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Old 2009-07-20, 06:38   Link #2221
synaesthetic
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Keroko's spot on. If Nanoha's "nonlethal" Divine Busters followed physics, they wouldn't be able to blow through walls, bulkheads, metal plate, thick concrete and remain nonlethal. After all, a human body is quite a bit squishier than building materials.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:10   Link #2222
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The complete lack of any form of canonical support?

Seriously Ark, I am done with accepting your theories as fact when you completely ignore any of my queries for canonical support for them.
If by canonical support, you mean actually watching the show, well, the scenes are open to all!

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Midcrete, the Cradle being made of mana, you keep throwing them around because they help your side of the debate but when push comes to shove they are still theories.
Which you have great trouble poking real holes into. If a theory explains the observations, you better have a very good excuse for denying it.

Or do you think real scientific theories are taken from convenient sources that state things?

If a real scientist is told that the only big weakness of his theory is that he doesn't have previously published literature supporting him, he's going to say "Great! My Nobel Prize is near!", not admit defeat. Heck, even if literature is against him if he's sure of his observations he's going to fight back, and win his Nobel Prize.

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Find some quote or booklet page stating midcrete is weak and the Cradle is made out of mana, then come back.
Might as well say I don't have it. But that's not a big problem on my side, because I never really counted on them. If they say what I am saying, great. If not, fine. If they say the opposite to what's going on the screen (like Ep7 A's description of DBE), the writer obviously has a warped sense of description.

By the same token though, you have just insisted that what happened was a violation of physics. Since booklet quotes are your acceptable source, please find the quote or booklet page which explicitly says that what happened on the Cradle is a violation of physics. Remember, you can't analyze, use logic, or use observations (your own suggestion). You must use a booklet or concede

Or how about an easier one. Find a quote or booklet page that explicitly says that Type IV drones were present in Ep25 fighting redshirts. I'm pretty sure there are none, but who knows you might suprise me...

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Wrong analogy. Try this: Place three cans in a row, now grab a gun. Now try and shoot all three cans in one shot. However, your bullet cannot damage the middle can, though it can knock it down. The other two cans need to be penetrated by the bullet.

That is what magic does.
If matter is really one solid block with no gaps between them, your analogy might have a point. Unfortunately, your inability to grasp the true form of matter has clouded your ability to understand why my analogy is carefully selected and your analogy is just that of a 3rd grade student.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:14   Link #2223
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Pedantry gets you nowhere. ^^;

The issue is it's a fictional story, it isn't real, and it most certainly isn't science. There is no reason whatsoever to treat it as science. It makes things harder on us as fic writers to consider it science--it is easier to plausibly portray magic than it is to satisfy the diehard tech nerds with real-world scientific explanation!

What I use in place of trying to explain magic with science is rather simple. Don't explain it, lest you wind up looking rather foolish. Just concentrate on kicking ass with it. MGLN has never been an overly technical or plausible series--it is the unholy offspring of a magical girl anime and a Super Robot anime.

Neither of these fields lend themselves particularly well to the realm of hard sci-fi.

The short version: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is not Planetes. There's no reason to treat it as such.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:19   Link #2224
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Go write harry potter fics then. Magic IS magic, but Nanoha sticks by magic working within limits and technology. Why else do you think a whole majority of the characters in the series uses technological contraptions as mediums for their magic instead of, say, a stick of elder wood with a Thestral tail hair embedded in it?


Also, inb4 NANOHA IS SERIOUS F*CK*NG BUSINESS.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:22   Link #2225
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While I agree that IRL theories/physics don't work, since it's frikking fiction/anime, Nanoverse has its own share of science that explains magic or is a part of it. Going against it with "It's magic" would essentially go against canon. Nanoha is both fantasy and sci-fi, each of them having explanations.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:28   Link #2226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
Go write harry potter fics then. Magic IS magic, but Nanoha sticks by magic working within limits and technology. Why else do you think a whole majority of the characters in the series uses technological contraptions as mediums for their magic instead of, say, a stick of elder wood with a Thestral tail hair embedded in it?
Rule of Cool. MGLN is very similar in respects to Super Robot shows where wildly implausible things happen simply because it's awesome. It's just a stylistic choice in a heavily stylized genre. Trying to make it fit real-world physics is silly. Square peg in round hole and all that.

