AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-07-13, 00:42   Link #1201
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
What is "Stop fighting!" supposed to count as? It can be an eminently rational request if the alternative is the escalation of a conflict, but Lacus never said it in Destiny at all. Kira did say it, but only on a personal level, not as advice or as a demand for nations; and certainly not as an instrument of policy.
Wow 4Tran... you actually remember whether they said it!?

The only thing I remember from Kira was "Don't make me shoot, I don't want to shoot". =/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
"Stop Fighting!" Kira and Lacus count in my book, Lacus on multiple counts.
You really should tell me when were Lacus's multiple counts on saying "Stop fighting", to anyone at all, since you labelled her hypocritical, because I really don't see how she was being hypocritical in the whole of Destiny.

Don't worry. I'm a bloody fan, but I listen to points and acknowledge them (although I too, play devil's advocate).

Quote:
Originally Posted by his point
When a first strike is your idea for stopping fighting and dying, and then continuing to attack all sides and increasing the number of casualties is your idea of solving the problem, then yes. You are a hypocrite. A well meaning, naive hypocrite, but a hypocrite. Furthermore, shouting it out when the fighting has already escalated is even less productive.
First strike? I assume that's the part where Kira shot Minerva's Tannhauser (sp?).
Of course Kira had to shoot it. They were aiming at Orb, and he's Cagalli's brother as well as Orb's citizen.

"Continuing to attack all sides" - Yeah, he pwn'ed EA/Orb and ZAFT. Of course he had to.. Orb was being controlled by an idiotic authority, and that idiotic authority placed orders to kill his sister. He didn't really touch Minerva's side until Heine, Shinn and Athrun get all angsty about it and moves along to attacking him. So he wasn't attacking all sides, he was just defending. But if this isn't the example you are talking about, label them please.

Increasing the number of casualties? Last I recall, Kira tried to minimize as many casualties possible.

Shouting "Stop fighting", right? When?

Quote:
The people who own the franchise and have the supplementary material produced have a higher claim to the series than you.
You mean.. Fukuda.. that douchebag who doesn't really know what he's saying?

No, no. This part is between you and 4Tran, I'm just asking.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)

Last edited by Neku; 2009-07-13 at 00:53.
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 00:59   Link #1202
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post

23 and 28: Stop the Orb forces from waging war against while preventing them from getting wiped out. They placed priority on Zaft lives over Orb, but its not like Zaft wouldn't do the same thing in reverse. Kira only shot at people that were attacking him Cagalli or AA first he wasn't trying to pick a fight with everyone.
Trying or not, that's exactly what he was doing. He blew up the Minerva's main gun before it could end the battle completely in ZAFT's favor, and he shot down Orb and EF machines when they were in place to sink the Minerva, ending the battle for Orb/EA. In a fight, you don't get points if you punch both fighters in order to stop them from landing a knockout blow. You get seen as attacking all sides, and you still made the fight go on longer.

Quote:
Despite what haters say they were not in fact trying to stop the battle in general. In fact Kira and AA try to prevent Minerva from getting wiped out as well (though destroying their main gun to prevent Orb from getting totally destroyed because as I said Orb lives have priority) until Shinn starts shooting at them and basically ruins any chance of alliance (he also ruined any chance of Orb standing down as he pissed everyone off by shooting at Cagalli)
ZAFT and the EA were at war, in case you forgot. By preventing the Minerva from getting wiped out, they were picking a fight with Orb and the EA. They had already picked a fight with ZAFT before as well. Shinn has every reason to shoot at them: they aren't ZAFT, and whether you consider Cagelli to be True Orb or just plain Orb, Orb is ZAFT's enemy.

The only people for whom Orb is a priority is the ArchAngel and Orb itself. It is not ZAFT's priority, and attacking ZAFT for Orb put Kira and the AA against ZAFT.

Quote:
32: Save Berlin. Since they got there first halted Destroy's advance and conviently took out Neo and Sting for Shinn, he should have been a bit more grateful. Yeah Stellar died but she was a lost cause to begin with.
Not your call to make, anymore than excusing shots fired to protect Orb because Orb is Kira's priority. Shinn did pacify Stellar and she was standing down, and Kira ruined whatever goodwill he might have earned by killing her.
Quote:
34: Defending themselves. Arugably had Zaft not attacked them here and damaged AA and destroying Freedom they could have taken back Orb earlier and prevented Djbril from getting there at all.
You are not putting the burden of guilt on ZAFT here. Orb would have shot them out of the sky; ZAFT's invasion was what gave them the chance to get Cagelli on the ground on Orb. Half a dozen Murasames and the regular Freedom wouldn't cut it, and the EA would still be intact to support Orb.
Quote:
39: Saving Eternal from Zaft.
Which, as we know from supplementary material (irony ), had stolen high-value ZAFT mobilesuit prototypes.

Still, he didn't call out for them to stop fighting, though I do love how his idea of how to disarm a ship is to blow out its engines while in a low orbit.
Quote:
40-43: They were preventing a Zaft takeover of Orb while at the same trying to capture Djbril. They repeatedly asked for a ceasefire (which Zaft ignored as they wanted to take over Orb anyway) Had Zaft stopped their attack and let Cagalli's people try to deal with Djibril they might have stopped him but insisting on pressing the attack allowed him to get away.
Cagelli was in no position to provide a ceasefire. She's the sorta-exiled leader: if she could provide a ceasefire and get Orb to stop fighting, she would have done so well before. Cagelli had a small force and one ship under her command: ZAFT had an armada. The calculations as to who has a better chance of capturing Djirble is rather simple. Cagelli made her decision, and while she regained control of Orb it also came with the cost that her intervention allowed Djbril to escape.

