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Old 2009-07-14, 23:42   Link #201
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Another good example would be Higurashi. The girl with the sniper rifle is reminiscent of Rena's multiple pics with the cleaver.

Hm? Perhaps you need to review and rethink your definition of moe. Head to the 2007 SaiMoe thread and scroll though the explanatory posts there which thoroughly explain moe and how it is used by Japanese and foreign fans alike.
You'll have to link me it because I'm unable to find it on the first page besides a wiki entry and I'm not searching through the entire thread.

If you trying to tell me that pretty much any underaged character can be considered as some sort of "MOE" then I already know this. When your generally refer to MOE to a character designs which are meant to stand out which bright color hair and overly cute designs. Kagura generally isn't that way. Her character design is generally more realistic of that of a teenage girl. It like comparing Noir character designs to something El Cazador. Both beetrain but ones character design much more laden for appeal to moe fans while shying away from more reality based and conservative designs.

Higurashi certainly isn't a noir-esque show. Yes, they have a lot of killing but it not about a crime drama nor does that any of the elements of the genre besides the killing. All in all the problem is mainly a shift in protagonists from a older male lead to a teenage girl which seems throw the show for a loop. Like I said it can work but I don't know if I'll enjoy such big changes.
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Old 2009-07-14, 23:48   Link #202
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Well technically by the most common definition of the term "moe" refers more to a subjective state of feeling than the actual objective character appearance. Even realistic looking characters can be made to look "moe" under the right portrayal and circumstances.
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Old 2009-07-14, 23:57   Link #203
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Well technically by the most precise definition of the term "moe" refers more to a subjective state of feeling than the actual objective character appearance. Even realistic looking characters can be made to look "moe" under the right portrayal and circumstances.
Basically them anything and everything is and can be moe so the term is basically useless. I can see that. Forget MOE, I'm just referring to the fact her character design does not fit for me. Not only that the age shift will clearly will be a problem with some viewers as similar is a Hei type character became the next protagonist of K-ON!.
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Old 2009-07-15, 00:17   Link #204
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SaiMoe 2007 Thread
A brief description of moe in the context of SaiMoe
For a more general description, I suggest looking through other posts a few pages before and after the one above.

References:
http://synchroom.wikispaces.com/SaiMoe2007

And yes, moe is not usually attributed to mere character design. You could say that cute characters are only a subset of moe characters.

Plus, moe is highly subjective. Take an in-series example: I, for one, see Amber (in all her forms) as a few orders of magnitude more moe than Kiko.
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Old 2009-07-15, 00:18   Link #205
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Moe (萌え?, /mo.e/, pronounced "mo-eh" literally "budding", as with a plant) is a Japanese slang word originally referring to a strong interest in particular types of character in video games or anime and manga. For example, 眼鏡っ娘萌え, meganekko-moe, "glasses-girl moe", describes a person who is attracted to fictional characters with eyeglasses. "Moe!" is also used within anime fandom as an interjection referring to a character the speaker considers to be a moekko. It is even used in some anime, such as Ouran High School Host Club, Ai Kora, Lucky Star, Kaichou-wa Maid-sama!, and K-ON. There are various interpretations of what moe is today. Joseph L. Dela Pena argues that moe is a pure, protective feeling towards a character[1],
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Old 2009-07-15, 00:57   Link #206
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Exactly, so now that I've realized that Moe is a basically a subjective and useless term. Now I go back to my original claim of not liking her character design for this show. I don't care if you consider it MOE or not. It does not feel right for the show especially as a protagonist. The age and gender also change leaves a lot to be desired. I'd prefer Hei but I'll certainly check it out when it comes out. I don't think I'm wrong for fearing such a drastic change will cause me to dislike it as the first season and it characters were much more my taste in shows.

You can tell me how much it worked it other shows but honestly I found Higurashi to be sub-par and not similar to DtB. I didn't like the characters and didn't care if they died and didn't care how many weird faces they made. It wasn't my style. I prefer Umineko so far and it's character designs.

Honestly though you can pull out all the technical definition but that when fans refer to MOE often they are referring to a specific character design ala Higurashi, and K-ON!. Such terms like this are almost useless because of the ambiguity and faggotry associated with them. You knew basically what I was referring to in character design pulling out all this technical nonsense was a waste of time.
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Old 2009-07-15, 02:22   Link #207
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Moe is indeed a subjective and ambiguous term, but it's not entirely useless. Just like what one person describes as sexy another person might not - we wouldn't say that the word is useless because we all have a common idea of what it usually implies. The same with moe - it usually implies cute & childish female characters, often with submissive personalities. You're right in saying that character designs can be said to be moe like K-ON and Lucky Star, but what I was worried about was people seeing a young female lead and worrying about the show being focused around 'moe' which certainly might not be the case. Even if she has a cute character design (although I'd argue that it isn't of the same moe style as K-ON or Lucky Star at all), there's no reason the show can't still have dark and engaging stories. There's certainly no reason for anyone to be disgusted by her being the lead character.

