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Old 2009-06-02, 20:38   Link #2101
Drethillsh
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It's magic.

If you stick to reality, the genes for the Saint's Armor would almost certainly have been lost or so scrambled as to be useless after just a few generations, unless either every single Belkan had it or the Sankt Kaisers were literally a separate species. But, the Saint's Armor is still around. So for the Kaisers, at least, gengineering does work that way.

And these things wouldn't be old if they weren't fun to use.
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Old 2009-06-02, 21:25   Link #2102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drethillsh View Post
It's magic.
Not good Enough.


Besides. Vivio (Our little Sainkt Kaiser) was a grown life-form with the engineering done when and where it was supposed to be done.

All of the living Combat Cyborgs were done that way as well.
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Old 2009-06-02, 21:50   Link #2103
Drethillsh
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Not good Enough.


Besides. Vivio (Our little Sainkt Kaiser) was a grown life-form with the engineering done when and where it was supposed to be done.

All of the living Combat Cyborgs were done that way as well.
Is it really so hard to imagine that there was a genetic stability spell?

I do understand what you're saying, and if it bothers you so much, only one of my theories nessessitated gengineering on adult bodies, and I specificly noted that it was dangerous and illegal. Besides, even Vivio's existence ignores the degradation that DNA would undergo over thousands of years... unless it was protected by magic. With very rare exceptions, I'm content to forgive even the most ridiculous bungling of science as long as it's used to make a good story.

Besides, we've already seen that they have the ability to bring people back from the dead; maybe they just keep resurrecting the poor sods until they get it to work right.

Also: This is an alternate universe we're talking about here. There's no reason to assume that the chemical reactions that induce life are the same for Belkans as they are for Terrans; their genes may very well work this way. They may not even have genes as we understand them, and all refrences to their "genes" may simply have been translated into a workable, though imperfect, analogy for the benefit of the viewers.

Last edited by Drethillsh; 2009-06-02 at 22:16.
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Old 2009-06-02, 23:03   Link #2104
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Except it DOESN'T make a good story. It's one of the worst copouts in Sci-Fi, right behind, as I mentioned it, NANITES. It's an overused plot device that doesn't even get used correctly half the time.

People seem to look at Genetic Engineering and instantly think: Super Upgrade Timuu!
It Doesn't Work That Way.(TM)

I can see genetic manipulation for improvements of the Next Generation. That's fine. I can see long term carefully crafted Genetic Super Soldierizing that worked its way to the point Vivio came along. That's fine too. The excuse for her was that it was essentially a Pedigree specimen. She's already at the tip of the spear of years of careful craftsmanship.

But slapping some genetic engineering into just any sample and getting a supersoldier, or real-time alterations from genetic engineering in an adult? I don't care how much you claim 'magic', I call bullshit.

See, the primary issue with a geneticly engineered specimen is multiple in nature.

To start off, you need to start with a decent specimen. You're not going to get very far with the genetic details of a downs syndrome child with athsma and a family history of heart disease at an early age.

The second, is that you can't change the starting specimen, you have to grow a new one.
Cloning gets you there.
But you have to grow that clone to adulthood to see the results of your genetic tampering.
Even accellerated, that's a long and resource intensive cycle.

It's like getting sports car, and tuning it for drag races. Only each time you tweak a component, you have to build a completely new car.

And this is before you even take into account the mental developement of this Geneticly Engineered clone. Magic or no magic, the correct growth cycle for the human brain's developement is not something you can put on fast forward and expect stable developement on emotional levels. Vivio proves this well enough by how easily she's lead on by Quattro's manipulations.

What kind of fire are you going to play with rushing through a cloning and genetic engineering cycle and trying to push the mind through its own growth cycle trying to tweak each generation?

It's a SLOW process, even when you're rushing and cutting corners to the point it's stupidly dangerous.

It's an absolute sloth's pace spanning multiple generations if you're doing it right. And I think Vivio about does that example right... but trying to apply that to someone else, faster, is a copout. (Assuming it works perfectly with no side effects.) It's utterly retarded if you try and actively change an adult via genetic manipulation.
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Old 2009-06-03, 00:30   Link #2105
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Not good Enough.
If it was YOUR pet idea, it would be

First, regarding the possibility of changing the genetic structure after Full Growth with the assistance of magic. Actually YES, in Nanoverse, because of shapeshifting. Whatever its specifics, it clearly shows that Midchildran science (which would include magic) has clearly resolved the problems of suddenly changing form on a much larger and more extensive scale than any likely manipulation that would leave them looking human, while apparently leaving the "mind" intact.