Quote:
Final Battle: They are attacking Requiem to destroy it and prevent it from destroying Orb or forcing it into accepting the DP.

At all points except when defending themselves they are fighting for Orb. They weren't trying to "Stop Fighting"
You forgot the point where they were going to fight Durandal anyway, even before the doom lasers and the rest of the world had a chance to weigh in on accepting the Destiny Plan.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 01:20   Link #1203
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post

You really should tell me when were Lacus's multiple counts on saying "Stop fighting", to anyone at all, since you labelled her hypocritical, because I really don't see how she was being hypocritical in the whole of Destiny.

Don't worry. I'm a bloody fan, but I listen to points and acknowledge them (although I too, play devil's advocate).
"Stop fighting" referred to Kira. Not Lacus. I didn't mean to imply they both said it, though they certainly both had the sentiment. Lacus prayed/sang/hoped/spoke for peace and an end to fighting enough that the sentiment holds true to her.

Lacus's hypocricy of using force to fight force, waging war to end war, is something even she accepts. She has an entire monologue at the end of Seed, and it doesn't change after.


Quote:
First strike? I assume that's the part where Kira shot Minerva's Tannhauser (sp?).
Of course Kira had to shoot it. They were aiming at Orb, and he's Cagalli's brother as well as Orb's citizen.
And? That doesn't change my point at all: he's still picking sides with each decision, and in doing so is alienating the other side far more than any affection or credit he gets when he defends it. All you're doing is morally justifying the decision. In fights, you don't decide someone's alignment by averaging how many times they hit you and how many times they protected you from getting hit; once hit, twice shy and all that.

It's especially true in a battle when you prevent a decisive blow from being struck, and this is what really gets me about his actions.

When Kira stopped the Minerva from firing, he allowed dozens of EA ships and squadrons of mobile suits to launch, which in the end caused many casualties for ZAFT. Even though Kira shot down missiles that would certainly have killed more, or even sunk the ship, from a ZAFT perspective those missiles would never have been fired had the EA navy been wiped out in a single blow, and the people who did die might have otherwise survived.

Likewise, when the EA and Orb pressed the attack after Kira helped them, Kira turned his weapons on them. What could/should have been a victory was turned into a bloody stalemate as Kira nulled their attacks and disarmed their mecha, leaving them vulnerable to the Minerva and unable to support their allies. Orb especially suffered for this: the Orb pilots and military, who generally dispised Yuna and favored Cagelli, ended up throwing their lives away, literally in the case of the kamikaze grunt. And when Kira was no longer on the field, ZAFT (Shinn) wiped out the entire Orb task force, killing most of them. So even though Kira saved most of them initially, he also ended up prolonging the fight until most of them died anyway.

And in the end, that's what both sides are going to remember. Kira didn't change the battle; ZAFT eventually won, and the EA fleet was devestated. But it was bloodier and harder on both sides for his intervention.

Quote:

"Continuing to attack all sides" - Yeah, he pwn'ed EA/Orb and ZAFT. Of course he had to.. Orb was being controlled by an idiotic authority, and that idiotic authority placed orders to kill his sister. He didn't really touch Minerva's side until Heine, Shinn and Athrun get all angsty about it and moves along to attacking him. So he wasn't attacking all sides, he was just defending. But if this isn't the example you are talking about, label them please.
Blowing up the Minverva's gun was defending it? Shooting down EA suits and missiles were defending them?

Again, you're simply justifying the action, not even denying them. From Kira's perspective, it certainly was the right action. I can commend him for sticking to his beliefs.

But no one gives a damn about Kira's perspective. Orb cares about Orb's perspective. The EA cares about the EA's (many) perspectives. ZAFT cares about ZAFT's perspectives. And all of them agree: Kira attacks them all, and in the end it's only made the battle worse for them.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 02:20   Link #1204
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Ep 42. Cagalli says "try to negotiate a ceasefire with Zaft" AS SOON AS SHE TAKES COMMAND. We then cut to a Zaft commander saying "This annoying nation should just let us take it already" And outright refuse even after their target has already escaped until Talia takes over. Then of course in 48 Durandal is annoyed that Orb is refusing the Destiny Plan and his aides comment that if only Kira hasn't shown up and Orb had been more devastated during that battle they would have had no choice but to give in which suggests that Durandal had also ordered his personal troops to cause damage to Orb so it wouldn't be able to resist the DP. It isn't until Talia takes command (who isn't under Durandal's thumb) that Zaft withdraws, even though Djbril had already left.

Also at no point had Orb decided to attack Durandal prior Requiem being fired. They were prepared for it (as they didn't trust him) but at no point does anybody say "we will attack Durandal" before than.

You are paying more attention to Astray and interviews than the actual show itself. The evidence is there. I've pointed it out several times but you keep ignoring it.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 06:24   Link #1205
kaito-kid
As I make you stop, think
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 25
Quote:
Not your call to make, anymore than excusing shots fired to protect Orb because Orb is Kira's priority. Shinn did pacify Stellar and she was standing down, and Kira ruined whatever goodwill he might have earned by killing her.
I agree with you. Kira ruined whatever goodwill he might have earned by killing Stellar and saving Shinn's ass.
__________________
kaito-kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 06:35   Link #1206
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
"Stop fighting" referred to Kira. Not Lacus. I didn't mean to imply they both said it, though they certainly both had the sentiment. Lacus prayed/sang/hoped/spoke for peace and an end to fighting enough that the sentiment holds true to her.
I thought you said Lacus had multiple counts on saying "Stop fighting".
Nevermind, whatever you say then.

Quote:
Lacus's hypocricy of using force to fight force, waging war to end war, is something even she accepts. She has an entire monologue at the end of Seed, and it doesn't change after.
Where exactly is your point?
How does accepting to use force to fight force constitutes the hypocrite trait in her?

