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Old 2009-07-16, 10:45   Link #281
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GHDpro View Post
Even more of a paradox is - how is the average user going to download IE (or any other browser)... without a browser?

...that's my main use of IE on a new system usually: grab Firefox.
Last I heard - and that was something like two months ago, so I don't know whether there were any other developments or amendments to this decision - the EU kept bi***ing about MS' move, deeming it 'not sufficient enough'. They proposed a pop-up screen offering different options (Firefox, IE, Opera, SeaMonkey, Safari, Chrome or whatever you like or is popular enough nowadays)...but I don't know whether the said menu would allow the user to connect with a local network and grab the said browser or if it was just some sort of catalog/fascicle. But then again, it was merely a recommendation; MS wasn't obliged to abide by the EU's word on that one. The EEC comment wasn't exactly graced by dithyrambic comments from most IC pundits, either, so...*shrugs*...wait and see. In my case, I'll probably acquire the U.S. version rather than the EU-exclusive one. I prefer to deal with English interfaces anyway...:P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Back in the Old Days... you got your browser via a CD so I'm sure something can be arranged to bootstrap the situation.
Sure, I guess someone will eventually cook up a W7 DVD slipstreamer like nLite or vLite (respectively for XP and Vista), but until then, well, I guess either keep a copy of the browser installer on a different drive/external HDD/CD/USB key or tweak the ISO to include the said browser. As a side note, I'm not sure whether they finally succeeded in slipstreaming IE8 on XP CDs. Four to six months ago, they still had some trouble (or so I noticed on one of those forums)...I'm not sure about today.

Quote:
Personally, "removing the IE" from the OS shouldn't automatically mean it isn't available as an install on the OS disk.... but I think there's more than a little Ballmer ego driving their decision-making rather than customer service. :P
It's not so much customer service that compelled them to rip IE8 out of W7's application landscape (Build 7600 RTM is announced for in a week or two, btw) but rather fear of retaliation from the EEC who's still on their case even though they released the XP Edition N (which stands for 'Not with WMP')...which nobody bothered to buy, by the by...

EDIT: gah. Made a mess of the tag order. Fixed.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2009-07-16 at 10:58.
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Old 2009-07-16, 10:52   Link #282
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Nope, I never upgrade operating systems. When I buy a new computer, I'll get a new operating system, as simple as that.
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:12   Link #283
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Well, if other operating systems have browsers preinstalled like Mac OS X with Safari and Ubuntu with Firefox (or Konqueror with KDE) for example... should the EU tell them to remove them? The main difference is that they are not tightly integrated with the operating system unlike Internet Explorer... Even if Internet Explorer isn't as integrated as it used to... it still holds a majority of the market share which is why the EU wants Microsoft to something about it... but removing it will just give the same results like removing Windows Media Player... instead... they should provide links on the desktop to other web browsers instead of removing IE completely... With IE removed completely... it's really difficult to a average user to download a web browser since there is no web browser to download the install file...
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:39   Link #284
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No, as that Vista works fine..
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Old 2009-07-16, 11:49   Link #285
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Well, if other operating systems have browsers preinstalled like Mac OS X with Safari and Ubuntu with Firefox (or Konqueror with KDE) for example... should the EU tell them to remove them? The main difference is that they are not tightly integrated with the operating system unlike Internet Explorer... Even if Internet Explorer isn't as integrated as it used to... it still holds a majority of the market share which is why the EU wants Microsoft to something about it... but removing it will just give the same results like removing Windows Media Player... instead... they should provide links on the desktop to other web browsers instead of removing IE completely... With IE removed completely... it's really difficult to a average user to download a web browser since there is no web browser to download the install file...
They didn't tell MS not to *offer* IE... EU said it couldn't be integrated into the operating system because, oddly enough, its an application and there are competing applications on the market. There's also some arguments about why you'd want a browser ententacled into an OS anyway. MS could easily have provided every basic browser on the market in a little folder on the OS as a 'freeware sample mix' including IE8. Corporations do not automatically make the best business decisions -- they're quite frequently driven by arrogant assholes who make stupid-ass choices because they're egomaniacs who hate being told "no".

Open source IE8 and offer it on multiple platforms and all the competing OSs would offer it -- they all have the "we pre-installed one for you but its not part of the intrinsic OS and its easy to switch it out because here's a list of all the browsers we've heard of".

MS sometimes seems psychotically compelled to introduce "lock-in" even when it actively works against their best interests. The purely 'marketing' mandate to integrate the browser into the OS introduced a horde of security and reliability issues that just didn't freaking need to happen. Browsers are, by nature, nasty little promiscuous things that visits all sorts of infested locales... so here lets put it in Ring Zero.... d'oh.
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:07   Link #286
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The problem would be... Microsoft is reluctant to place competitor's browsers on their operating system because that would hurt their market share in Ballmer's eyes....