But it's fair enough if you're worried the show might not have the same tone or credibility. But it's too early for people to start getting caught up in an outrage over it turning into a moe-fest. Our new girl could be a badass. But if she starts running around in cat-ears screaming 'nii-pa' constantly then it would be a valid reason to get upset!

"Hei would have never worn cat-ears!"
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Old 2009-07-15, 14:40   Link #208
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I have absolutely no problem with the new lead.In fact I'm really interested in how they'll make her fit in the big picture,since DtB is a kind of a dark anime.I said earlier my view on what might happen so I won't write it again.And what's all that moe-fest thing about.Come on,we got a couple of pictures, one of wich showed a cute girl.I think no one complaid about anything moe when the first poster of DtB s2 came out.People complained that they wanted Hei as the main character.In the first poster with the sniper rifle she looks cool and I see nothing out of the ordinary with her character design there.
And you really can't understand anything from promotional posters.Take Code Geass for example.There were official promotional posters with CC which could make you think the show is almost all about ecchi and big mechs...and we all know that's really not what it was about.
The thread got a bit off topic though.I agree that this moe has got nothing to do with K-ON or LS and such moe
Also we can't say anything about DtB yet.We can speculate about what might happen and how all the new characters might be involved with Hei.Nothing more for the time being
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Old 2009-07-15, 15:52   Link #209
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Well, wasn't CG really about ecchi and mechas?

On topic:
The girl looks cute and as long as Hei is in DtB it will rock.
Still if he isn't I will definitely watch it. Who cares about moe anyway?
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:06   Link #210
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@On-topic: I am looking forward to the second season.. I wonder if they will finally do something about the star-less sky. There wasn't a proper ending to the first season. Most of all, I hope Nana-sama will be returning as one of the main seiyuu..

@Off-topic: Those CG posters were probably to gather attention.. It gives people the idea that its an ecchi anime with mecha elements. However, what it really is has nothing to do with those posters at all.
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Old 2009-07-16, 13:35   Link #211
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The new lead is a badass 13yo sniper. Yes!

I don't see what the prob with her is yet. We had a whole season of Yin and I bet few complained about her. At least this one will hopefully have more expressions (emotions) being a redhead in an anime.

Gunslinger Girl had loads of moe assasin chicks.
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Old 2009-07-16, 18:32   Link #212
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I would have argued with the people (person?) who are obsessing over a single "moe" picture, but it's obvious they don't care about the presentation in an anime, only the age of the characters. Not interested anymore.

Here's hoping this new character will have more personality to her, so she won't be as boring to watch as Yin was (to me, of course). I'm sure Tensai Okamura will pull it off well either way, though. I honestly haven't seen a single anime that he's been involved with that I didn't enjoy.
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Old 2009-07-16, 21:32   Link #213
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by AHH View Post
I would have argued with the people (person?) who are obsessing over a single "moe" picture, but it's obvious they don't care about the presentation in an anime, only the age of the characters. Not interested anymore.

Here's hoping this new character will have more personality to her, so she won't be as boring to watch as Yin was (to me, of course). I'm sure Tensai Okamura will pull it off well either way, though. I honestly haven't seen a single anime that he's been involved with that I didn't enjoy.
Those pointing out shows like Gunslinger Girl, Higurashi, etc are missing the point completely. Yes, I too am a big fan of Femme Fatales but those shows are fairly different in both genre and focus.

DtB is much more a cop drama dealing with shady underworld workings and conspiracies. This is a far cry from shows like Gunslinger girl who focused in more on the characters tragic situation and Higurashi which is focused on murder solving and mystery. The main characters that pushed the action were Hei, Huang, Misaki, and November in S1. It seems to be fairly hard to imagine a teenage being able to be a protagonist in such a series. It's not one where you'd normal have one and for good reason. It's hard for such a character to not be overshadowed by adults. If we look at somewhat more similar show like Requiem of the Phantom(not entirely just can't think of a better one at the moment), the older adults do most of the pushing of plot and conspiracies but the focus of the show is more on the characters emotions. Can DtB do something like that? Sure, but I would prefer it not. It seems unnecessary shift when DtB pretty much has it own identity set up to change to something else.

Saying I don't care about the presentation makes me fairly certain you either didn't read my past statements fully or lack basic reading comprehension. I stated a number of times I'll wait for the show to come out to judge but I have doubts about the current shift. You don't have to agree with me, I don't really care if you do or don't, but don't try to misrepresent my words.

