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Old 2009-07-14, 19:52   Link #141
Takamura Mamoru
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If the world were to move according to Haruhi's desires, why are there relationships between Kyon and X that make her jealous?
While I do believe that her powers activate when she really wants something, I don't think they influence the world all the time.

Another problem is if Haruhi gets killed before even being able to react to it.

As Koizumi said, maybe the world will end or maybe it will just go on without a change.
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Old 2009-07-14, 19:56   Link #142
Kaisos Erranon
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I'm sure her subconscious has set up some kind of contingency so that she revives when she dies.
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Old 2009-07-14, 19:57   Link #143
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Well, I suppose it depends on perspective. It is true that Haruhi really doesn't seem to always get what she would like, perhaps due to internal doubts and whatnot, form an observer's perspective, a ridiculous amount of power has already been concentrated in Haruhi's hands, and anything that she really wish it to be is to, at least based on how observer would see this within the Haruhi settings.

Planning for a scenario where the world ends is rather foolhardy, so the obvious assumption would be that Haruhi would've left permenant marks on the universe that people after have have to contend with, one way or the other.

The question then becomes... would it then be advisible to have the successor rule by dictat and consolidate that kind of ability, while being even more inept than Haruhi, or that it should be up to every stakeholder within the universe to cope with that scene, as they struggle and bicker amongst themselves based sorely of their unique interests?

If Haruhi would just rise as Jesus did, then the situation would be fine, since Haruhi is still Haruhi and thus 'predictable' in this sense. Unfortunately though, either some will wait for Haruhi's natural demise or the radical in the Curia will do away Haruhi as Brutus did Caesar, if they see Haruhi having such consolidated power as too dangerous for the general good of the universe.

(Now, the prospect of Octavian coming in and clean house and becoming another Caesar authoritively wise would be a whole other ballgame)
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:01   Link #144
Kaisos Erranon
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Again, I think that planning for such a situation is futile. We don't even know if Haruhi can die, and even if she can, she's lucky enough that I doubt it will be from an accident.

In mythology, gods are inevitably immortal. Why not her?

Besides, Haruhi as a series is way to light to even consider possibilities like that. She's in the title, she can't die.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:05   Link #145
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Well, my conjecture is that Sasaki will have to have this line of thinking regarding Haruhi, since Kaiso's view regarding would be that of Haruhi's perspective. The foil will come in when the concept of "filling in the shoes of someone so great as Haruhi when her era is over" comes into conflict of "the great era of Haruhi is far from over, if ever".

From Haruhi's point of view, looking at that possibility where Haruhi is not at the helm isn't worthwhile, but the foil would be that it must be considered. The issue isn't to debate the value in what Haruhi does anymore, but of who really stops the buck if Haruhi will not be able to metaphorically accept them anymore?
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:07   Link #146
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If Koizumi is right about Haruhi'spower slowly diminishing, I'd say the best course of action would be to stay the course. Leave Haruhi alone, don't seek to provoke her ability, and react to her outbursts when necessary. Haruhi's abilities haven't been triggered in a LONG time, and hopefully, they'll stay dormant. After all, the SOS Brigade has proven that they can at least prevent the end of the world (even if it takes Kyon 15000+ tries to do it.)

Also, I disagree that Sasaki has romantic feelings for Kyon, and that Kyon has romantic intentions for Haruhi.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:10   Link #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Well, my conjecture is that Sasaki will have to have this line of thinking regarding Haruhi, since Kaiso's view regarding would be that of Haruhi's perspective. The foil will come in when the concept of "filling in the shoes of someone so great as Haruhi when her era is over" comes into conflict of "the great era of Haruhi is far from over, if ever".

From Haruhi's point of view, looking at that possibility where Haruhi is not at the helm isn't worthwhile, but the foil would be that it must be considered. The issue isn't to debate the value in what Haruhi does anymore, but of who really stops the buck if Haruhi will not be able to metaphorically accept them anymore?
Why? If Haruhi can't consider it, it probably won't happen.

And besides. Sasaki hasn't really shown any kind of behavior that suggests she cares about much of anything at all, least of all what would happen if Haruhi died.

As of Vol. 9, as I recall, she still doesn't even believe that aliens et al. even exist.

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Also, I disagree that Sasaki has romantic feelings for Kyon, and that Kyon has romantic intentions for Haruhi.
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.

Sasaki's feelings for Kyon... we don't know.

Kyon's feelings for Sasaki... I suspect a failed crush he'll never admit, either. But that's just me.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:17   Link #148
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Well, why would it matter to Haruhi what others are considering? Whether if it happens or not is insignificant since it's like staring at totally different information from two different views that don't cross...

