AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-07-14, 08:01   Link #221
plzd0ntkeelme
self-proclaimed otaku
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: toronto
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goilveig View Post
Well, that's debatable -- there's a huge amount of variety in guns of all kinds. There's large-caliber handguns and small-caliber rifles too. Though for other reasons I believe it was probably a rifle or shotgun.



There's a large variety of shotguns and rifles, and more importantly a large variety in ammo. They'd range anywhere from 130 to 170 dB, I picked 150 in my earlier analysis with shotguns/rifles in mind. High powered ammunition does push the volume up, but switching to subsonic ammunition on a rifle would lower the volume back down a bit. You lose range by going subsonic but it's not like they're likely to be sniping (which would be a whole different ballgame soundwise anyway).



Kinzo's study is on the third and highest floor. I believe all the others are on the second because it's my understanding all the guest rooms (and possibly even Krauss/Natsuhi's room) are on the 2nd.



It's true, though. Even the best silenced weapons are still quite loud -- 115 dB is a high-quality silencer on an average handgun, and that's slightly above the volume of your typical rock concert. Silencers are nothing at all like what video games and movies portray them as. They're actually more useful in that they make it harder to localize where the sound of the gunshot is coming from by messing with its acoustics.

A good silencer is about the same as having one relatively thin wall between you and the gun. So if you're in a cheap motel, and you shot a gun in your room, with a silencer it would sound about as if that same gun were fired in the adjacent room. If the gun were fired in the adjacent room, it would sound about as if it were two rooms away.



You could use a slower-acting poison. There's a veritable cornucopia of poisons out there, with time until death ranging anywhere from instant to as much as two weeks after ingestion. Even being limited to what could be easily obtained, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something that would allow sufficient time (at least several minutes) for all to drink before any died.

And as mentioned, eliminating anyone who survived would be the other major reason to have the gun ready.
Your science is much more debatable than that. First, remember that this is in 1986 so the rifle and shotgun should not be that complicated.

Anyways, again, when someone screaming, it will be more continuos and more discernible to pick up.

God, it's not about the time of death. It's about they all can't be dead at the same time. One or more could drink 10-15 mins later than the other. And the ones who drink earlier will still die earlier. These would obviously alert those still alive and they would start screaming and run around to warn everybody in the house. To take out these moving objects with lethal rifle and shotgun with huge noise would be retardedly daring on part of the murder.
plzd0ntkeelme is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 11:04   Link #222
Goilveig
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Your science is much more debatable than that. First, remember that this is in 1986 so the rifle and shotgun should not be that complicated.
There was still about the same variety as today. For a rifle, they'd probably have a .30-30 or a .30-06, both of those existed for about 80-90 years at the time. Both would have a large selection of rounds available. Both of those are extremely popular hunting cartridges as well, meaning it's not that hard for civilians to get a hold of.

Quote:
One or more could drink 10-15 mins later than the other. And the ones who drink earlier will still die earlier.
That's one of the benefits of tea; they probably won't let it sit for an exceptionally long time without drinking, since it would get cold. If the initial effects of the poison were drowsiness, someone who drank later might pass off the first symptoms of those who drank earlier as normal sleepiness (it's not odd to be sleepy at that hour), and by the time the first people collapsed the later ones are probably already getting drowsy themselves.

Quote:
These would obviously alert those still alive and they would start screaming and run around to warn everybody in the house. To take out these moving objects with lethal rifle and shotgun with huge noise would be retardedly daring on part of the murder.
It wouldn't be that hard, at short range. The noise isn't important as they're far enough away from the only other people in the house. Plus, if they see someone collapse, their first thought is probably to run to the person and check if they're OK, and that would give the killer an opportunity to shoot them point-blank and unmoving.
Goilveig is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 13:46   Link #223
Narokath
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
After just 2 episodes, it is extremely hard to deduce really anything with the underlying factor that they may in fact be supernatural deaths; The silhouette in Rose Garden, resembled that of none of the family members; I find it hard to believe that Beatrice herself showed up to Maria and gave her an umbrella - and the only one close enough in description and availability is Natsuhi.

The butterflies to me are more like remnants of Magic, the which more then likely exists but does not have a body as such yet (epitaph)... probably possession.

Maria is weird, its like she has an authentic perception for the sinister. She identifies the missing shrine (to what I don't know) and has a dark aura about her. The family members seem to either accept her beliefs or ignore them. At the dinner table when she reads the letter, she seemingly changes; almost like possession. I think she knows things and has a major role to play and one or more of the family members knows this.

