AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Haruhi Suzumiya

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-07-15, 04:35   Link #181
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
but from Mikuru's explaination to Kyon, it sounded almost like there was a time the Time Travellers could travel further then 4 years in the past?
You do realize that statement is paradoxical, right?

Because if there was a "time" when they could travel further into the past, then they just have to travel to that time as a pit-stop to go further back.

What you are looking for, isn't "time", but "world". There might well have once been a future world/universe where they could go further back in time, but that future universe no longer exists.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 04:42   Link #182
kniteowl
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
^a future universe that no longer exist?

Are we assuming that the future is linear and multiple futures don't exist?

Or should we assume that the future universe that no longer exist was changed similar to how Yuki changed the world in volume 4.
kniteowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 04:42   Link #183
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4evr View Post
In Mysterque Sign, it's said that the cave cricket came to earth billions of years ago, so 'yes'.
Not realy. They could be created 4 years ago but thinks that existed for much more time. Like Itsuki said to Kyon, the world could be created 5 minutes ago and you just "born" with your past memories.

It is hard to say for sure (however, I would not be too quick to believe Koizumi).

Oh, yeah, having a "time" when the time-travelers could bo back prior 4 years ago do not make sense. Unless it is a problem on the future, not in the past (like some bug on the time machine)
Heatth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 04:46   Link #184
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
Well, Nagato did claim that the cricket's billions of years old, so Kyon, and subsequently we, are more inclined to take her words for it than we would Koizumi.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 04:48   Link #185
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kniteowl View Post
^a future universe that no longer exist?

Are we assuming that the future is linear and multiple futures don't exist?

Or should we assume that the future universe that no longer exist was changed similar to how Yuki changed the world in volume 4.
I am more thinking alone the lines of endless eight; that the future that can travel further back in time once existed in a 10 dimensional space-time, but the "data explosion", which didn't so much happen on the timeline as happen everywhere at once, severed that.

You see, I believe Haruhi's capacity to alter things outside Space Time, including committing Genocide on the Data Overmind if she so wish, means the "Data Explosion" didn't HAPPEN 3 years ago. It's just that 3 years ago is as far as anyone is capable to observing, because Haruhi has permanently blocked off access. Haruhi could have been using her god-like powers before 3 years ago... But no one would know because no one could check.

Quote:
Well, Nagato did claim that the cricket's billions of years old, so Kyon, and subsequently we, are more inclined to take her words for it than we would Koizumi.
The Cricket is billion of years old in terms of DATA. Data includes memories, so as long as everyone concerned remember there being a time before 3 years ago, then as far as Yuki is concerned they exist before then.

In a way, it doesn't matter if there was a universe before three years ago. I mean, for the duration of Endless Eight there was no universe after the 1st day of August. Yet no one cared to ask if the older Future Mikuru who got recreated is "real" or not. The future was gone, then it came back. But it made no real difference.

Yuki's attitude to all this is what I follow: As long as the data is transmitted perfectly, it doesn't matter what technically happened, what matters is what you get in the end.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 04:55   Link #186
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Holy...

How's this for an idea?

Before 3YA, Haruhi was perfectly aware that she was God. The 3YA event was a side effect of her sealing away her own memory of them, in order to stop being God. (It didn't work.)

CRACK as all hell, but I think it's an interesting idea.

(At that point, she also separated herself into two distinct individuals... nah, that's too CRACK.)
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 05:26   Link #187
Heatth
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brasil
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Heatth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Holy...

How's this for an idea?

Before 3YA, Haruhi was perfectly aware that she was God. The 3YA event was a side effect of her sealing away her own memory of them, in order to stop being God. (It didn't work.)

CRACK as all hell, but I think it's an interesting idea.

(At that point, she also separated herself into two distinct individuals... nah, that's too CRACK.)
Heh, would could start posting you theorys on TVtropes, it would be funny .

Well, a have tought something like that some time ago. As a sollution to "how the Cretator could not remember creating am being part of it creation?"

But where is goes the baseball event? The one when she start to feel melancholic?
Heatth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 05:29   Link #188
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
She made that up to explain her own remaining feelings.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 05:42   Link #189
Kogetsu Shirogane
Crackshipper
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mitakihara
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to Kogetsu Shirogane
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4evr View Post
In Mysterque Sign, it's said that the cave cricket came to earth billions of years ago, so 'yes'.
Here's the thing. This was said by a character who had only been alive for three years at the time, something she admits to and Asakura confirms in Melancholy. Even if we are to assume this information came from her creators, we still have no way of knowing how accurate it is, as there is no way to prove how long they have existed.