Besides, the reason why I would suggest Sasaki being put into the position of evaluating what to do to restore equilibrium, when this lover of normalcy is in a pinch by the weirdos ruining tranquility as Sasaki is forced to sit right beside Tachibana and co., as the trio do their thing. Minimizing potential havoc would be something that this firm believer of non-intervention would be pitted to do. It's be against every natural fiber of Sasaki, but letting Kuyoh and Tachibana having their go at Haruhi would essentially be problematic for Sasaki if she wishes to have any resemblence of a tranquil life...
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:18   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.
I'll admit that Kyon sometimes comments on her beauty, but that's not romantic, it's simply an observation of her physical body. To me, Kyon comments much more on how frustrating and annoying Haruhi is to him, even if he admires her initive and assertiveness from time to time.

Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:19   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.

Sasaki's feelings for Kyon... we don't know.

Kyon's feelings for Sasaki... I suspect a failed crush he'll never admit, either. But that's just me.
Yeah, we definitely run into the uncertainty of an unreliable narrator here. It's pretty obvious Kyon carries some sort of flame for Haruhi, but Sasaki is muddier than any previous relationship shown. Sasaki's own thoughts are equally opaque, but that's mainly because Kyon's terrible at reading her.

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Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.
As much as that might be fun, I think someone's deluding themselves
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:22   Link #151
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Besides, the reason why I would suggest Sasaki being put into the position of evaluating what to do to restore equilibrium, when this lover of normalcy is in a pinch by the weirdos ruining tranquility as Sasaki is forced to sit right beside Tachibana and co., as the trio do their thing. Minimizing potential havoc would be something that this firm believer of non-intervention would be pitted to do.
See, Sasaki strikes me as dangerous. Haruhi is built off of archetypes, and Sasaki has a hell of a lot of repressed emotions. Characters with repressed emotions are NEVER stable people.

Exactly what do you think she'd do if, in Vol. 10 Beta, she managed to gain the powers?

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Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.
See, here's your problem. *grumble*goddamn Yuki shippers*grumble*

Seriously though, read between the lines more.

Kyon sticks around Haruhi because he's concerned about her and her well-being. He's also a tsundere. Read his narration with that idea in mind, and you'll see what I mean.

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It's pretty obvious Kyon carries some sort of flame for Haruhi, but Sasaki is muddier than any previous relationship shown.
Kyon's flashback dream suggests that he was at the least physically attracted to her (and, of course, she laughs at him when he says this).

In LOVER, he mentions that he thinks about her "every few days or so"... and Vol. 9 reveals that he's never contacted her once since middle school.

I'd think that Kyon was really into her, but due to her personality it never went anywhere. He didn't contact her because he was rather bitter about it.

Also, notice that she and Haruhi are similar appearance-wise.


Just another half-CRACK theory from me.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:26   Link #152
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If Sasaki does gain Haruhi's power, she'd be her own walking contradiction... as her own existence would be significant, and that she would be abnormal comparing to humanity and that she would have question whether or not if this is indeed what the unaltered system of the universe would've lead to... I can only conclude that it'd be the same what if of "dictator Yang Wenli" in that case.

Somehow, she has to come up with her own metric of what is normal in an unaltered universe, and then act according to that model, with Haruhi power or not. With makes it easier to bend everything to her own perception of an unaltered universe, while without means that she must contend with a changing universe.

(I guess I really didn't consider romance into the equation... come to think of it)
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:27   Link #153
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
As much as that might be fun, I think someone's deluding themselves
I don't regard it as delusional. After all, if Haruhi's powers truely ARE diminishing, eventually she won't be able to rewrite exsitance should Kyon persue a different girl. Also, once the ability to create absolute data has disappeared, I'm sure the IDTE would have no more us for their interfaces, and thus give Yuki the freedom to do as she pleases.

And even the most rabid of Haruhi/Kyon shippers cannot deny Yuki's feelings for Kyon. But let's attempt to refrain from transforming this to a shipping war.

panzerfan seems to think Sasaki will be much more active than I do. To me, Sasaki seem the type to simply observe, not to interfere. She humors Kyouko's request for a meeting to learn more about her surroundings, and once faced with an obsticale (ie the phone line being busy when she attempts to call {thank you slider-tan}), she shrugs and gives up. Another foil to Haruhi's never-give-in attitude.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:28   Link #154
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
(I guess I really didn't consider romance into the equation... come to think of it)
...If Sasaki does harbor some kind of repressed feelings for Kyon, what would be the first thing she's do with her power?

I sense a Vol. 4-ish scenario coming on...