There is an explanation to why Nena resists the effects of magic, but it's not something I wanted to bandy about since it's relevant to the story's plot. I ended up spelling it out above and yet everyone ignored me in favor of arguing about whether magic in MGLN adheres to the laws of reality (which it doesn't).

Again, Nena's magic resistance comes from the fact that her Linker Core is different (referred to as "inverse" in the story itself) than most and thus she has a chance to negate spells cast upon her.

If one must really use a scientific analogy, I would liken it to destructive interference in active noise-canceling headphones. By countering the ambient waveforms with an identical wave 180 degrees out of phase, the result is a cancellation effect.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:29   Link #2227
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Pedantry gets you nowhere. ^^;

The issue is it's a fictional story, it isn't real, and it most certainly isn't science. There is no reason whatsoever to treat it as science. It makes things harder on us as fic writers to consider it science--it is easier to plausibly portray magic than it is to satisfy the diehard tech nerds with real-world scientific explanation!
So it is fine to not keep explicitly throwing out scientific explanations - besides you'll probably blow it sooner or later and get pillored. But do remember plausibility is ultimately based on comparing what's in your fic to what's on the screen, and that places value on getting things right. I'm not saying you should blow your piggy bank of free time on it - you'll be unable to find time writing. But do make some effort, take advantage of those who are more dedicated to finding those positions, and don't call them pedantic or anal - they are enjoying the show their own way.

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What I use in place of trying to explain magic with science is rather simple. Don't explain it, lest you wind up looking rather foolish. Just concentrate on kicking ass with it.
I'll agree with the "Don't Explain" part - most people's mistake is to explain it out loud (and blow it). On the other hand, if you can pull off a good explanation, you can win some accoldades for having done your homework.

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MGLN has never been an overly technical or plausible series--it is the unholy offspring of a magical girl anime and a Super Robot anime.
Don't forget the H-game!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So terminating your existence in one place and remaking it in another is physically possible? Sign me up for a course.
Probably, one of those wormhole theories came to pass.

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Yuuno. Ferret form.
Easy. Mana has mass. Mass (mana) was used to create human. BAM, no E=mc^2 necessary.

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Explain, last I checked the existence of alternate dimensions is still little more than a theory.
Well, so that theory came to pass. Not a big objection here!

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... Point, except for selective kinetic damage. It blatantly ignores Newtons first law of motion on several occasions, passing through bodies and ignoring the force applied to it. Heck, Divine Buster Extension is literally stated to be able to ignore this law.
Quote:
ディバインバスター・エクステンション – Divine Buster ・ Extension
A 「Bombardment spell」 fired and effected from Mana.
Mana concentrated to high density allows the target to be hit directly at long range, with no decrease in power over distance.

The first offensive spell that Nanoha memorized, after 10 years it has remained one of her favorites, and has also become one of her specialty spells.

No loss of power over distance. I suppose I don't have to explain to you what this means? Unlimited. Effin. Range. Seriously, why didn't I realize this before? There go all the 'magic has short range' debates.
IIRC, most of the "magic has short range" debates were on the ergonomics of the weapons and the horribly slow speed of almost all of the ammunition, which comes way before the attenuation problem...

The quote itself does not say anything about it not attenuating at all regardless of the distance, without an energy feed (Divine Buster is basically continuous emission to impact). The best interpretation is that it has a low decay rate, so with Nanoha feeding it it can suffer no decrease in end power within a distance regarded by the author as "long" (we can get a clue of that by comparing things to other times the author made similar claims and then seeing how long things actually were). Nobody wrote any guarantees at all about what happens once the author's idea of "long" is exceeded - maybe it falls to zero in a single meter.