To put it a different way, I am currently 24. Should I be considered a reliable source of information about events that occured centuries or even one year before I was born? I have no way of knowing this information beyond what I am told by others, who may not know themselves.
__________________
Kyouko Sakura and Madoka Kaname, Puella Magi Madoka Magica
WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight.
... well at least it's consistent...
Kogetsu Shirogane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 05:51   Link #190
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
Unfortunately, how much trust would we put in Koizumi... in some sense, when we doubt the intrinsic value of all the information presented, it would then becomes incredibly difficult to decide what is true, given that Kyon himself is questionable as he has his own bias. Nagato does convey more weight to Kyon given her track records, so we have no choice but to conclude that Nagato's accounts hold more weight to Kyon, our source of information.

Kogetsu Shirogane's argument would make how that everyone "stand on the shoulder of giants" regarding human knowledge to be quite problematic given that most of us have no way of knowing much of historical information beyond what we were told, who may not know themselves... such as how we call out on the site of cremotoriums, let along how we go about to figure out sites of the fabled X'ia dynasty of China.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 05:57   Link #191
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Unfortunately, how much trust would we put in Koizumi... in some sense, when we doubt the intrinsic value of all the information presented, it would then becomes incredibly difficult to decide what is true, given that Kyon himself is questionable as he has his own bias. Nagato does convey more weight to Kyon given her track records, so we have no choice but to conclude that Nagato's accounts hold more weight to Kyon, our source of information.
The point here, is that since nobody could got back further than 3 years ago, there is just no proof one way or another. There is physical evidence that the world existed before 3 years ago, but it doesn't actually matter if it did exist or not because it made no difference.

Did it matter that the future was briefly annihilated during Endless Eight? No, because the future was restored, so there was no effect in the end. So why would the existence of the past matter, as long as the effect is the same?
That's what Yuki meant, when she claimed as long as data is transmitted accurately, actual time travel was irrelevant. Kyon wasn't sent back to the future by Yuki; he was frozen in time and unfrozen later. But since the effect is the same, then for all intent and purposes he did time travel.

Whether a past actually existed or not... does it really matter? For Yuki, it wouldn't. The data that suggested a past existed is there, thus it exists.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 07:11   Link #192
spawnofthejudge
Explodes when thrown
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Here's the thing. This was said by a character who had only been alive for three years at the time, something she admits to and Asakura confirms in Melancholy. Even if we are to assume this information came from her creators, we still have no way of knowing how accurate it is, as there is no way to prove how long they have existed.

To put it a different way, I am currently 24. Should I be considered a reliable source of information about events that occured centuries or even one year before I was born? I have no way of knowing this information beyond what I am told by others, who may not know themselves.
There's also the old joke: If the universe was created this morning at 10:04:39 precisely, including with evidence that it existed beforehand (not to mention our memories say so too), would we ever know?
__________________
Badass.
spawnofthejudge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 07:24   Link #193
Takamura Mamoru
The Hawk
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
Or, in Koizumi's words:

"We cannot erase the possibility that the world was created 5 minutes ago."

Well, nobody know what happened 3 years ago. Maybe the world was created then. However, Mikuru does not believe that, according to Yuki.
I cannot imagine the Data Entity being 3 years old either, which would fit with Mikurus theory that Haruhi did not create this world and that it existed in this state long before her.

Maybe Haruhi just cut off the past, in a way like she cut off the future in Endless Eight. That's why nobody can travel past that point. Maybe it's a defense mechanism so someone cannot do something to her before she started using her powers.
Takamura Mamoru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 08:19   Link #194
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
I guess we are falling into a dangerous fallacy of continuous chain of speculation. It becomes to tempting to look into the validity and worth of everything starting from page 1 of Melancholy, but if we do that, then we'd be going in circles just on the nuances of whether or not if the actual age of the universe holds any meaning to the crew whatsoever.

About information, matter and energy... information itself may just "disappear" if the medium goes into a black hole and then gets "converted" and spews out, when that's not supposed to have happened given that you supposedly should, in theory, have the ability to reassemble the information from whatever form the medium becomes...

well, that might be scary. Lost information in this universe, in Hawking's mind goes into some baby or alternate universe (no relation), or that it's tied up in the cause and effect of things, which becomes a real issue since it would mean that nature doesn't really 'evolve' with time...
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 08:20   Link #195
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
Or, in Koizumi's words:

"We cannot erase the possibility that the world was created 5 minutes ago."