I could go even more into my reasoning behind worrying about this change but I doubt most will take anything from it beyond I'm hating on a character design or character age. I'm not.
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Old 2009-07-17, 03:24   Link #214
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DtB is much more a cop drama dealing with shady underworld workings and conspiracies. This is a far cry from shows like Gunslinger girl who focused in more on the characters tragic situation and Higurashi which is focused on murder solving and mystery. The main characters that pushed the action were Hei, Huang, Misaki, and November in S1. It seems to be fairly hard to imagine a teenage being able to be a protagonist in such a series. It's not one where you'd normal have one and for good reason. It's hard for such a character to not be overshadowed by adults. If we look at somewhat more similar show like Requiem of the Phantom(not entirely just can't think of a better one at the moment), the older adults do most of the pushing of plot and conspiracies but the focus of the show is more on the characters emotions. Can DtB do something like that? Sure, but I would prefer it not. It seems unnecessary shift when DtB pretty much has it own identity set up to change to something else.
Actually, now that you mention Phantom, I'm reminded of how Cal is being handled in that. She's just a little girl, but her introduction to the story hasn't really changed what it's about, and it hasn't changed the feel of the show either. Despite, of course, the fact that she's become a main character who is getting an amount of screen time and focus second only to the actual main character of the show. And that brings up another point. People keep saying that she's the new main character (though I still haven't found out where they got that, maybe it's because I'm not trying to read any of the scans), but I find it highly unlikely that she'll actually be the main character. Hei was too popular to just be thrown out like that, and guess who wasn't even in any of the pictures related to the second season until recently? Yeah, this Russian girl.

Obviously everything could go wrong, but I think things are stacking up in favor of it going well. It helps that anyone in their right mind would try to keep the second season of an anime in the same vein as the first season so as to avoid alienating fans.

Also, that comment about you not caring about presentation came from when you said you preferred Umineko's style to Higurashi's (and so far the Umineko anime has had pretty bad presentation in comparison since it's rushing things so much). It occurred to me a few hours after I posted that you've probably read the actual visual novels, which... don't have this problem.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:56   Link #215
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I can't wait to see the 2nd season of DTB. I think the 13 year old girl isn't going to live pass the 2 episode like many of the other characters in the first series didn't. For example: Chiaki, Havoc, Nick, and so many others.

I believe the reason why the creators of DTB had put the 13 year old girl on the pictures is because we already know about Hei, Yin, and the other characters, and because they wanted to show us, (their fans,) some new characters.

There have been a few Moe characters in DTB, like Kiko, Mai, Bai, Yin, (in my opinion due to her western style dress,) and, yes, Amber. I can't see why we can't have a 13 year old, gunslinging moe girl in the show. Lol.

I do believe we will see Amber since she had said she had seen many different versions of the world. I don't think, just because she died in episode 25, we won't see her again. I say we will since she can mess with time, and she had "seen" it. My question on the matter is when?

Until then, I await for the series to come out and spy on pictures of it.
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Old 2009-07-18, 19:27   Link #216
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I don't see the wee lass getting killed in the first couple of eps, she's been shown to much attention to do so plus no way are you gonna show us a wee lass that seems to be using a anit-tank rifle as a sniper rifle, which shouts awesome and have her killed straight away. Theres too much fun to be had!

plus if Hei is around, I think it would make for some interesting if not mildly amusing interactions

I got no probs with the setup atm, altho thats all at face value so if its really still Hei then YAY but if its really the wee lass then ok fine
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Old 2009-07-19, 00:04   Link #217
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All this fear is giving new meaning to: "lolis are the most powerful weapon invented".

"Be Afraid, be very afraid!" =P hehe

-

.
Not to mention two of the most powerful contractors in DtB were lolis. Or ended up being one in Amber's case.

Suou definitely has a rep to follow up on now.
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Old 2009-07-19, 05:54   Link #218
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Spoiler for chara:


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Old 2009-07-19, 07:17   Link #219
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Ok that's cool ^^. Amber is in he character design sheet.Not such a big surprise but it looks like she'll be in the second season for sure.She didn't have enough screentime in the first anyways and she was a very interesting scharacer which I'm sure had a many stories to tell,especially since she was a time traveler.

I still think that the new girl will be one of the main characters.There's no reason why she wouldn't be.Maybe Hei will have a similar position to Misaki in the first.He still will be a main character just not the leading one.Or at least the first couple of episodes.

If they kill the new girl in the first few episodes all the new characters that have been introduced will be left behind since their only conenction to Hei will be the girl.I also think she's there to make the anime more interesting.If you think about it Hei left the sindicate and ran away to Russia(or eventually ended up there) so now he has no reason to kill or do anything bad for that matter.Meaning he might just live in a little house somewhere with Yin.Bai said it in the first season-he doesn't really want to kill anyone.So when he has no reason he would do it anymore.Of course I'm guessing he'll fend off people from the sindicate trying to kill him.

And that leaves us with the girl that eventually ends up meating Hei and that event would probably lead him to be a ruthless contractor once again.I don't see how else they'll pull that one off.
Plus now that we've seen Amber in the character design for the S2 I'm guessing the story will be really interesting and that little girl will play a key part in it.After all she is a new character that seems to be one of the main ones,she has a huge anti tank rifle (looks like the Russian anti tank rifle used in WWII but oh well) will have a important interaction with Hei and the action takes place in Russia where she lives.So I think that makes her a pretty important character to the second series

Oh and when you look at the promotionla poster which was the Moe one do you see Amber's hair in the bottom right corner?Guess she's involved with that girl as well ^^
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Old 2009-07-19, 10:43   Link #220
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She is not Amber... her eyes are blue... Amber has... amber eyes.
But i still want to see her coming back and steal some kisses from Hei.... maybe this time he will give them to her by his own.
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