Yes, she wants peace. No, she never said anything about not using force.

Quote:
And? That doesn't change my point at all: he's still picking sides with each decision, and in doing so is alienating the other side far more than any affection or credit he gets when he defends it. All you're doing is morally justifying the decision. In fights, you don't decide someone's alignment by averaging how many times they hit you and how many times they protected you from getting hit; once hit, twice shy and all that.
He wasn't at all picking sides. He knows what he is fighting for: making the fight between EA/Orb and ZAFT stop for Cagalli.

I didn't morally justified him either, at least in that particular point of mine you chose to quote and write this wall of text for.

Quote:
It's especially true in a battle when you prevent a decisive blow from being struck, and this is what really gets me about his actions.
I see. So how does that make him a hypocrite?

Quote:
When Kira stopped the Minerva from firing, he allowed dozens of EA ships and squadrons of mobile suits to launch, which in the end caused many casualties for ZAFT. Even though Kira shot down missiles that would certainly have killed more, or even sunk the ship, from a ZAFT perspective those missiles would never have been fired had the EA navy been wiped out in a single blow, and the people who did die might have otherwise survived.
What I remember was he stunned everyone with his sudden arrival and when gunfire started again, it was all against Kira.

Also remember that when he stopped Minerva's Tannhauser, Kira and Cagalli's motives were for the current war between EA/Orb and ZAFT to end. So, if there was no idiotic authority (Yuuna) at scene in command of Orb to deny Cagalli's identity, there will be no further casualties at all for either sides.

But then again, following your point, how does accidentally forming casualties for ZAFT makes Kira a hypocrite? Did he planned for ZAFT's casualties from the start?

Quote:
Likewise, when the EA and Orb pressed the attack after Kira helped them, Kira turned his weapons on them. What could/should have been a victory was turned into a bloody stalemate as Kira nulled their attacks and disarmed their mecha, leaving them vulnerable to the Minerva and unable to support their allies. Orb especially suffered for this: the Orb pilots and military, who generally dispised Yuna and favored Cagelli, ended up throwing their lives away, literally in the case of the kamikaze grunt. And when Kira was no longer on the field, ZAFT (Shinn) wiped out the entire Orb task force, killing most of them. So even though Kira saved most of them initially, he also ended up prolonging the fight until most of them died anyway.
That doesn't make him a hypocrite. It only makes responsible for part of the casualties.

About Shinn going crazy, that wasn't in Kira's control.
So you're gonna put all the blame on Kira now? Awesome.

Quote:
And in the end, that's what both sides are going to remember. Kira didn't change the battle; ZAFT eventually won, and the EA fleet was devestated. But it was bloodier and harder on both sides for his intervention.
Still. Doesn't. Make. Him. A. Hypocrite.

Quote:
Blowing up the Minverva's gun was defending it? Shooting down EA suits and missiles were defending them?
No, no silly. Defending himself, and Cagalli when everyone started to aim their fire at them. If Athrun, Shinn etc had just stood by the side to watch the show, Kira wouldn't even bother with them.

Quote:
Again, you're simply justifying the action, not even denying them. From Kira's perspective, it certainly was the right action. I can commend him for sticking to his beliefs.
Why would I need to deny what he did?

Quote:
But no one gives a damn about Kira's perspective. Orb cares about Orb's perspective. The EA cares about the EA's (many) perspectives. ZAFT cares about ZAFT's perspectives. And all of them agree: Kira attacks them all, and in the end it's only made the battle worse for them.
Yeah, yeah. So where's the part where Kira is a hypocrite?
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 07:12   Link #1207
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Where exactly is your point?
How does accepting to use force to fight force constitutes the hypocrite trait in her?

Yes, she wants peace. No, she never said anything about not using force.
'People should not fight to achieve their goals.' 'I will fight to achieve my goals.' Both are concepts she's espoused and recognized. You don't see the contradiction?

I mean, she had an entire monologue on the matter at the final episodes of Seed. It's pretty clear she considers herself hypocritical. What most people don't realize is that hypocrisy isn't an end-all trait that invalidates everything. Lacus is hypocritical: so what? For her, it generally means she does what she thinks is best at any given situation, even if it compromises her stated ideals. If that works out for the best, it's actually a good thing, because the opposite end of hypocrisy is ideological lockstep. I just have the opinion that it doesn't work out for the best, and the naivite of her faction drives me up the walls and aggravates my opinion for it.

Quote:
He wasn't at all picking sides. He knows what he is fighting for: making the fight between EA/Orb and ZAFT stop for Cagalli.
On average, sure. But as I mentioned, it was the context each individual choice that matters (and of which I was referring to in picking sides): every choice and action on the battlefield helped one side and harmed the other, and doing so repeatedly simply proved to both sides he was an enemy to all sides (or, picking a side hostile to them). Why he does it is irrelevant to that he came and fired on them all.
Quote:
I didn't morally justified him either, at least in that particular point of mine you chose to quote and write this wall of text for.
Actually, you were: you were providing justifications to excuse him attacking others. You were pardoning and justifying what would normally be considered an immoral act, ie shooting people.


Quote:
I see. So how does that make him a hypocrite?
That point in particular wasn't about him being a hypocrite, and more as to how preventing a decisive blow will be seen as siding against one side or the other.


Quote:
What I remember was he stunned everyone with his sudden arrival and when gunfire started again, it was all against Kira.

Also remember that when he stopped Minerva's Tannhauser, Kira and Cagalli's motives were for the current war between EA/Orb and ZAFT to end. So, if there was no idiotic authority (Yuuna) at scene in command of Orb to deny Cagalli's identity, there will be no further casualties at all for either sides.
But there was an idiotic authority in command of Orb (who easily manipulated Cagelli until Kira kidnapped her, which doesn't speak well of Cagelli), so that's a case of 'and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.' But she doesn't, and so that really doesn't change the difference between what they said (stop fighting) and what they did (fight and make it even worse).

