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Old 2009-06-06, 08:19   Link #41
Keroko
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I don't believe this game is a 'WoW killer' mainly because this game is based on an entirely different genre. WoW is a fantasy MMO, TOR is a sci-fi MMO. Fans of fantasy MMO's don't necessarily need to like a sci-fi one and vice versa. This game may attract an entirely different cloud of games who are interested in MMO's, but never played MMO's before simply because they weren't interested in the sea of fantasy ones.

Then there are fans of KotoR, Star Wars fans, and people who are just bored of WoW and want to try something new.

What do I expect? I expect most people who play WoW to keep on playing, and try out TOR when it comes out. Some will stay, some will go back, some will keep playing both. But the people who 'leave' will only be a tiny fraction of the total number of WoW players.

No matter how good a game TOR might become, if players aren't interested in sci-fi or Star Wars, they simply won't play it.

Me being a Star Wars junkie though, they'll have to screw up the game really bad for me to want to leave it.
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Old 2009-06-06, 10:30   Link #42
Mr Hat and Clogs
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WoW will be around for a long time to come, probably the only thing to 'de-throne' it will have to be something 'revolutionary' - like.. a working version of the Matrix? ho ho. A slightly technical analogy for WoW would be a Sun, it's reached a stage of self sustaining nuclear fusion and all that, and the only way its gona 'die' is if it collapses under its own weight or something bigger consumes it. But that's neither here nor there since that's not what this thread is about!

One thing that would worry me is seeing the features of TOR appearing in the next WOW expansion, like a number of the LOTR:O ones did in WOTLK. Innovation is good but it kinda irked me a a little, but that's a discussion for elsewhere.


Play what you like, if the game is good and enjoyable then great! I like a variety of MMO's myself even if WoW is my main game I love trying new things. If they can pull off a true sci-fi space MMO that has good game play and doesn't lock out the majority of players (be it through technical or gameplay limitations) then there should be no reason why the game cannot succeed to 'at least' the level of LOTR:O, or hell, even EVE (and EVE is on the upswing evidently).

The big constant between games is rabid fanboys who hate on anything that isn't their 'baby'. You just need to filter past the crap, and see the game(s) for yourself and make your own call. Best we can do is discuss what we know and hope for, and make recommendations off of that information. At least until we have the game to play.
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Old 2009-06-06, 21:41   Link #43
gonzo562
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basically its random crash to desktops. It happens randomly when im playing.

I try to find the log to get more specifics
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Old 2009-06-06, 22:45   Link #44
Shinoto
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Trailer looked awesome, but Class system doesn't give me much hoped. Looks more like its going be a linear on rails type experience like WoW then the sandbox style of SWG.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:15   Link #45
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Unfortunately I think that's a big limitation with MMO's and balance. If it was a true sandbox (I'm not sure how it was in SWG this is more an Oblivion style example), you'd end up with multi-class Jedi Smugglers who have decent range attacks and when things get tough, they can whip out their lightsaber for some close range action, or use force powers to achieve range again. It sounds awesome in theory, but how would you balance that against someone who, for example goes a melee/tank role. They'd have huuuuuuuuge issues of people cherry picking stuff.

Those are just two simple examples, people could come up with a huge variety of combination's. You only need to look at WoW to see how even with set classes that balance is a huge issue, for both PvE and PvP and I'm sure TOR will have PvP. I say its almost a certainty that if they go with set classes they will have customization options within the class similar to WoW or old school D&D (I really need another example game.. um The Witcher?) that will let the player follow a path they like though. But maybe they'll have some little innovative way to improve class customization which wont rape the balance of the game as a whole. (Un)fortunately (depending on your POV) 'talent trees' for classes in MMO's seem to have become all the rage these days - blame WoW? True sandbox games are just too hard to balance and don't inspire variety (which is a bit of a paradox really when you think about it).

Anyway I'm sure they have come up with a method that incorporates aspects of their previous successes into an MMO mold to allow for some level of individuality between players. It just hasn't been explained/revealed properly yet.
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Old 2009-06-07, 03:51   Link #46
Jazzrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't believe this game is a 'WoW killer' mainly because this game is based on an entirely different genre. WoW is a fantasy MMO, TOR is a sci-fi MMO. Fans of fantasy MMO's don't necessarily need to like a sci-fi one and vice versa. This game may attract an entirely different cloud of games who are interested in MMO's, but never played MMO's before simply because they weren't interested in the sea of fantasy ones.