Here's how you might do it (conceptually). Shapeshift into the new form to act as a "frame". If you believe shapeshifting is mostly molecular manipulation your job is close to completion - the cells might even have "shapeshifted" into forms with the new code, in which case your job is done already - new form and new genes are implemented in one step.

If you believe shapeshifting mostly uses pseudomatter, you have to work a bit but still you have a frame. Now, make the genetic change to certain "base/stem cell(s)". Basically, the cells reproduced from the stem cells are guided by the pseudomatter "frame" (since even with the same genetic pattern, there is still variation in the final form), eventually supplanting them to form the new body. Use a variant of healing magic (which is probably best explained as a technique to highly accelerate cell reproduction to "plug the leaks") to accelerate this evolution.

If anything if you DON'T do this after shapeshifting, it is the old genetic code that's the anamoly not in line with the new form. At best it'll keep reproducing old version cells, making your body trend towards its old form. Changing the genetic code actually normalizes the situation.
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Old 2009-06-03, 15:45   Link #2106
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Except it DOESN'T make a good story. It's one of the worst copouts in Sci-Fi, right behind, as I mentioned it, NANITES. It's an overused plot device that doesn't even get used correctly half the time.

People seem to look at Genetic Engineering and instantly think: Super Upgrade Timuu!
It Doesn't Work That Way.(TM)

I can see genetic manipulation for improvements of the Next Generation. That's fine. I can see long term carefully crafted Genetic Super Soldierizing that worked its way to the point Vivio came along. That's fine too. The excuse for her was that it was essentially a Pedigree specimen. She's already at the tip of the spear of years of careful craftsmanship.

But slapping some genetic engineering into just any sample and getting a supersoldier, or real-time alterations from genetic engineering in an adult? I don't care how much you claim 'magic', I call bullshit.

See, the primary issue with a geneticly engineered specimen is multiple in nature.

To start off, you need to start with a decent specimen. You're not going to get very far with the genetic details of a downs syndrome child with athsma and a family history of heart disease at an early age.

The second, is that you can't change the starting specimen, you have to grow a new one.
Cloning gets you there.
But you have to grow that clone to adulthood to see the results of your genetic tampering.
Even accellerated, that's a long and resource intensive cycle.

It's like getting sports car, and tuning it for drag races. Only each time you tweak a component, you have to build a completely new car.

And this is before you even take into account the mental developement of this Geneticly Engineered clone. Magic or no magic, the correct growth cycle for the human brain's developement is not something you can put on fast forward and expect stable developement on emotional levels. Vivio proves this well enough by how easily she's lead on by Quattro's manipulations.

What kind of fire are you going to play with rushing through a cloning and genetic engineering cycle and trying to push the mind through its own growth cycle trying to tweak each generation?

It's a SLOW process, even when you're rushing and cutting corners to the point it's stupidly dangerous.

It's an absolute sloth's pace spanning multiple generations if you're doing it right. And I think Vivio about does that example right... but trying to apply that to someone else, faster, is a copout. (Assuming it works perfectly with no side effects.) It's utterly retarded if you try and actively change an adult via genetic manipulation.
Okay then, sufficiently advanced technology.

First: At least for me, it's not the presence or absence of a plot device that makes a cliche, but the execution. Take the "you are the reincarnation/descendent of [insert god or godlike person here] and have his powers" revelation (I can hear you groaning from here). I would point you to the Bazil Broketail series of fantasy novels, in which it is revealed a little after halfway through that main character Relkin is a Sinni (demigod) in human form, giving him the potential to learn powerful spells (whereas most humans can't learn past a certain point). Cliche so far, right? But... he's a horrible student. After months of constant training, he still can't cast even basic spells taught to acolytes a third of his age in weeks. On the rare ocasions that he uses magic during battle, it's unreliable- which doesn't mean "uber-spell at one second before death", it means "um, okay... focus mind... visualize effect... okay... um... remember the words... uh... [distracted by screams of battle] SHIT! Okay, uh, focus mind..." It only affects the story substantially twice: once to explain why certain nonhumans treat him with respect, and once so that he can be given a more powerful construct body in a separate dimension (that he never returns to). The plot device sounds cliche, but isn't.

Second: Again, only one of my theories (the illegal surgery one) didn't involve generations of work. And (also again), that assumes that Belkan genetics work exactly the same way as Terran- which is, biologicaly, ridiculous. Life that arose on a different dimension has no reason to follow the same laws as ours. Additionally, the Belkans could gengineer a resistance to magical attacks successfully. I don't think we've even found that gene. It's a safe assumption that Belkan gengineering is so far advanced from Terran that they don't have the same restrictions that we do.