If you want to get real "what if", if Cagelli's father hadn't crisscrossed his own ideals and then let his country burn, Cagelli wouldn't have assumed a position she couldn't handle.
Quote:
But then again, following your point, how does accidentally forming casualties for ZAFT makes Kira a hypocrite? Did he planned for ZAFT's casualties from the start?
That doesn't, it is mostly tangent discussion. The part of the battles which made him a hypocrite was to demand everyone stop fighting after he launched a first strike.


Quote:
That doesn't make him a hypocrite. It only makes responsible for part of the casualties.
Again, part of the tangent discussion, which was building on the exact same thing you quoted above.
Quote:
So you're gonna put all the blame on Kira now? Fine with me, he's just an anime character that I like.
Oh, heavens no. They were going to die in the battle anyway. Kira gets blame for making the battle harder, but he's really only responsible for those deaths that wouldn't have occured otherwise. However many on the Minerva, and those who would have suriveved the Tanhauser cannon.

Alternatively, of course, he's also responsible for people who survived the battle but would have perished from the Tanhauser blast, but that's harder to quantify and I don't remember the post-battle well enough anyway.

Quote:

Still. Doesn't. Make. Him. A. Hypocrite.
Still part of the tangent that we got into. Ironically, this also sort of addresses what you were mentioning before: Kira didn't change the battle or derail it, so he actually isn't responsible for all the deaths.

Quote:

No, no silly. Defending himself, and Cagalli when everyone started to aim their fire at them. If Athrun, Shinn etc had just stood by the side to watch the show, Kira wouldn't even bother with them.
They did, the first time, and Yuna rejected Cagelli outright. After that, the war continues.

Besides, it was a perspective counterpoint to the argument that Kira should have been liked because he was protecting and defending: from the views of those involved, Kira wasn't protecting anyone and making the battle less intense. He was attacking all sides, including Orb.

Quote:
Why would I need to deny what he did?
If the actions that contradict belief positions occur, it's hypocrisy. That's what hypocrisy is. No matter how justified you think he is in doing so (and you've been having an entirely Orb-centric justifications, which only really works for Orb and no one else), it doesn't change it. The only way to disprove hypocrisy is to disprove the actions.


Quote:
Yeah, yeah. So where's the part where Kira is a hypocrite?
Expanding on tangent again, because I thought that part of your post (which was more about his actions than about the topic of hypocrisy) was a weak argument.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 07:29   Link #1208
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Ep 42. Cagalli says "try to negotiate a ceasefire with Zaft" AS SOON AS SHE TAKES COMMAND. We then cut to a Zaft commander saying "This annoying nation should just let us take it already" And outright refuse even after their target has already escaped until Talia takes over. Then of course in 48 Durandal is annoyed that Orb is refusing the Destiny Plan and his aides comment that if only Kira hasn't shown up and Orb had been more devastated during that battle they would have had no choice but to give in which suggests that Durandal had also ordered his personal troops to cause damage to Orb so it wouldn't be able to resist the DP. It isn't until Talia takes command (who isn't under Durandal's thumb) that Zaft withdraws, even though Djbril had already left.
And none of that has anything to do with the Destiny Plan, really. In fact, Orb doesn't even know that most of those went on, so they don't actually serve as justifications for Orb's actions in anything except a post-partem sense.

Of course Durandal is annoyed that Orb is refusing the Destiny Plan and is mobilizing; it's his dream. And iff Orb had been more devestated it would have capitulated. But that doesn't imply that Durandal ordered explicit infrastructure damage (nothing in the series or side material showed, mentioned, or implied it, making it entirely an outside insinuation created by you), and the fact that Durandal's most trusted officer takes command from the made-to-hate officer and pulls back from Orb after Djirbil's exit is pretty contrary to your argument that Durandal was out to conquer Orb using Djirbil as an excuse.

Quote:
Also at no point had Orb decided to attack Durandal prior Requiem being fired. They were prepared for it (as they didn't trust him) but at no point does anybody say "we will attack Durandal" before than.
They were already mobilizing to head into space. Durandal announces Destiny Plan, Orb and Lacus faction denounce it, and after only one other country rejects it they begin moving their forces into space. That's before the superweapons came public, and well before one was turned towards Orb.
Quote:
You are paying more attention to Astray and interviews than the actual show itself. The evidence is there. I've pointed it out several times but you keep ignoring it.
Actually, you haven't. You keep creating new unsupported accusations and iffy logic, and I'm not sure you even understand what the issue is. The issue, from the start, wasn't whether Durandal was going to force everyone he couldn't get to voluntarily to join to join.

It was whether the Destiny Plan would actually work, and if it was a dystopian police state for all time, ala 1984. The anime didn't say it wouldn't work. It didn't say it was miserable. Lacus argues that there not everyone would be content, and that it wasn't worth the trade of freedom. All the side material and interview said was that it does work, it isn't a miserable oppressive existence, and that the unsatisfied can leave. None of that contradicts the anime, where the reason for opposing the plan was just that it required the freedom tradeoff which Lacus and co. found unacceptable.