Then there are fans of KotoR, Star Wars fans, and people who are just bored of WoW and want to try something new.

What do I expect? I expect most people who play WoW to keep on playing, and try out TOR when it comes out. Some will stay, some will go back, some will keep playing both. But the people who 'leave' will only be a tiny fraction of the total number of WoW players.
Have to disagree with that, most MMO gamers belong in the same cloud irregardless of settings. There will be some level of subscription cannibalism involved whenever a new major MMO comes out.

I think the bigger difference of community are between the monthly fee sub paying ones and the Free to play + microtransaction ones. Bridging the two communities would probably help bring in more subscription than just staying within the monthly fee model.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
Unfortunately I think that's a big limitation with MMO's and balance. If it was a true sandbox (I'm not sure how it was in SWG this is more an Oblivion style example), you'd end up with multi-class Jedi Smugglers who have decent range attacks and when things get tough, they can whip out their lightsaber for some close range action, or use force powers to achieve range again. It sounds awesome in theory, but how would you balance that against someone who, for example goes a melee/tank role. They'd have huuuuuuuuge issues of people cherry picking stuff.
SWG was a skill based model where else WoW is a class based model. In WoW, you picked a class and you are pretty much set on one or two role in traditional RPG setup (tank, dps, heal/support).

While SWG, your roles are chosen by the skill combination you have. All in all, it's still within the same old rpg combination. If Bioware is going to stick with KOTOR's ruleset, i think we ll end up getting a tier class model where you start off with a basic archtype the multi class into other sub archtype.

In terms of balancing, I think it's easier to stick with class based system cause combinations of skills are more constrained and easier to balance against others. I
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Old 2009-06-07, 13:45   Link #47
krisslanza
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The real moral here is PvP makes gamers cry about unbalancing. Fact of life right there.
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Old 2009-06-07, 23:55   Link #48
Shinoto
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
The real moral here is PvP makes gamers cry about unbalancing. Fact of life right there.
Bit of a mistake

A game with PvP and PvE makes gamers cry for balance in the force
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Old 2009-06-08, 05:36   Link #49
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
I say its almost a certainty that if they go with set classes they will have customization options within the class similar to WoW or old school D&D (I really need another example game.. um The Witcher?) that will let the player follow a path they like though. But maybe they'll have some little innovative way to improve class customization which wont rape the balance of the game as a whole. (Un)fortunately (depending on your POV) 'talent trees' for classes in MMO's seem to have become all the rage these days - blame WoW? True sandbox games are just too hard to balance and don't inspire variety (which is a bit of a paradox really when you think about it).

Anyway I'm sure they have come up with a method that incorporates aspects of their previous successes into an MMO mold to allow for some level of individuality between players. It just hasn't been explained/revealed properly yet.
From what interviews have revealed so far, it seems that they are going to implement something similar to KotoR, in that skills don't relate to combat alone. In one of the interviews about the smuggler class, it was described that you could be the Lando style pretty boy who can talk himself out of problems if you build your character right, or you could go for the brawler type who makes his way out with his blaster. But as the dev put it "Don't expect that pickup line to work as well then"

Now this is very vague, but this does seem like they're mixing the feat system and the skill system into a new system that focuses on both in combat and out of combat elements of the game. I can't wait to hear more details on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Have to disagree with that, most MMO gamers belong in the same cloud irregardless of settings. There will be some level of subscription cannibalism involved whenever a new major MMO comes out.

I think the bigger difference of community are between the monthly fee sub paying ones and the Free to play + microtransaction ones. Bridging the two communities would probably help bring in more subscription than just staying within the monthly fee model.
I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. While I do agree that there will be some level of cannibalism, the main reason WoW became such a smashing hit was not because it cannibalized of other MMO's, but because it drew in an enormous clout of people who had never played MMO's before.