Third: It is possible to speed the process up by directly altering the sperm and/or egg cells. It wouldn't pass down through many generations before simply fading out, but if you need an army of supersoldiers for a war, you want them fighting, not ****ing. In fact, with a sped-up growth, they could be done in weeks, and the mental problems won't much affect their ability to shoot and punch whoever they're fighting. (As a side note, I think Vivio was easily affected because she was five and in far too much pain to think clearly.)

Fourth: If every cell is altered to produce cells different from itself (not impossible, as viruses prove), anyone altered in this way would eventually have entirely different DNA and thus abilities. This is completely impossible to us, but the Belkans might be able to get every cell to synch properly, essentially building a different body as each cell replicates.

Fifth: The vast majority of those ideas were just random thoughts that popped into my head while I was typing. You're taking them too seriously.

Sixth: We've probably long left the extent to which the creators are thinking about this. It's a fun debate, but arguments on either side at this point are far beyond affecting the thought process of the writing staff (unless one of them majored in genetics or biology, which, while not impossible, is an unlikely background for someone who makes anime).
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Old 2009-06-04, 01:47   Link #2107
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They are much more likely to have read a bunch of random books, watch a bunch of sci fi anime, maybe read a trope site to back up the tropes they found and ran with it.
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Old 2009-06-04, 05:52   Link #2108
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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
What we know about her learning skill? It's most likely genetic too...
It's a common misconception that the learning capability of a human is the sole product of perfect genetic combination. After all, we've had doctors marrying lawyers or engineers with scientists and still produce children with not-very-high intelligence and some downright abnormal.

If anything, a perfectly normal human (without abnormalities to brain functions) has similar or the same learning capability as any other. The boost to their learning capacity that makes them better than most adequate learners typically comes from their own hardwork and socializations.

Vivio's higher learning rate could probably be attributed to the abnormal maturity of her bodily functions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Not good Enough.
Actually, I thought we've already gone through a similar debate back in the original thread in that the anime producers tromp on conventional scientific methods and use just what is suitable to prod the story along.

We've debated on the usability of the "small" blood sample available on the Shroud of the Saint King aged 300 years old with no explicable (or visually available) long-enduring preservation method to clone Vivio, and since we didn't come to a conclusion about how that was possible with conventional methods, we decided to let it go.

Whilst it goes against the more scientifically-inclined, most of us are able to hold a higher degree of suspension of disbelief, so there's that.
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Old 2009-06-04, 07:29   Link #2109
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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Vivio's higher learning rate could probably be attributed to the abnormal maturity of her bodily functions.
That's not exactly the learning skill we're refering to. Vivio has a special skill that allows her to copy skills simply by being near the person.
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Old 2009-06-04, 08:15   Link #2110
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There was a scene in the manga where Vivio was innocently perusing videos of both Nanoha and Fate in action. I'm more inclined towards the "she can learn by observation" rather than simply..being in the proximity of a person.
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Old 2009-06-04, 09:00   Link #2111
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Copying skills is one thing. What really matters is can she actually use them without additional support like the Relic or the Cradle? Because if she can't, it doesn't matter.
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Old 2009-06-04, 10:10   Link #2112
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x_x ack information here I do not have, she copies skills? What scene is that?
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Old 2009-06-04, 10:48   Link #2113
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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
It's a common misconception that the learning capability of a human is the sole product of perfect genetic combination. After all, we've had doctors marrying lawyers or engineers with scientists and still produce children with not-very-high intelligence and some downright abnormal.

If anything, a perfectly normal human (without abnormalities to brain functions) has similar or the same learning capability as any other. The boost to their learning capacity that makes them better than most adequate learners typically comes from their own hardwork and socializations.

Vivio's higher learning rate could probably be attributed to the abnormal maturity of her bodily functions.
There's also the question of whether the person wants to learn or has the opportunity to do so; to give an example I had one member of my staff who was very bright but lagged behind the rest of my team due to not wanting to learn. Another girl on my team has since blossomed with the resignations of the 2 sempai simply because with them out of the way she can really come into her own (and not be stomped down by the shadows of the sempai).