The shed reveal, just looking at the reactions of the siblings... Everyone genuinely was in grievance relative to their character except Battler. He lost both his parents. George was in a more general state of disbelief that his love Shannon had died.

The scorpion charm given to Natsuhi from Jessica may tie into supernatural, maybe Jessica knew something? I mean it is an awfully fickle thing to randomly give to your mother so she feels better. The bloody handprints outside her door? Was this some supernatural entity trying to take her as well?

Shannon was designated Guest House midnight shift, so why did she "have errands to run" in the Mansion so close to midnight. She also didn't seem to happy about the ring, almost seemed like she was unhappy that she had to do something. She could have also been going to talk to Eva and her husband about the matter :s

All the people on the island have read the Epitaph at least once. I am sure that some of them thought of this as an opportunity with the family gathering.
Eva and Hideyoshi seem to be the couple that would try and interpret this Epitaph logically instead of inhumanely (The seemed generally disgusted at the disfigured faces)... Eva, Hideyoshi, Gohda are really the only 3 unaccounted for the night. Shannon being in the mansion, Gohda APPARENTLY being in the mansion and the rest of the non-family members in the guest house; either sleeping or resting (Kanon was serving Genji some Tea).

So of the people that died, they were ALL presumably in the mansion. Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi and Kinzo were also presumably in the mansion. Their deaths were at Midnight or close to just after; and their faces were disfigured after death... shed mural discovered by Genji. It seems to me that the culprit was among the dead and something happened in which the culprit also died, perhaps backfiring? Genji perhaps did the cleanup and setup this ritual as his method of Sacrifice.

Either way, the fingers point mainly at people who are already dead in my case, and I think that this will lead to one or more of the surviving people becoming the new culprit.

My Theory:
The person(s) I literally think is the mastermind behind this all is George and Shannon, originally. With the first twilight gone, I think people will be pointed at and this was George's plan from the start with Shannon's death to be removed from crosshairs. Shannon killed the people while George had an alibi and George finished up the rest of the job. It's quite possible he put the hand prints on Natsuhi's door or that was Shannon prior. The deaths of those people might make the interpretation of the Epitaph a reality for everyone and as such; George being extremely smart thought of this and planned ahead to leave his parents untouched so that the second twilight could be fulfilled "At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.". An interpretation of the line could mean relative to the events that took place on the previous line; to kill the two closest to you (his parents).

You ask why he would kill Shannon? Well the ending of the Epitaph is the answer to that, the assurance that she would still be alive.
Narokath is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 14:09   Link #224
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narokath View Post
Gohda APPARENTLY being in the mansion
Just to point this out shortly, because I don't think this will be visited again in the anime.
Gohda was in the mansion and encountered Shannon right after she entered. He preffered to enjoy himself with his crossword puzzle and pushed the nightshift and lockup (which was originally his duty for this night) onto Shannon.

He stayed behind in the servants room, while Shannon did the round for him, because she was both her usual flustered, shy self and not really in the mood to go against anything (with the proposal very probably still on her mind).
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 15:23   Link #225
plzd0ntkeelme
self-proclaimed otaku
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: toronto
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goilveig View Post
There was still about the same variety as today. For a rifle, they'd probably have a .30-30 or a .30-06, both of those existed for about 80-90 years at the time. Both would have a large selection of rounds available. Both of those are extremely popular hunting cartridges as well, meaning it's not that hard for civilians to get a hold of.



That's one of the benefits of tea; they probably won't let it sit for an exceptionally long time without drinking, since it would get cold. If the initial effects of the poison were drowsiness, someone who drank later might pass off the first symptoms of those who drank earlier as normal sleepiness (it's not odd to be sleepy at that hour), and by the time the first people collapsed the later ones are probably already getting drowsy themselves.



It wouldn't be that hard, at short range. The noise isn't important as they're far enough away from the only other people in the house. Plus, if they see someone collapse, their first thought is probably to run to the person and check if they're OK, and that would give the killer an opportunity to shoot them point-blank and unmoving.
Sigh, you ignore way too many uncertainties.
Whatever the variety, rifles and shotgun are loud enough to alert an entire building. Unless you read somewhere in the game that the building is built with special material that anybody in different room cannot hear anything loud from hallway, you're just making an assumption.