Should you insist on saying that the quote means it is 100% efficient in traverse and suffer no loss, which is a physical impossibility by the way, I'll just calmly point out it is GLOWING, which even in the absence of anything else means it is not losing zero energy. I know you have a low opinion of visuals, but short of saying that DB really doesn't glow observations truimph dialogue (actually, only your interpretation of it, but that's what will happen if you push).

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Oh yes, I just remembered, the Cradle violated the first law of thermodynamics with its reactor core. An artificial and by all known means eternal source of energy, self sustaining to the point where it can even regenerate itself.
And where is this "eternal source" of energy capability demonstrated? Given that the whole observed activation was all of 3 hours...

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-07-20 at 08:07.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:37   Link #2228
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I still have a theory :/

Bullets can be made to penetrate armor, but not flesh, so it'll enter the body and do considerably more damage than it did the armor.

Additionally, if magic can have its polarity of lethality altered, why not while its in use? fire the shot, blow the floors through, when the last floor is blown, swap lethality polarity. She knew exactly where she was, the timing is easy to calculate.

And Ark, yeah yeah matter is empty, but you need to explain why it matters. http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-D...rk-56249.shtml

And Keroko, your analogy is flawed if for only that the 'third can' was not blown in nanoha. The floor below Quattro was undamaged. (rewatching...)

Hmm, fine obliterated. Hadn't seen any replies yet, but I'll mention their concerns. Didn't appear to be a direct shot on her, magic doesn't move at the speed of light, so she had time to get crushed by the outer edge of the blast and theoretically take less damage?

You know, I'm not even confident I know what direction Nanoha fired her shot.
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Last edited by itanshi1; 2009-07-20 at 07:59.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:43   Link #2229
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Most MGLN fans don't even know Toraha exists. ^^;

And no, I'm not explicitly picking on people for being meticulous about this sort of thing. I just believe that when it comes to writing, one should focus on the story and not so much on infodumps.

After all, the story will be told from the perspective of Teana, Fate and Nena--two criminal investigators and combat-type mages and a magic-dead mercenary. None of them are especially learned in the inner workings of magic--Nena perhaps least of all. She has practical knowledge of magic... how to counter it, how to avoid it, how to withstand it, but not necessarily how it works.

Fate and Teana are similar--they know it better than Nena does, since they use it and have come up with their own spells and variant applications, but to use something doesn't imply that you have the knowledge to create that something. It's doubtful that any of these three know enough to infodump concerning magic with any kind of authority. ^^;
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:46   Link #2230
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Ironically I just finished a similar debate over at the Strike Witches thread, except this time I was the one using visuals and Tk was using the novel. To say the two contradicted eachother on multiple occasions would be... an understatement. In the end we decided to discard the anime and stick with the novel, as the novel offered actual explanations on the situations while anime mostly did the things they did because it was either cool or easier to animate, and still made it subject to interpretation.

My point? Written sources and dialog > observations of animation. Ark, you see Nanoha blowing a hole in the Cradle while leaving Quattro unharmed and go on a tangent of mana particles and fermions. I see the same scene and say it was magic damage.

Now if we judge by the interpretations of the scene alone, neither of us is right or wrong. After all, that is why they are interpretations. So we need another source to confirm our interpretations.

Enter written sources and dialog.

And this is why I keep asking for canonical support of a written source. An interpretation of a scene followed by a theory of how it worked is not canonical support, it's a theory. I do not see why I should believe your theory to be the right one if you have no way to back it up.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:46   Link #2231
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Most MGLN fans don't even know Toraha exists. ^^;

And no, I'm not explicitly picking on people for being meticulous about this sort of thing. I just believe that when it comes to writing, one should focus on the story and not so much on infodumps.

After all, the story will be told from the perspective of Teana, Fate and Nena--two criminal investigators and combat-type mages and a magic-dead mercenary. None of them are especially learned in the inner workings of magic--Nena perhaps least of all. She has practical knowledge of magic... how to counter it, how to avoid it, how to withstand it, but not necessarily how it works.