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That's not exactly the learning skill we're refering to. Vivio has a special skill that allows her to copy skills simply by being near the person.
Which is something that exist in current humans. It's called, learning by watching somebody do something.
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Copying skills is one thing. What really matters is can she actually use them without additional support like the Relic or the Cradle? Because if she can't, it doesn't matter.
Spells essentially programs. If you don't have the sufficient supporting elements, you can't run them. You can copy Mac OS programs onto Windows and vice-versa.
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Old 2009-06-04, 11:44   Link #2114
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That's not exactly the learning skill we're refering to. Vivio has a special skill that allows her to copy skills simply by being near the person.
Ah, yes, I've forgotten about that. That in itself may be a rarity introduced by her genome. Yet, like Jimmy pointed out, can she also use those copied skills without some of the prerequisites? For instance, can she use lightning-based attack without the mana affinity conversion ability present in Fate or Erio?

That said, "skills" in itself is subjective. Is reading a skill, and if it is, did she copy this? Talking, too, can be considered a skill, and did Vivio learn how to talk, or did she copy it?

The whole thing seems to revolve around the usual socialization process versus immediate acquisition of certain elements, which I'm sure the producers have not deigned to shed too much light on, as usual. =3
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Old 2009-06-04, 12:03   Link #2115
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There was a scene in the manga where Vivio was innocently perusing videos of both Nanoha and Fate in action. I'm more inclined towards the "she can learn by observation" rather than simply..being in the proximity of a person.
Correction, she was viewing a few of Nanoha's training manuals. While that excuses Nanoha's moves, she has never seen Fate in action, so the only way she could have copied moves from Fate would be that it copies from her directly. Perhaps a-la Yami no Sho.

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Copying skills is one thing. What really matters is can she actually use them without additional support like the Relic or the Cradle? Because if she can't, it doesn't matter.
Doubtful. Otherwise she would have gotten Kris a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Ah, yes, I've forgotten about that. That in itself may be a rarity introduced by her genome. Yet, like Jimmy pointed out, can she also use those copied skills without some of the prerequisites? For instance, can she use lightning-based attack without the mana affinity conversion ability present in Fate or Erio?
Considering she 'converted' Fate's copied abilities into purely magical ones rather than using lightning, I'd say no.

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That said, "skills" in itself is subjective. Is reading a skill, and if it is, did she copy this? Talking, too, can be considered a skill, and did Vivio learn how to talk, or did she copy it?
Magical skills, of course. This was highlighted in the anime as well, with Vivio saying it was the gathering of magical data. Talking was attributed to her having memories of her past life as part of Project F. So it was technically something learned the usual way, albeit in a past life.
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Old 2009-06-05, 04:53   Link #2116
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Correction, she was viewing a few of Nanoha's training manuals. While that excuses Nanoha's moves, she has never seen Fate in action, so the only way she could have copied moves from Fate would be that it copies from her directly. Perhaps a-la Yami no Sho.
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Considering she 'converted' Fate's copied abilities into purely magical ones rather than using lightning, I'd say no.
My memories of what transpired in StrikerS aren't as complete as when the series was still ongoing, but I never recalled Vivio having used any of Fate's skills at all. The last few scenes were a frantic speed-up leading to Nanoha's eventual mad bombardment, and I may have missed some.

To be honest, I only remembered Vivio launching energy balls at Nanoha-mama. And those have a different name (Sacred Cluster, wasn't it?). <.<
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Old 2009-06-05, 05:00   Link #2117
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My memories of what transpired in StrikerS aren't as complete as when the series was still ongoing, but I never recalled Vivio having used any of Fate's skills at all. The last few scenes were a frantic speed-up leading to Nanoha's eventual mad bombardment, and I may have missed some.

To be honest, I only remembered Vivio launching energy balls at Nanoha-mama. And those have a different name (Sacred Cluster, wasn't it?). <.<
The energized punching attacks Vivio used to break through Nanoha's barrier in three or four hits was a move that she learned from Fate.
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Old 2009-06-05, 06:21   Link #2118
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It was only revealed in the DVD booklets that some of Vivio's spells came from copying from Nanoha and Fate so no way anyone could have known just by watching the anime alone.
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Old 2009-06-05, 13:14   Link #2119
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The energized punching attacks Vivio used to break through Nanoha's barrier in three or four hits was a move that she learned from Fate.
Ah, now I remember (if vaguely). I'd suppose the Fate-equivalent is probably the offensive form of Thunder Arm.
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Old 2009-07-14, 01:41   Link #2120
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Hello guys. I recently came up a new nanoha fic idea, but there's one thing that I'd like some help with as I'm not too keen on certain details.

Specifically, the weapon that athura used in A's - I forgot what it was called, but I recall it having a destructive range of some hundred kilometers or something. Can someone provide me more details on that weapon, as well as what kind of effects/impact it would have if fired upon the surface of Earth. I'm thinking that it might be akin to a nuke but I'm not too knowledgeable though.

Much appreciated for input, thanks.
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