You're assuming way too many things regarding the tea.
How can you be sure that everybody at the heated discussion would remember to drink the tea while still warm?
How can you be sure that when the fatal effect happen to one, all the others will be drowsing.
You're also assuming that everyone drinks tea with the same amount in a period of time. They would all drink different amount in a period of time. Someone who drinks tea more than the others in a period of time, would experience the effect much quicker.

Again, you're assuming that all these people won't see nor hear anybody coming in a brightly-lit, spacious, open room.
The killer can hit them at vital parts with one shot while they're moving around? This means someone must've been some expert shooter. Again this is a form of assumption to expect a murderer is there with such skills.
Way too many assumptions in your post.
plzd0ntkeelme is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 15:29   Link #226
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
The poison theory has a second problem. Eva and her husband were likely with the other four before they turned in, so unless the poison was served after they left, it does not hold up very well. Unless it was just drugged and not poison, then Eva and her husband turning in early means in worked faster on them (or just her and he was being polite) and they slipped out before it had a chance to work on everyone else. The drug lasted only a short time so Eva and her husband would wake up normally while the other four were killed in their sleep.

That is if you think they were drugged. They'd still need to be moved to the shed, plus the two servents need to be accounted for.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 16:49   Link #227
Luxa
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The poison theory has a second problem. Eva and her husband were likely with the other four before they turned in, so unless the poison was served after they left, it does not hold up very well. Unless it was just drugged and not poison, then Eva and her husband turning in early means in worked faster on them (or just her and he was being polite) and they slipped out before it had a chance to work on everyone else. The drug lasted only a short time so Eva and her husband would wake up normally while the other four were killed in their sleep.

That is if you think they were drugged. They'd still need to be moved to the shed, plus the two servents need to be accounted for.
Combine this with sabotaging the inner telephone system and you have a very good opportunity to off the whole family quickly and with a relatively low risk. The cook and Shanon could have been either collateral damage (witnesses), tools outliving their usefulness or just means to reach the headcount of six.

However I have problems with the mutilation. If can think of only two rational reasons for that: either one or more of the victims are not really dead or one or more of the victims were impersonated before and someone seeing the dead bodies would recognise that fact.

Of course, the irrational or occult reasons for mutilations are probably limitless...
Luxa is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 17:00   Link #228
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Hiding how the victims were killed and to give the impression of a ritualistic sacrafice seem to be the motive for the defacement of the six. All the more to lend cause to the "witch".
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 21:35   Link #229
Karlson
Jumping...is useless!
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The poison theory has a second problem. Eva and her husband were likely with the other four before they turned in, so unless the poison was served after they left, it does not hold up very well. Unless it was just drugged and not poison, then Eva and her husband turning in early means in worked faster on them (or just her and he was being polite) and they slipped out before it had a chance to work on everyone else. The drug lasted only a short time so Eva and her husband would wake up normally while the other four were killed in their sleep.

That is if you think they were drugged. They'd still need to be moved to the shed, plus the two servents need to be accounted for.
Personally I don't think Eva and Hideyoshi were around when the killings started happening. There's no rules stating the deaths had to happen within the first couple of minutes past midnight (it's just making us think like that) unless that is the direct definition of twilight which I'm almost positive it's not.

I do give credit to the arguments against the poisoning theory tho. Everyone eats a sandwich or whatever the meal is and drinks a cup of tea at their own leisurly pace. I would down a cup of tea within a minute (depending on how hot it is) while there are many who would need at least 3 times that to drink something of that portion; it varies from person to person. So the likelihood that the severe poisoning effects are triggered at the same time is actually quite unlikely.

That said even a moderate cases of poisoning is still very harsh and can render someone helpless and in desperate need of medical attention right away. It doesn't have to be a severe case of poisoning.

Last edited by Karlson; 2009-07-15 at 17:01. Reason: Editing out a mistake on my part
Karlson is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 21:56   Link #230
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nanjo was sleeping in the guest house, along with the children, Kumasawa, Genji and Kanon.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 22:09   Link #231
plzd0ntkeelme
self-proclaimed otaku
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: toronto
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlson View Post
The noise made by gunfire won't matter unless you're 100% convinced that...