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I don't regard it as delusional. After all, if Haruhi's powers truely ARE diminishing, eventually she won't be able to rewrite exsitance should Kyon persue a different girl. Also, once the ability to create absolute data has disappeared, I'm sure the IDTE would have no more us for their interfaces, and thus give Yuki the freedom to do as she pleases.
More likely they'd just delete her.

What do you do with programs you no longer need?

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panzerfan seems to think Sasaki will be much more active than I do. To me, Sasaki seem the type to simply observe, not to interfere. She humors Kyouko's request for a meeting to learn more about her surroundings, and once faced with an obsticale (ie the phone line being busy when she attempts to call {thank you slider-tan}), she shrugs and gives up. Another foil to Haruhi's never-give-in attitude.
Kyon would do the same thing.

I really wonder how much of Kyon's current personality is based off of Sasaki.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:31   Link #155
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyon's flashback dream suggests that he was at the least physically attracted to her (and, of course, she laughs at him when he says this).

In LOVER, he mentions that he thinks about her "every few days or so"... and Vol. 9 reveals that he's never contacted her once since middle school.

I'd think that Kyon was really into her, but due to her personality it never went anywhere. He didn't contact her because he was rather bitter about it.

Also, notice that she and Haruhi are similar appearance-wise.


Just another half-CRACK theory from me.
I like this.

I submit one edit: Kyon discovered it hadn't worked, and he never tried because he didn't think it would go anywhere. He seems too... lazy to bother with bitterness about it for that long.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:33   Link #156
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Well, what prompted me into basing my notion around Sasaki doing anything she in fact has no will to do... is her love of the ordinary and orderly nature of things. The argument hangs in that if she idly sit and watch Tachibana, Kuyoh and Fujiwara, she will then be dragged like a ragdoll and horribly implicated, turning her own order into a mess and unleash who knows what on the universal order.

And if one is to act on the notion of abiding by this normal self-order, it would come to be intolerable when one's own self-order is to be compromised like that. That would mean that Sasaki has to play the game of the other three and contain them as to dampen if not eliminate all of their ability to sway the natural course any further.

Of course, this depends on whether or not if Sasaki cares that deeply about her own order that she will draw the sand over having her own tranquility compromised.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:35   Link #157
Kaisos Erranon
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I submit one edit: Kyon discovered it hadn't worked, and he never tried because he didn't think it would go anywhere. He seems too... lazy to bother with bitterness about it for that long.
That's probably more in-character, yeah.

Thanks, by the way.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:37   Link #158
Takamura Mamoru
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I'd immediately say "Kyon likes Haruhi" the moment I'd get any explicit clue on it.
When you begin with the story, Haruhi and Kyon seems more obvious than the fact that the sun is hot. But when I finished it, I honestly didn't know what to think about it anymore.

Sure, Kyon sometimes comments that she's very pretty and is obviously attracted to her body, but that goes for all the girls. Hell, he even admitted that he likes the crazy stuff Haruhi creates. Not to mention that "Haruhi always gets what she wants".

But beyond that? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What am I supposed to think now, that he's in denial 100% of the time?

Yuki on the other hand, has his emotional focus quite a lot.
I don't know.

Didn't Sasaki say love is bullshit? Another reason that I can hate her for. It's not the same as when Haruhi calls it an illness, she rationalizes it to such a degree, saying it "stunts humanities growth" and stuff. She's ten times worse than House could ever be with her logic and rationality crap.

Another thing is how her "Closed Space" is basically unchanging. At least I think it was, I don't remember everything from the novels, which is odd since I always remember a lot about fictional stuff. Anyway, I think that's scarier than Haruhi's closed space. At least she has goddamn emotions.

Also, the Data Entity can't delete Yuki. Kyon sorta threatened them to back the fuck off. (CMOA)
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:40   Link #159
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Also, the Data Entity can't delete Yuki. Kyon sorta threatened them to back the fuck off. (CMOA)
Sadly, they could, given that Haruhi's powers diminish to a point where it no longer threatens the IDTE... after all, Kyon's threat is based on provoking Haruhi's abilities.

Which raises the question of the character's status at the end of the story. All we know for sure is that Mikuru is DEFINITELY going back to the future. Outside of that, anything is possible.
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Old 2009-07-14, 20:41   Link #160
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It is exactly Sasaki's rational mind that I depend my entire conjecture on. Takamura Mamoru although made his point as a mean to address his rationale against Sasaki, I see that being the catalyst for Sasaki to force herself into the frey, because a rational mind will see the unstable nature to Tachibana and others pushing her as all too insulting, if not dangerous. Sasaki can easily rationalize that she will be used as a pawn to further a specific faction's agenda, which is to significantly alter the course of the universe...

It is hard to say where things will fall by the end of the story. We haven't seen any one save poor Asakura taking a bow and left the stage yet.
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