So, yeah. You keep pointing out that Durandal was going to use every means he could to convince and make everyone join. That's pretty much a one man argument. (Or woman, as the case may be.)
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 09:17   Link #1209
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
You didn't. I asked for what the contradictions are, and you merely just said if there are contradictions, it speaks badly of the supplementary work. That isn't a contradiction between the works, it's a policy for judgement if contradictions do arise.
The main contradiction is that the Destiny Plan was largely presented as an unworkable ideal in Destiny. The more important one in my mind though, is the one that I already brought up: if the Destiny Plan relied on Mars in some way, then Mars should have been mentioned. Again, the point was supposed to be that the Mars system was the inspiration for Durandal, and that it was somehow supposed to prove that it would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I'm not the writing cast, who were clearly struggling and weren't able to write the series as they intended. I'm not the Director, who's openly said that the series didn't go the way he wanted it to go. I'm not Bandai and those behind the franchise, who put out the Ashtray side stories. But I can think of a number of reasons why they would put something like that in a sidestory, ranging from that it didn't matter in that it wouldn't change the effect of the story (having disaffected witnesses say the Destiny Plan works really doesn't change Lacus's point and selfjustification for fighting) to they felt that the show badly presented it/audience misinterpreted what was presented and they felt that a sidestory manga was an acceptable place to put in their view.

It's fine to say that if it's important, it should have been included in a good writing. But Destiny isn't good writing, and whether the Destiny Plan is in anyway a workable technology/system isn't anymore important to the story than mecha or coordinators. Less so, actually, because what was important was that the Lacus faction wouldn't like the freedom tradeoff and Shinn (the protagonist) would lose everything but Luna. That the Destiny Plan is already successfully in place on Mars isn't important to the Destiny storyline (where Mars never even gets mentioned). But that doesn't mean that Mars and what the Destiny Plan is can be entirely ignored when the topic of discussion is the Destiny Plan.
But Mars is portrayed as being utterly irrelevant to Durandal's plans. If he didn't care about it, why should we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Since Destiny was undeniably mixed up in terms of theme once it started tossing aside the original protagonists and changing the roles of the Seed1 peeps, creating a supplementary material to give a more intended role makes sense on the part of the people who are behind the universe of Seed.
On the contrary. Destiny is one of the most consistent Gundam shows where it comes to the handling of theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
And in a subpar anime, that's just par for course because it isn't anything like the real world. Lacus and co never sat down to have a serious look and disection of the Plan either, simply passing on with "but it won't be happy/perfect." Lacus never even ever offered a plan or alternative or even told the world and her opponents what she was aiming for ever. She denounces Durandal's plan and then moves to overthrow him lickty split, and ends up ruling the PLANTS. If this were anything like the real world, that would be a sign of a power hungry politician running a military coup.
What? Did you miss the part where they were already at war with PLANT? That's like the U.S. making a detail study of the Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere before denouncing it as bunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
When a first strike is your idea for stopping fighting and dying, and then continuing to attack all sides and increasing the number of casualties is your idea of solving the problem, then yes. You are a hypocrite. A well meaning, naive hypocrite, but a hypocrite. Furthermore, shouting it out when the fighting has already escalated is even less productive.
Well, no. It wasn't a first strike, and the immediate goal wasn't to stop the fighting (why the heck do you keep bringing that up?); it was to destroy Durandal's military assets - REQUIEM in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Inciting a war by attacking a peaceful nation without provocation, use of mentally handicapped children as soldiers, controlling subordinates through drugs, hypnosis, and other conditioning methods.
These would be the responsibility of Mwu's superiors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Oh, and razing Berlin and other major European cities with the intent for massive civilian casualties. Can't forget that.
Why would this be any more of a war crime than the fire-bombing of Tokyo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
It was, like, his biggest scene of Destiny, which was more of a flashback to his character during Seed.
The point is that Rau was already dead, so he could hardly be considered a character in Destiny. Although, thinking back on it, Rau was also about as far from being an idealist as you can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Wrong. Supplementary material produced by the owners of the series should be accepted unless they are contradicted by the primary material. Even if one doesn't like the supplementary material, it is still made by the creators with the intention of telling another story and filling in more information of the universe. The people who own the franchise and have the supplementary material produced have a higher claim to the series than you.
When the people who own the franchise also declare that the only canonical events are the ones in the anime? Try pulling the other one .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I mean, she had an entire monologue on the matter at the final episodes of Seed. It's pretty clear she considers herself hypocritical. What most people don't realize is that hypocrisy isn't an end-all trait that invalidates everything. Lacus is hypocritical: so what? For her, it generally means she does what she thinks is best at any given situation, even if it compromises her stated ideals. If that works out for the best, it's actually a good thing, because the opposite end of hypocrisy is ideological lockstep. I just have the opinion that it doesn't work out for the best, and the naivite of her faction drives me up the walls and aggravates my opinion for it.
But Lacus isn't an idealist at all. The naivete of her faction is thus a bit of a questionable statement since they tend to act for rather different reasons.

Moreover, there really isn't much hipocrisy in fighting for a better peace - that's pretty much the fundamental principle behind military philosophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Again, part of the tangent discussion, which was building on the exact same thing you quoted above.
Oh, heavens no. They were going to die in the battle anyway. Kira gets blame for making the battle harder, but he's really only responsible for those deaths that wouldn't have occured otherwise. However many on the Minerva, and those who would have suriveved the Tanhauser cannon.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kira wasn't fully justified in taking out Minerva's gun. It was his fellow countrymen that it was pointed at after all.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 11:02   Link #1210
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The main contradiction is that the Destiny Plan was largely presented as an unworkable ideal in Destiny. The more important one in my mind though, is the one that I already brought up: if the Destiny Plan relied on Mars in some way, then Mars should have been mentioned. Again, the point was supposed to be that the Mars system was the inspiration for Durandal, and that it was somehow supposed to prove that it would work.
No it wasn't. The Destiny Plan was presented as a morally bad idea, not an unworkable one.