a)the killer isn't Natsuhi and
b)Nanjo isn't the killer either and was sleeping in the mansion in that scene during midnight.
Are Eva and Hideyoshi not supposed to be in the mansion? I sure did not get this impression from the anime.
Gohda was also in the mansion all night at different area of the building than the 3siblings and Kyrie.
plzd0ntkeelme is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 22:13   Link #232
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Are Eva and Hideyoshi not supposed to be in the mansion? I sure did not get this impression from the anime.
Gohda was also in the mansion all night at different area of the building than the 3siblings and Kyrie.
Natsuhi prepared extra rooms for the adults because of the bad weather, since she knew how the discussion would get. Eva and Hideyoshi stood in one of those rooms.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 22:14   Link #233
Goilveig
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Sigh, you ignore way too many uncertainties.
Whatever the variety, rifles and shotgun are loud enough to alert an entire building.
I think you overestimate how loud they are. I've frequently heard gunshots through only a single wooden wall when I'd go to my family's cabin and people would practice shooting right outside. And unfortunately I've also heard a gunshot from inside the building I was in; at one of my apartments some idiot two apartments down accidentally fired his rifle while trying to clear a jammed cartridge (thankfully nobody was hurt). They're not overwhelmingly loud; certainly not everyone in the apartment building heard the shot.

The biggest reason everyone in a modern house would hear the shot would be echoing down hallways. The standard cheap interior doors used in most construction are very flimsy, and don't block sound well at all. A mansion would have more solid doors, probably hardwood, and that blocks sound much more effectively. Plus, long corridors and multiple floors make it harder for sound to echo through the halls.

Quote:
You're assuming way too many things regarding the tea.
How can you be sure that everybody at the heated discussion would remember to drink the tea while still warm?
How can you be sure that when the fatal effect happen to one, all the others will be drowsing.
You're also assuming that everyone drinks tea with the same amount in a period of time. They would all drink different amount in a period of time. Someone who drinks tea more than the others in a period of time, would experience the effect much quicker.
You couldn't be certain (that's why the gun is a backup), but remember the killer would have known the dining habits of the guests too.

Quote:
Again, you're assuming that all these people won't see nor hear anybody coming in a brightly-lit, spacious, open room.
The killer was probably in the room with them -- someone they know and trust. And the killer would just need to stand behind them and shoot them in the back of the head.

Quote:
The killer can hit them at vital parts with one shot while they're moving around? This means someone must've been some expert shooter. Again this is a form of assumption to expect a murderer is there with such skills.
Way too many assumptions in your post.
It wouldn't take any particular skill to shoot someone in the head at less that five feet. Pretty much anyone could manage that. It would only become complex if you had to shoot multiple targets in succession.
Goilveig is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 22:28   Link #234
Goilveig
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The poison theory has a second problem. Eva and her husband were likely with the other four before they turned in, so unless the poison was served after they left, it does not hold up very well.
It may well have been served after they left, either intentionally or accidentally. It's possible they were intended to be victims #5 and #6, and their going to bed early saved their lives; in that possibility, Gohda and Shannon would simply be victims of convenience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxa View Post
However I have problems with the mutilation. If can think of only two rational reasons for that: either one or more of the victims are not really dead or one or more of the victims were impersonated before and someone seeing the dead bodies would recognise that fact.
It could also be to disguise the cause of death. For example, if poison was used, some can leave telltale discolorations of the lips or tongue. If a gun was used, severely damaging the head could hide that fact as well -- at least sufficiently so that Nanjo couldn't identify cause of death. This could help the killer in that nobody knows how they killed.
Goilveig is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 23:19   Link #235
plzd0ntkeelme
self-proclaimed otaku
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: toronto
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goilveig View Post
I think you overestimate how loud they are. I've frequently heard gunshots through only a single wooden wall when I'd go to my family's cabin and people would practice shooting right outside. And unfortunately I've also heard a gunshot from inside the building I was in; at one of my apartments some idiot two apartments down accidentally fired his rifle while trying to clear a jammed cartridge (thankfully nobody was hurt). They're not overwhelmingly loud; certainly not everyone in the apartment building heard the shot.

The biggest reason everyone in a modern house would hear the shot would be echoing down hallways. The standard cheap interior doors used in most construction are very flimsy, and don't block sound well at all. A mansion would have more solid doors, probably hardwood, and that blocks sound much more effectively. Plus, long corridors and multiple floors make it harder for sound to echo through the halls.



You couldn't be certain (that's why the gun is a backup), but remember the killer would have known the dining habits of the guests too.



The killer was probably in the room with them -- someone they know and trust. And the killer would just need to stand behind them and shoot them in the back of the head.



It wouldn't take any particular skill to shoot someone in the head at less that five feet. Pretty much anyone could manage that. It would only become complex if you had to shoot multiple targets in succession.
Rifle and shotgun aren't that loud, huh? Whatever. Not like you can prove those experiences.