Well, nobody know what happened 3 years ago. Maybe the world was created then. However, Mikuru does not believe that, according to Yuki.
I cannot imagine the Data Entity being 3 years old either, which would fit with Mikurus theory that Haruhi did not create this world and that it existed in this state long before her.

Maybe Haruhi just cut off the past, in a way like she cut off the future in Endless Eight. That's why nobody can travel past that point. Maybe it's a defense mechanism so someone cannot do something to her before she started using her powers.
But if Haruhi has cut off the past, then doesn't it mean the world didn't exist before 3 years ago?
Because, let's face it, if you ask "when" in time was the Past cut off, it made no sense.

If Haruhi has annihilated the past the same way she annihilated the future in Endless Eight, then the fact that there was once a past before 3 years ago then no longer matters. It doesn't exist now, so it never existed, unless Haruhi puts it back.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 10:25   Link #196
Jintor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Land Down Under
Age: 23
Except that the world she created 'came' with a past.

No, I don't understand it either.

/EDIT reading up a bit, I appear to be looping arguements, as Panzerfan predicted.
Jintor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 10:37   Link #197
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
Except that the world she created 'came' with a past.

No, I don't understand it either.

/EDIT reading up a bit, I appear to be looping arguements, as Panzerfan predicted.
"Came", past-tense, assumed that there was a "time" when the Past existed.

But the past can't exist somewhere in time, it IS time. By Haruhi cutting out the Past, it would never have existed at all. The past either exists or doesn't; once the past vanished, by definition it has never been.

Once again, I bring up Endless Eight: Obviously for the majority of the show, Adult Mikuru's time in the future exists. But for a short while, it doesn't exist. It wasn't erased; it just doesn't exist at all. But then, it exists again. For when it exists, it has always existed. For when it was gone, it was never there.

"When" something happens, is meaningless when we are talking about altering time itself. This reminds me of a Discworld Novel, whereby mystical monks had to spend a long... "something", to repair a time-crash, in order to sew a damaged timeline back together. How much "time" it took for them to fix it, didn't make much sense as a question...
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 11:24   Link #198
Takamura Mamoru
The Hawk
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
It's all speculation now, I just thought that maybe the past continues to go on, only seperate from Haruhi's world.
It basically split in two lines, only one line (the world now) starts at that point.

Also, I think it's a difference if Haruhi cut off the past or created a new universe. Because cutting off the past means that she did not create aliens, time travelers and such and they existed before her.
If she did create the world, they're all 3 years old and their memories should be considered artificial.
At least the Entity should be able to find out wether it's 3 years old or billions of years old... From the Entities point of view, it's been observing the Universe since.. Ever. Then, Haruhi happened.

Good lord, this is confusing.
Takamura Mamoru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 11:37   Link #199
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 22
Well of course the biggest issue is that Mikuru once stated that they were not able to time travel past 3 years ago.

The thing that I find funny is that Kyon rarely has talked (If at all) about memories that existed before 3 years ago. We learned about him and Sasaki, but that was within the 3 year gap between the explosion of information and his meeting of Haruhi.

It just leads me to believe that everyone's memories before the 3 year gap are perhaps fabricated by Haruhi and that the world truly began at that point. There is no proof to this, but it makes sense considering that they cannot time travel behind this date.

The thing about Endless Night is that it was a time recursion, you cannot travel foward in something that is just a loop. The bridge between the present and future was burned, but it is not like there is no future as a paradox would form with Mikuru's existence since she is from the future.

Bah, I hate time travel. Never makes sense.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-07-15, 13:32   Link #200
Sute443
Sasaki-ist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The thing about Endless Night is that it was a time recursion, you cannot travel foward in something that is just a loop. The bridge between the present and future was burned, but it is not like there is no future as a paradox would form with Mikuru's existence since she is from the future.
Temporal paradoxes do not matter. They do not effect what does exist and what does not. The whole "paradox" issue seems to stem from people thinking that something needs a past in order to exist. A past is not necessary. Real World Example: The Universe only goes back around 13.7 billion years. It has no past beyond that (time itself does not go back beyond that). Therefore, there is no reason to believe that a character would stop existing just because their past got cut off.

So what if Mikuru didn't have a past for those two weeks? None of the other characters did either. Just like you can't go forward in a loop, you can't go backwards in a loop.

Take a length of string. Cut a smaller length from the middle of it and connect the two ends of that piece together. The segments you cut off from the inner segment represent the past and future, with the middle segment of course being the loop. The fact that the pieces are no longer connected does not stop them from existing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Bah, I hate time travel. Never makes sense.
It makes perfect sense if you are willing to stop clinging to that pesky "causality" thing.
__________________
Sute443 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.