Internet Explorer 8 may not be as integrated as Internet Explorer 6... but it's still a lock-in... and you know well that Microsoft will never open source Internet Explorer 8 until pigs fly... since Microsoft is against open source software and all..
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Old 2009-07-16, 13:10   Link #287
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Might be irrevalnt but I came across this while I was browsing the Web

Browser comparison chart of Firefox and Chrome VS IE8 In microsoft land
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Old 2009-07-16, 13:16   Link #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
but removing it will just give the same results like removing Windows Media Player
The problem with the N editions was that there're also versions of XP and Vista with Windows Media Player included that cost the same. So there's little incentive for most people to get the N editions, especially if they will use Windows Media Player anyway.

With the E editions, they're the only ones offered in the EU nations (maybe there're also N editions with no IE and no WMP).
Quote:
it's really difficult to a average user to download a web browser since there is no web browser to download the install file...
I'm thinking the average user would get a browser preinstalled with their new computer. Microsoft isn't preventing OEM to bundle a web browser with Windows 7.

The rest have more than enough time to acquire a browser installer before or after they install Windows 7, either through another computer or FTP or having it ready in external storage media. Then there's the installation discs Microsoft (and I read somewhere Mozilla and probably other companies as well) will be offering, though there's probably a media fee involved with that.
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Old 2009-07-16, 15:30   Link #289
Miles Teg
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To download the last Firefox with Windows 7 E

Open a command line and type :

Code:
ftp ftp.mozilla.org
anonymous
cd pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest/win32/fr/
dir
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.5.exe"
It's easy, I really don't see why people complain that much
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Old 2009-07-16, 16:16   Link #290
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
To download the last Firefox with Windows 7 E

Open a command line and type :

Code:
ftp ftp.mozilla.org
anonymous
cd pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest/win32/fr/
dir
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.5.exe"
It's easy, I really don't see why people complain that much
For the informed and experienced people as well as those who are actually willing to sniff around and find a solution to their conundrum (in other - but perhaps not so benevolent - words, instilled with initiative and a desire to learn), it's no sweat, certainly. However, for the average users (which we were talking about), it's pretty much something that is out of the realm of both their knowledge and understanding. Some might - no, let me correct that: will - even sputter 'Huh - use the command line? How so? This ain't the DOS age anymore! You are the n00b!'.

Okay - I concede, I might be exaggerating but, well, we know what kind of people lurks on the Interwebs...*sigh*

EDIT: not to mention that if they want something other than FFox, like Opera, Flock, Safari or Chrome (who should be getting its browser-centered OS somewhere in the far future), they might not necessarily know the ftp address (if any) - and in the end, they'll probably end up using another PC to dl the browser and ferry it over with a USB stick. No hassle, but a modicum of imagination (and a spare PC) is still required.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2009-07-16 at 18:12.
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Old 2009-07-16, 17:06   Link #291
Vexx
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well... the cruel part of me says that'd be a nice IQ check before you're allowed on the web -- but we're way past that moment. ..
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Old 2009-07-16, 18:06   Link #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
To download the last Firefox with Windows 7 E

Open a command line and type :

Code:
ftp ftp.mozilla.org
anonymous
cd pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest/win32/fr/
dir
binary
get "Firefox Setup 3.5.exe"
It's easy, I really don't see why people complain that much
Not everyone is computer savy, so the average Joe won't know what to do nor know how to do that... Of course with experienced users like myself would be able to do it.

Removing Internet Explorer from the Windows 7 E editions is probably the dumbest idea ever and it's a inconvenience if a person only owns one computer... What they should have done is just have the browser install files preinstalled or have a graphical program which will download the latest web browser which most average users can understand instead of entering 5 lines of command lines.
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Old 2009-07-17, 01:02   Link #293
Miles Teg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Not everyone is computer savy, so the average Joe won't know what to do nor know how to do that... Of course with experienced users like myself would be able to do it.
My comment was sarcastic, I now full well that "normal" people will never be able to do that
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Old 2009-07-17, 12:17   Link #294
AnimeTheme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Removing Internet Explorer from the Windows 7 E editions is probably the dumbest idea ever and it's a inconvenience if a person only owns one computer... What they should have done is just have the browser install files preinstalled or have a graphical program which will download the latest web browser which most average users can understand instead of entering 5 lines of command lines.
Well you can install IE from the setup disc for the sole purpose of downloading another browser. That is still dumb though LOL
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Old 2009-07-17, 16:28   Link #295
chikorita157
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Well you can install IE from the setup disc for the sole purpose of downloading another browser. That is still dumb though LOL
Internet Explorer 8 does not come on the Windows 7 E discs, you have to download the image before installing 7 or downloading the EXE file, but it still a inconvience. especially if you just going to download Firefox/Safari/Chrome/Opera... but OEM in EU can decide if they want to put IE8 on Windows 7 or not.

