for her to do it (and we assume she has already). But with Kyon's question, she might have in her mind that he hasn't done it yet, and realizes that she only gave him one day to finish his, thus making for one thing they didn't finished during summer. Thus she has regret and the looping starts. Why finishing the Homework breaks the loop? Haruhi now knows he's done with it so she's not worried anymore. Also it is suggested that she wanted to do one more thing during the summer, but either she couldn't put her finger on it, or else she wanted Kyon to come up with something, and he failed her (again, and again, and again, and again, and...). Thus doing their homework together fulfilled Haruhi's desire to have them all do stuff together the entire summer rather than have a day apart.

There are many ways to see it, just since we don't know what Haruhi was thinking, we'll never know for sure what it was. Only that it worked.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 20:46   Link #72
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
I don't want to second-guess what Haruhi might think of it, given that the sense of satisfaction from having someone 'elses' homework done isn't really so clear cut as the benefits to Haruhi can very alot, be it satisfaction of being helpful and/or it killed time.

I don't think footage editing of Endless Eight is required yet, as I am enjoying seeing the purposely done changes that KyoAni has implemented (which I took great pain to establish so that people can't easily say that it's just for convenience that KyoAni did it and not done so with full intent). Until then, why make life easier for people without the patience to finish all of it?
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 22:59   Link #73
topboy
poor man
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Spoiler for Just...:
topboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-12, 23:30   Link #74
Kogetsu Shirogane
Crackshipper
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mitakihara
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
... While I'm sure a lot of people would love for that to happen, the story is, at its heart, a high school romance between two people who don't really want to admit their feelings about one another. It'd essentially ruin the entire purpose of everything beyond Endless Eight.
__________________
Kyouko Sakura and Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... well at least it's consistent...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 00:50   Link #75
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Time loop stories usually end when the first suggestion is finally taken.

The first suggestion was by Kyon. The second was by Itsuki. Neither has been taken to our knowledge in any existing loop. Though Yuki may know otherwise.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 02:59   Link #76
mitsuganae
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
... While I'm sure a lot of people would love for that to happen, the story is, at its heart, a high school romance between two people who don't really want to admit their feelings about one another. It'd essentially ruin the entire purpose of everything beyond Endless Eight.
But consider the possibilities! An entire anime-original continuity could be spun. Imagine the end-of-the-world scenarios and other crises that can happen in:

The Dating of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Teen Pregnancy of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Marriage of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Divorce of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Single Motherhood of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Midlife Crisis of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Crimes of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Incarceration of Haruhi Suzumiya
mitsuganae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 03:06   Link #77
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 34
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsuganae View Post
But consider the possibilities! An entire anime-original continuity could be spun. Imagine the end-of-the-world scenarios and other crises that can happen in:

The Dating of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Teen Pregnancy of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Marriage of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Divorce of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Single Motherhood of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Midlife Crisis of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Crimes of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Incarceration of Haruhi Suzumiya
There would be riots if this happens

Anyway, since they messed up royally with E8, why not, at least it would be finally, something new.
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 03:33   Link #78
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
I'd watch The Retirement of Suzumiya Haruhi and The Mortality of Suzumiya Haruhi...
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 04:09   Link #79
TakariCritic
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by l-l-lain View Post
Homework! Friggin' homework! What is this, a homily to the youth of Japan to mend their attention-wandering ways? If the anime delivers us that particular aspect of the novel, after all this repetition, then holy smokes, I foresee RAAAAAAAAGE of internet-cable-melting proportions.

(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself, but - homework! Nooooo! It just doesn't have adequate emotional significance for her - she's bright, she did hers long ago, it's just not a major part of her mental life!)

If you agree, and of course maybe you don't, then some serious fan-fixing is in order.
Okay, I've been lurking here for a while, but you've made me feel compelled to post. Congratulations. Personally, I find it frustrating that so many fans are confused by the homework thing. I've been correcting people on 4chan for weeks about it. It's simple.

The reason why Kyon's study group breaks the timeloop is simple: It shifts Haruhi's mindset from vacation mode to the schoolyear.

Because Haruhi already did her homework, she spends her August 31st feeling unfullfilled over her summer break, and desires more. Kyon's study group has her spend her 31st with her friends in a last-minute cram party she's never taken part of before, and it also reminds her that she has more learning to do during the schoolyear.

Kyon simply doing his homework won't break the loop. He needs to have Haruhi there to break her out of the summer vacation mindset, and shift her paradigm back into school-mode.

/rant.
TakariCritic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 04:27   Link #80
Peanutbutter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
There are also Kyonists out there with a theory why Endless Eight ends the way it did.

Because Kyon doesn't want to do his homework! Once he really sets his mind to it, the loop is broken.
Peanutbutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.