Fate and Teana are similar--they know it better than Nena does, since they use it and have come up with their own spells and variant applications, but to use something doesn't imply that you have the knowledge to create that something. It's doubtful that any of these three know enough to infodump concerning magic with any kind of authority. ^^;
1st, we have said it doesn't matter if it is said or not: we (or at least I) am talking about YOU knowing how it works. your readers don't need to.

2nd: what do you think most of their class on magics were? why do you think Vivio has classes too? why do you think Nanoha and most mage are *extremely* good at maths? they may not be as good as Shari/Ami, but they *are* aware of how it works, and *are* able to tweak things.
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Old 2009-07-20, 07:52   Link #2232
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
And Keroko, your analogy is flawed if for only that the 'third can' was not blown in nanoha. The floor below Quattro was undamaged. (rewatching...)
Yes it was:

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Old 2009-07-20, 08:02   Link #2233
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Yeah, i edited my post after i rewatched it as I noted I would ^^;
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Old 2009-07-20, 08:07   Link #2234
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Sorry, reflex.

Of course, magic also seems the be able to work in the opposite way, as shown by Diabolic Emission, which leaves buildings untouched but is dangerous to its targets.
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Old 2009-07-20, 08:10   Link #2235
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Nanoha seems as a series to have the tendency to portray the characters fearing things that aren't that scary.

Diabolic emission? She'd of done better if she punched that shield. http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8644/shieldw.jpg

Was that SLB that I'm thinking of?
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Old 2009-07-20, 08:50   Link #2236
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ironically I just finished a similar debate over at the Strike Witches thread, except this time I was the one using visuals and Tk was using the novel. To say the two contradicted eachother on multiple occasions would be... an understatement.
I've heard that the novel Neurou used MGs while of course the anime ones used particle beams (I think they wanted to make lasers but generally the best anime can muster observationally is a medium velocity particle beam).

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In the end we decided to discard the anime and stick with the novel, as the novel offered actual explanations on the situations while anime mostly did the things they did because it was either cool or easier to animate, and still made it subject to interpretation.
Well, even counting the fact you eventually conceded to Tk, I find it enormously amusing that you chose to use visuals to begin with. Hmm... if you have that little faith in visuals, why did you not just bend the moment Tk brought up his novel?

Besides, you seem to be dealing in a situation where there are clear contradictions. Most of our debates, there are none.

Quote:
Ark, you see Nanoha blowing a hole in the Cradle while leaving Quattro unharmed and go on a tangent of mana particles and fermions. I see the same scene and say it was magic damage.
Did the fact that those two explanations are equivalent blow past your mind? The only problem is that you didn't really place enough thought into the problem to really tell whether it was physically irreconcilable, while I did a bit more thought and figured there probably isn't such a big problem. I don't mind you not doing too in-depth an analysis, but to insist it must be physically irrecconcilable while stopping your thought at the "magic damage" level just calls for a response.

As for theories. Here's what you do. Look at my theory, see if it matches up with the episodes themselves. If it does, its a valid theory - the only question is whether it is the best one. Now, go check the books to see if there are other theories. If it says nothing on the matter, take it unless you can come up with something better.

If it says something on the matter, compare it with what's on the screen. If it is not what's happening, the theory has a problem. We start debating if both theories are valid, but IMO that doesn't happen very often - I'm too lazy myself to make my own theories if a half-workable one is in canon...
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Old 2009-07-20, 12:24   Link #2237
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I thought it was established that nanoha uses the 'it looks cool' method and not magic nor technology, so half brained theories are a bit flimsily applied based on convenience of the theory maker :P
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Old 2009-07-20, 15:09   Link #2238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
I thought it was established that nanoha uses the 'it looks cool' method and not magic nor technology, so half brained theories are a bit flimsily applied based on convenience of the theory maker :P
This.

/thread
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Old 2009-07-20, 19:02   Link #2239
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
This.

/thread
In your wildest dreams maybe...

This is the TECH thread. We are powered by:



Oh, and STILL, nobody is able to defeat Thermodynamics here.

Suck it Red... er... Blue... er... which team are you on?
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Old 2009-07-20, 19:18   Link #2240
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Viva la red team!
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