Durandal's Destiny Plan doesn't depend on Mars in any way, and I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it did. Mars is relevant to this discussion because it serves as proof that the Destiny Plan does work at what it sets out to do.
Quote:
But Mars is portrayed as being utterly irrelevant to Durandal's plans. If he didn't care about it, why should we?
Because we've been arguing about whether the Plan even works, and Mars proves that id does.

Quote:
On the contrary. Destiny is one of the most consistent Gundam shows where it comes to the handling of theme.
Personal opinion, one which I really don't see how you could argue. When the main protagonist is upsurped and goes from hero imagry and music to villainy for no addressed reason, and originally minor characters from the first season upsurp the plot and steal the title of protagonist, you have serious thematic issues.

Quote:
What? Did you miss the part where they were already at war with PLANT? That's like the U.S. making a detail study of the Greater East Co-Prosperity Sphere before denouncing it as bunk.
... you're actually making an analogy implying that Lacus and co really had no intention of seriously looking at the Destiny Plan since they were already carrying on the war with Durandal?

Well, yes, that is what I've been saying for awhile...

Quote:
Well, no. It wasn't a first strike,
It was the first shot in the battle without warning. That's a first strike.
Quote:
and the immediate goal wasn't to stop the fighting (why the heck do you keep bringing that up?); it was to destroy Durandal's military assets - REQUIEM in this case.
The Battle of the Indian Ocean had the Requiem?

Kira intervened to try and stop the fighting by means of having Cagelli get Orb to pull out, which would also leave the EA fleet in the lurch. He was trying to stop the battle so Orb forces wouldn't fight.
Quote:
These would be the responsibility of Mwu's superiors.
Not only is that bull crap, Mwu was the superior. He was in charge of the operations, the kids, and he fought in them himself.

No idea where you get the idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions.
Quote:
Why would this be any more of a war crime than the fire-bombing of Tokyo?
Who in the world said that fire-bombing Tokyo wouldn't be considered a war crime now?

Quote:
The point is that Rau was already dead, so he could hardly be considered a character in Destiny. Although, thinking back on it, Rau was also about as far from being an idealist as you can get.
I didn't call him a character in Destiny. I pointed out that Destiny said that Rau had conflicting beliefs and actions.

Quote:
When the people who own the franchise also declare that the only canonical events are the ones in the anime? Try pulling the other one .
Actually, the retcons in the post-series special editions and movies take presidence.

Side material isn't as strong as the anime, but it holds true as well. The only time side material is invalidated is when it is opposed by cannon, which isn't the case here. Side material is used by the franchise owners to flesh out the story settings, tell other tales that couldn't be included in the anime, and give technical/mecha information. These are understood to be true unless corrected later. If it didn't, then there would be no reason for side material in the first place, because it would be as acceptable as fanfics. But it isn't.

So, pulling 'common marketing sense' I guess?


Quote:
But Lacus isn't an idealist at all. The naivete of her faction is thus a bit of a questionable statement since they tend to act for rather different reasons.
Yes, she is. She's also a politician who will compromise them to achieve them, but she's consistently followed her personal beliefs and ideals of what's best throughout the series.
Quote:
Moreover, there really isn't much hipocrisy in fighting for a better peace - that's pretty much the fundamental principle behind military philosophy.
Congratulations: you just learned that lots of military philosophy is weak and only as strong as you want to believe it to.

Quote:
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Kira wasn't fully justified in taking out Minerva's gun. It was his fellow countrymen that it was pointed at after all.
First, he isn't a soldier anymore; civilians aren't allowed to go out and hunt down enemy forces. Second, it's not that I don't think it can't be justified, I just recognize it as being a justification, which are innately biased for one side or position or another. Third, by arguing that he's defending his countrymen in a war, you're validating ZAFT's position of treating the ArchAngel like an enemy, which most people don't seem to accept as anything but villainy on ZAFT's part.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 11:33   Link #1211
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
'People should not fight to achieve their goals.' 'I will fight to achieve my goals.' Both are concepts she's espoused and recognized. You don't see the contradiction?
Yes, I see the contradiction; therefore could you point out the source of when she stated that? Or perhaps someone could clarify this contradiction? Because I seriously do not remember Lacus saying any of that, especially the latter.

Quote:
I mean, she had an entire monologue on the matter at the final episodes of Seed. It's pretty clear she considers herself hypocritical. What most people don't realize is that hypocrisy isn't an end-all trait that invalidates everything. Lacus is hypocritical: so what? For her, it generally means she does what she thinks is best at any given situation, even if it compromises her stated ideals. If that works out for the best, it's actually a good thing, because the opposite end of hypocrisy is ideological lockstep. I just have the opinion that it doesn't work out for the best, and the naivite of her faction drives me up the walls and aggravates my opinion for it.
Of course it wouldn't matter if Lacus is indeed portrayed to be hypocritical. But the fact is, she is not, especially with your this opinion of her: "it generally means she does what she thinks is best at any given situation, even if it compromises her stated ideals."

A person who acts according to her thoughts, and not according to her previously stated ideals is not equivalent to a hypocritical person. Using your explanation and applying it to Lacus, she is merely acting out her "changing-over-time" beliefs. This does not, whatsoever, says that she is hypocritical. Perhaps she goes back on her words, but she does not pretend.

Quote:
On average, sure. But as I mentioned, it was the context each individual choice that matters (and of which I was referring to in picking sides): every choice and action on the battlefield helped one side and harmed the other, and doing so repeatedly simply proved to both sides he was an enemy to all sides (or, picking a side hostile to them). Why he does it is irrelevant to that he came and fired on them all.
How is it irrelevant?
He wishes to stop that particular current war. He wanted to reduce EA/Orb's casualties because he believed that it would stop with his intervention. Therefore, how is he hypocritical?