Also, another pain the EU will get is that Microsoft will only sell full, boxed, retail copies of Windows 7 E without any upgrade option since IE8 is removed.... This means that people that live in the EU will have to pay double just to upgrade to Windows 7 E (which is essentially a Service Pack IMO and give little benefit over Vista). Probably the high prices in the EU will push people to import the US copies, stay with Windows XP/Vista or even switch to alternatives like Linux or Mac. Basically, Microsoft shot themselves in the foot in the EU.

Source: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10287468-56.html
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Old 2009-07-18, 05:13   Link #296
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Internet Explorer 8 does not come on the Windows 7 E discs, you have to download the image before installing 7 or downloading the EXE file, but it still a inconvience. especially if you just going to download Firefox/Safari/Chrome/Opera
Why would anyone need to install IE just to download another browser? Just install the other browser right away. The bigger hassle here is for those who will use IE and expect it to already be up and running when they start Windows 7.
Quote:
Also, another pain the EU will get is that Microsoft will only sell full, boxed, retail copies of Windows 7 E without any upgrade option since IE8 is removed.... This means that people that live in the EU will have to pay double just to upgrade to Windows 7 E (which is essentially a Service Pack IMO and give little benefit over Vista). Probably the high prices in the EU will push people to import the US copies, stay with Windows XP/Vista or even switch to alternatives like Linux or Mac. Basically, Microsoft shot themselves in the foot in the EU.

Source: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10287468-56.html
The article you linked to contradicts your claim of higher price:

"As a result, for now Microsoft is not offering an "upgrade" version of Windows 7 "E" but is instead selling the full boxed version (which does not require a prior Windows installation) at the upgrade price."
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Old 2009-07-18, 07:17   Link #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Why would anyone need to install IE just to download another browser? Just install the other browser right away. The bigger hassle here is for those who will use IE and expect it to already be up and running when they start Windows 7. The article you linked to contradicts your claim of higher price:

"As a result, for now Microsoft is not offering an "upgrade" version of Windows 7 "E" but is instead selling the full boxed version (which does not require a prior Windows installation) at the upgrade price."
Actually that is only for a limited time since (at least in the UK) it'll be full price by the end of the year which will be 150 for home premium E and 250 for professional E

Also I won't be switching since (probably) apart from my soundcard everything else won't have windows 7 drivers (which stinks since my motherboard isn't even two years old)
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Old 2009-07-18, 08:22   Link #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonix View Post

Also I won't be switching since (probably) apart from my soundcard everything else won't have windows 7 drivers (which stinks since my motherboard isn't even two years old)
Not sure how's this a MS fault and not the usual crappy hardware manufacturer's fault.
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Old 2009-07-18, 08:57   Link #299
Miles Teg
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It's possible that the motherboard will be natively supported by Windows 7, in this case the manufacturer won't released driver.

My GA P35-DS3P don't need driver for example.
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Old 2009-07-18, 09:17   Link #300
Renegade334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonix View Post
Also I won't be switching since (probably) apart from my soundcard everything else won't have windows 7 drivers (which stinks since my motherboard isn't even two years old)
If you have the Vista driver installer for your soundcard, you can still use it on W7 - that is, if W7 doesn't already have it. Just right-click the installer, enter 'properties' and set the compatibility mode to 'Vista SP1'/'Vista SP2' and install as administrator.

Unless the app has an in-built procedure that checks which OS it's dealing with (and therefore will start whining that it only knows either XP or Vista but can't figure out for the life of itself how to deal with a newer build/model -- happened with one of my Asus drivers but thankfully it was only the graphical program/launch interface that kept b****ing around, not the driver installer itself, which I then had to locate and start), the install should be successful.


And, yes, compared to Vista, W7 has a much more impressive driver pool - first time I installed it on my brand new machine I didn't even need to install any new driver (save for my wi-fi antenna and the nVidia proggie, which allowed me to select a higher refresh frequency for my screen), whereas Vista:
- still needed assistance for my sound card.
- refused to initiate Aero Glass until I had the system take a performance benchmark and deem it okay to start AG...W7 does it right from the install.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2009-07-18 at 11:07.
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