I imagine TOR will have a similar effect, though not of the same scale as WoW did, because there are a lot of sci-fi fans out there who simply aren't interested in fantasy MMO's. Just look at EVE, which despite being a relatively unknown game manages to truck along just fine on the few sci-fi fans that know of its existence.
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Old 2009-06-08, 07:16   Link #50
Kyero Fox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoto View Post
Bit of a mistake

A game with PvP and PvE makes gamers cry for balance in the force
oh god, I can already see the stupid things people are gonna say if the classes are unballanced
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Old 2009-06-08, 08:46   Link #51
Jazzrat
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Gamers' whine about class balance is predictable.

Class A is OP, pls nerf.
Class B is underpowered, does dev hates Class B?
Please fix Class B or I'll quit.
--- written by Class B player.
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Old 2009-06-08, 08:53   Link #52
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Yeah, which is why Jedi and Sith won't be inherently more powerful then any other class. It's just not good for balance.

Many people will be disappointed by that, but the sooner people realise it is needed for game balance the happier people will be.

But whinging is inevitable, especially if the game has any form of PvP - which, it will...
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Old 2009-06-08, 11:52   Link #53
Ithekro
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There is an old rule in Star Wars...unless you have the Force, numbers, overwhelming firepower, or surprise....don't take on a Force User. You will loose every time otherwise. A weak Jedi verse battle droids or troopers...ten to one an you are good. Stronger Jedi Padawans and Knights, 100 to 1. Powerful Jedi Masters 1,000 to 1.

Now if you got skills and firepower, (say like bounty hunters) you might be able to take on a Jedi one on one. But most everyone else? No. Not really a fair fight unless you have numbers, firepower, or surprise on your side.
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Old 2009-06-09, 11:29   Link #54
Kyral
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I found some little more info about the E3 presentation:

-here-
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Old 2009-06-09, 13:14   Link #55
jonli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyral View Post
I found some little more info about the E3 presentation:

-here-
Hm, this somewhat worries me.

They say that people who have played KOTOR would definitely feel at home "GAMEPLAY" wise in TOR. Although I enjoyed KOTOR very much, I would really prefer a different kind of combat system for TOR.

I also recall one of the developers claiming that they're going to incorporate a cover system for the Bounty Hunter class, saying that they've never seen a game that can actually implement a proper covering system (challenging gears?). But if TOR is going to have a battle system like KOTOR i wonder how the covering system would factor into the game (it better not be just a stats boost).
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Old 2009-06-09, 13:32   Link #56
Keroko
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There are many things you can imply by saying players will 'feel at home' and it does not at all refer to the combat being the same. For example, it has already been confirmed that TOR won't have auto attacks, Sith moves have been reported to work akin to a combo point system and the aforementioned cover system (which is for the smugglers by the way, not the bounty hunters). The cover system has been reported to do more than just give a stat boost, there seem to be moves where a smuggler needs to be in cover to use them.

TOR's combat system is going to be far from the same as KotoR's, but that doesn't mean you can't feel at home. Some moves have been reported to make a comeback (force jump, for example) and when you get close enemies don't just keep shooting but actually whip out blades of their own. Just like in KotoR.
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Old 2009-06-11, 01:28   Link #57
Jaden
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About the class balance...

The power of force users would have declined because of the continuous wars. Masters were killed and lore was lost. Yet the jedi and sith keep recruiting more, so eventually it comes down to chucking some recruit a lightsaber and telling them "K, you're a jedi now."

The ones that take 1000 droids to outnumber would be some NPCs few and far, like that sith lord in the cinematic.
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Old 2009-07-17, 17:40   Link #58
Keroko
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*digs up thread* well, this one seems to have gotten a little buried, didn't it? Here's an update worth the digging though, a video documentary about the voice acting giving not only juicy info, but also showing in game footage.

Go get the juicy stuff.

That Sith character's voice is going on my 'list of possible voices I'll pick' :3

This documentary also indirectly answers one of the questions regarding party dialog, namely the 'who gets to talk' question. If you note the bottom left part of the screen, whenever options are selected, there seems to be a random background roll, and the one with the highest roll 'wins' and gets to talk what he selected.

I find this a very nice solution.
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Old 2009-07-18, 20:33   Link #59
Ithekro
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That's a lot of voice work. I hope the format isn't too "on the rails" I like exploration and not always being forced to go one way or another in a storyline. At least not all at one time.
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Old 2009-07-18, 22:48   Link #60
Kyero Fox
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sense its Pretty much KOTOR3 it will prob be less free open like SwG but it should have a decent amount.
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