Quote:
Actually, you were: you were providing justifications to excuse him attacking others. You were pardoning and justifying what would normally be considered an immoral act, ie shooting people.
How is shooting people an immoral act in war?

I merely provided the point, that if no one from ZAFT actually bothered to attack Kira, they would not suffer casualties (Saviour wouldn't be destroyed too. Silly Athrun.), because Kira was only focused on protecting Cagalli.

Quote:
That point in particular wasn't about him being a hypocrite, and more as to how preventing a decisive blow will be seen as siding against one side or the other.
The point in particular is, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by previously posted
When a first strike is your idea for stopping fighting and dying, and then continuing to attack all sides and increasing the number of casualties is your idea of solving the problem, then yes. You are a hypocrite. A well meaning, naive hypocrite, but a hypocrite. Furthermore, shouting it out when the fighting has already escalated is even less productive.
Quote:
But there was an idiotic authority in command of Orb (who easily manipulated Cagelli until Kira kidnapped her, which doesn't speak well of Cagelli), so that's a case of 'and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.' But she doesn't, and so that really doesn't change the difference between what they said (stop fighting) and what they did (fight and make it even worse).

If you want to get real "what if", if Cagelli's father hadn't crisscrossed his own ideals and then let his country burn, Cagelli wouldn't have assumed a position she couldn't handle.
WTF are you talking about?

Quote:
That doesn't, it is mostly tangent discussion. The part of the battles which made him a hypocrite was to demand everyone stop fighting after he launched a first strike.

Again, part of the tangent discussion, which was building on the exact same thing you quoted above.
How else, to get their fucking attention, and to stop the "decisive blow" because he was, actually still on EA/Orb's side at that particular moment (until Cagalli realized she had no more influence)?

Quote:
Oh, heavens no. They were going to die in the battle anyway. Kira gets blame for making the battle harder, but he's really only responsible for those deaths that wouldn't have occured otherwise. However many on the Minerva, and those who would have suriveved the Tanhauser cannon.
Making the battle harder?

Spoiler for uh huh:


Quote:
Alternatively, of course, he's also responsible for people who survived the battle but would have perished from the Tanhauser blast, but that's harder to quantify and I don't remember the post-battle well enough anyway.
Yeah, you're putting the blame on him. Affirmative.

Quote:
Still part of the tangent that we got into. Ironically, this also sort of addresses what you were mentioning before: Kira didn't change the battle or derail it, so he actually isn't responsible for all the deaths.
Strange. I thought you were the one who said that Kira didn't change the battle.

Quote:
They did, the first time, and Yuna rejected Cagelli outright. After that, the war continues.
And that matters?

Quote:
Besides, it was a perspective counterpoint to the argument that Kira should have been liked because he was protecting and defending: from the views of those involved, Kira wasn't protecting anyone and making the battle less intense. He was attacking all sides, including Orb.
So Cagalli isn't a person. I see.

Quote:
If the actions that contradict belief positions occur, it's hypocrisy. That's what hypocrisy is. No matter how justified you think he is in doing so (and you've been having an entirely Orb-centric justifications, which only really works for Orb and no one else), it doesn't change it. The only way to disprove hypocrisy is to disprove the actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by previously stated
Again, you're simply justifying the action, not even denying them. From Kira's perspective, it certainly was the right action. I can commend him for sticking to his beliefs.
According to you, he sticked with his beliefs.
So how does that make him a hypocrite?

Quote:
Expanding on tangent again, because I thought that part of your post (which was more about his actions than about the topic of hypocrisy) was a weak argument.
But it is his actions that renders you to think that he is a hypocrite, no?
Therefore how is that weak?
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 12:27   Link #1212
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
My whole arguement is that Durandal isn't an all holy saint, and that Kira and Lacus aren't evil demons that have doomed C.E. forever like certain people keep portraying them to be. That's really all I'm trying to prove, is that Durandal did immoral things to try to get everyone to use his plan.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 13:09   Link #1213
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
No it wasn't. The Destiny Plan was presented as a morally bad idea, not an unworkable one.
It's both; but the morality of it was the more pertinent point. Thematically, it is presented as unworkable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Durandal's Destiny Plan doesn't depend on Mars in any way, and I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it did. Mars is relevant to this discussion because it serves as proof that the Destiny Plan does work at what it sets out to do.
If the Destiny Plan has nothing to do with Mars, then how the heck is Mars supposed to be relevant to it? And then there's the sheer aesthetic inanity of blaming a show for the poor handling of a story point that's not even in the show that's in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Personal opinion, one which I really don't see how you could argue. When the main protagonist is upsurped and goes from hero imagry and music to villainy for no addressed reason, and originally minor characters from the first season upsurp the plot and steal the title of protagonist, you have serious thematic issues.
That's because the main themes stayed the same regardless of who you think the protagonist is. The most important of which was that being well-meaning is not enough; it's necessary to couple that with actions that would actually further that well-meaning cause. The point of Shinn's character was to show just how a character who wanted the best in the world could end up sabotaging his own beliefs. While you might think that this is just my personal opinion, it's also one that's ridiculously easy to argue for because it's well-supported by the show itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
... you're actually making an analogy implying that Lacus and co really had no intention of seriously looking at the Destiny Plan since they were already carrying on the war with Durandal?

Well, yes, that is what I've been saying for awhile...
Actually, you'd be wrong if that what you've been saying. Lacus was interested in the details of the Destiny Plan - we can see the efforts she went to to try to piece it together. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that she felt it necessary to refute it point-by-point. This is even more obvious given that Durandal never laid out the details of his plan in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
It was the first shot in the battle without warning. That's a first strike.

The Battle of the Indian Ocean had the Requiem?