This is not a hotel where the building have to be constructed with materials that absorb noises well. Stop making these assumptions unless you've read this from the Graphic Novel.

Dining habit? Did you forget the part where they meet once a year. A servant could predict Krauss', but that's assuming he would drink the same way as usual in the night when all the shocking events with Beatrice just happened while discussing with his siblings he met once a year about 10 tonnes of gold. And how would the killer predict the others who meet at the island once a year. Retarded assumption to say the least.

rofl So did the meeting in episode 1 show that the siblings trust each other? Do the siblings trust the servants when they all now have a shot on getting the gold? The answer is no. The husband might trust the wife or vice versa. But it doesn't matter since the siblings do not trust each other nor the servants. With Rudolf claiming that he's about to be killed, at least him and Kyrie should be extra careful at that night.

Gosh, did you bother to imagine the scenario at all? You have to shoot multiple targets without giving them time to run away and scream. You also cannot risk missing the shot because this might damage the wall, window, or the furniture, creating louder noise that will awaken the others and not to mention the killer would have to clean, replace and fix these afterward.
plzd0ntkeelme is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 23:33   Link #236
Tomoya-kun
Live the life you love
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Trying to access the world of Clannad
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
This is not a hotel where the building have to be constructed with materials that absorb noises well.
Kinzo wouldn't settle for cheap building, so the walls are going to be thick, so it's not going to be hard to muffle out sounds. Also, everyone sleeping are on the second floor and higher, so it's not like it'd be impossible for them not to hear a scream/silenced gunshot.
__________________


Little Busters!

Last edited by Tomoya-kun; 2009-07-15 at 00:26.
Tomoya-kun is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 23:40   Link #237
June 1983
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Rifle and shotgun aren't that loud, huh? Whatever. Not like you can prove those experiences.

This is not a hotel where the building have to be constructed with materials that absorb noises well. Stop making these assumptions unless you've read this from the Graphic Novel.

Dining habit? Did you forget the part where they meet once a year. A servant could predict Krauss', but that's assuming he would drink the same way as usual in the night when all the shocking events with Beatrice just happened while discussing with his siblings he met once a year about 10 tonnes of gold. And how would the killer predict the others who meet at the island once a year. Retarded assumption to say the least.

rofl So did the meeting in episode 1 show that the siblings trust each other? Do the siblings trust the servants when they all now have a shot on getting the gold? The answer is no. The husband might trust the wife or vice versa. But it doesn't matter since the siblings do not trust each other nor the servants. With Rudolf claiming that he's about to be killed, at least him and Kyrie should be extra careful at that night.

Gosh, did you bother to imagine the scenario at all? You have to shoot multiple targets without giving them time to run away and scream. You also cannot risk missing the shot because this might damage the wall, window, or the furniture, creating louder noise that will awaken the others and not to mention the killer would have to clean, replace and fix these afterward.
You know ... I've just been sitting back and quietly watching this, but it seems to me that you are unnecessarily boastful and rude. Just state your opinions and back them up as best as you can, instead of provoking other people. You seem awfully certain of every statement you make -- keep in mind that you only know a fraction of the story and for all you know, tomorrow's episode could blow everything you've posted right out of the water. If you don't want to look foolish, then try to be a little more polite and respectful with your opinions.
June 1983 is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 23:44   Link #238
Alaya
Counter Force
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Guys, I don't think we have to fight over how lound the gun sound could be. We don't even know that whether the gun was used in the first place. Also, we don't know the location where the victims die.

The argument is getting heat up so please cool down a bit. Being rush would really impair your judgement.
__________________
Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.
Alaya is offline  
Old 2009-07-14, 23:52   Link #239
Christen
Endless Nine
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In a certain tropical island
Age: 29
It is interesting to speculate how a gun could have been used in the killing in the first twilight no matter how unlikely the situation was. That would be the reason for a good debate.

However, I would have to agree with June 1983 that plzd0ntkeelme is having a "rude sound" to his posts ever since I've started reading. It would do well, to be polite to maintain a good debate. If you believe the other party is making arguments that doesn't appeal to your belief, you can always do it in a nicer way.
Christen is offline  
Old 2009-07-15, 00:28   Link #240
plzd0ntkeelme
self-proclaimed otaku
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: toronto
Age: 28
I'm just pointing the flaws in his post that can easily be identified with logic. Everything that I said is directed to the logic of his posts. I did not insult anybody. And there is no rule saying we're supposed to write beatiful posts that are pleasant to the ears.
plzd0ntkeelme is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.