Kira intervened to try and stop the fighting by means of having Cagelli get Orb to pull out, which would also leave the EA fleet in the lurch. He was trying to stop the battle so Orb forces wouldn't fight.
Why are you talking about that battle when I'm obviously speaking of the final one? I addressed the Indian Ocean one further down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Not only is that bull crap, Mwu was the superior. He was in charge of the operations, the kids, and he fought in them himself.

No idea where you get the idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions.
Let's list the offenses:

Inciting a war by attacking a peaceful nation without provocation
This is the responsibility of the ones giving the orders - most likely Djibril.

use of mentally handicapped children as soldiers
Responsibility of the ones who brought up the children. Note that the Extended don't really qualify as child soldiers by the time Mwu leads them.

controlling subordinates through drugs, hypnosis, and other conditioning methods
I'm unaware of this being a war crime; especially since indoctrination would also be considered a conditioning method, and all militaries use it.

Do you have any other crimes to bring to the table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Who in the world said that fire-bombing Tokyo wouldn't be considered a war crime now?
Everyone who knows anything about war crimes would come to that conclusion. Attacking military infrastructure has always been a legal military action, even if that infrastructure happnes to be within a city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Actually, the retcons in the post-series special editions and movies take presidence.
And since they are animated material, that sort of proves my point, doesn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Yes, she is. She's also a politician who will compromise them to achieve them, but she's consistently followed her personal beliefs and ideals of what's best throughout the series.
Uh, that's not what an idealist is. You might want to try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
Congratulations: you just learned that lots of military philosophy is weak and only as strong as you want to believe it to.
I'm not sure where you get that idea from. On a fundamental level, military philosophy works quite nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man
First, he isn't a soldier anymore; civilians aren't allowed to go out and hunt down enemy forces. Second, it's not that I don't think it can't be justified, I just recognize it as being a justification, which are innately biased for one side or position or another. Third, by arguing that he's defending his countrymen in a war, you're validating ZAFT's position of treating the ArchAngel like an enemy, which most people don't seem to accept as anything but villainy on ZAFT's part.
Kira was effectively given a breveted command. He was onboard the vessel of the Orb government-in-exile, he donned an Orb uniform, and he represented the interests of the titular leader of Orb. As such, he would have a duty to protect the citizens and soldiers of Orb. While the Orb government-in-exile wasn't necessarily at war with PLANT yet, the equation is very simple: Orb personnel were under threat, and so it was the responsibility to go and rescue them. Moreover, it's a decent ploy to earn their loyalty as well. Note that this equation of responsibility changed after the troops rejected Cagalli to support the usurpers.

Don't lump me in with what someone else might claim. I would certainly maintain that Orb and PLANT were at war, and that the military conflict between the two are mostly justifiable. I'd even separate Cagalli's (and the rest of Archangel's) position in the matter from that of Lacus. As far as Lacus was concerned, she had been at war with Durandal ever since the assassination attempt on her. If it were up to her, I doubt that they would have been at Berlin.
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 22:34   Link #1214
Kirbyeggs
Even in Death I Serve
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beyond the Time
Age: 20
even if he was a civilian he had Freedom in his hands >.>
I don't think he counts as a normal civilian, but then again, No one really knew that Kira was in Freedom except for a small number of people.
So since he does have a powerful weapon in his basement, he would probably be a classified as a terrorist, even if he did do good things in the first war.

Besides this IS anime not everything is going to be realistic
__________________
Kirbyeggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 23:04   Link #1215
4Tran
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbyeggs View Post
even if he was a civilian he had Freedom in his hands >.>
I don't think he counts as a normal civilian, but then again, No one really knew that Kira was in Freedom except for a small number of people.
Whether Kira was a civilian is almost utterly irrelevant. First off, there's nothing that says that a civilian can't take part in an armed conflict; and second, the presence of Cagalli automatically gives Kira a brevet rank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbyeggs View Post
So since he does have a powerful weapon in his basement, he would probably be a classified as a terrorist, even if he did do good things in the first war.
Nope. The weapon was entrusted to him by a lawful government; that would make Kira a government-sanctioned weapon wielder .
__________________
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...
4Tran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-13, 23:12   Link #1216
yezhanquan
Observer/Bookman wannabe
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 29
Well, according to the peace treaty after Jachin Due, all nuclear-powered suits are supposed to be gone. With such a violation, I guess you can say that he's a government-sanctioned terrorist.
__________________
Those from the lower levels cannot hope to surpass those from the upper.

RIP, Oba-chan (1935-2008)
yezhanquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-14, 01:17   Link #1217
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, according to the peace treaty after Jachin Due, all nuclear-powered suits are supposed to be gone. With such a violation, I guess you can say that he's a government-sanctioned terrorist.
Kira is not bounded by that treaty. He is an Orb citizen.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 01:04   Link #1218
yezhanquan
Observer/Bookman wannabe
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Kira is not bounded by that treaty. He is an Orb citizen.
Well, I'm not sure if Orb signed the treaty, but given the rampage through its land, it would be pretty hard to convince me that Orb wasn't there when PLANT and the EA signed the treaty.
__________________
Those from the lower levels cannot hope to surpass those from the upper.

RIP, Oba-chan (1935-2008)
yezhanquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 02:10   Link #1219
ac195
Koh nara dekiru!!!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: August 17th - 31st
Did Gundam Seed Destiny fail... hmm... gonna need to take a look at The Rules...

Spoiler:
ac195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 02:23   Link #1220
Neku
yare yare..
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, I'm not sure if Orb signed the treaty, but given the rampage through its land, it would be pretty hard to convince me that Orb wasn't there when PLANT and the EA signed the treaty.
Just because Orb is there does not mean that they are bounded by the treaty.
__________________
Reborn!
(with nosebleed)
Neku is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.