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Old 2009-07-17, 19:53   Link #81
tjalorak
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Originally Posted by Trans-Fat View Post
I'm still a bit confused about the scoring on Saki's tsumo after 3 kans. Did she get the 2,000/24,000 points shown in ch49 or 8000 points from everyone in ch48? Also, what yakus did she have for that hand?
Should be 8000 all as she was east for that. She got sankantsu and rinshan kaihou for sure. Don't know about the rest (I'll edit this if I go back and look at it).

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Originally Posted by Trans-Fat View Post
So far no one knows about the relationship between Saki and Teru besides Nodoka right? I would assume that Hisa might know, and also Fujita. I am also guessing that Mihoko (whatever the name of the captain from Kazakoshi) suspect it, and also Koromo. I am also guessing that Koromo played against and lost to Teru once before.
No one knows other than Nodoka. It's hard to tell who suspects. Mihoko so far seems to only indicate that Saki's a monster based upon her records (in the anime) but in the manga, it did seem to focus on "Miyanaga" - the last name - so she might suspect. Fujita only indicates that Saki's blessed by the tiles as well but hasn't indicated whether she thinks Saki is related to Teru. No idea about Hisa or Koromo.

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Originally Posted by Trans-Fat View Post
At this point (up to chapter 51), are the reporters still doubting any relationships between the two? I cannot read Japanese well, so I have no idea what the reporters are talking about.
They're in denial but the photographer has posited a theory of a possible relationship.

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Originally Posted by Trans-Fat View Post
Also, Fujita mentioned in previous episode that there had been 3 breakout players in previous years, and 3 siluhuttes. One being Teru, the other being Koromo. Who was the other one?
Kagoshima's Jindai.
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Old 2009-07-17, 21:43   Link #82
paraalso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trans-Fat View Post
I'm still a bit confused about the scoring on Saki's tsumo after 3 kans. Did she get the 2,000/24,000 points shown in ch49 or 8000 points from everyone in ch48? Also, what yakus did she have for that hand?
The hand shown in the chapter 51 flashback looks like:
San-An-Kou (3 concealed pungs or kans) 2 han
San-Kan-Tsu (3 kans) 2 han
Toi-Toi (all pung/kan) 2 han
Tan-Yao (all simples) 1 han
Rin-Shan 1 han

That makes 8 han, which is enough for a Baiman.
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Old 2009-07-18, 10:08   Link #83
cynicalicious
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Okay, I'm confused about two things.

1.) Looking at Saki's initial hand in c. 51, if she were to go for a 13 orphans hand like some are speculating, wouldn't it be painfully obvious that she was going for that hand after the 7th round of discards? (Just dumping that pon of 2 pins alone would be highly suspicious.)

She would have to dump the 2, 2, 2, 3, 5 of pins, the 3 sou and the 4 man. 怪しい! (Of course, you can't see her discards in the manga... bah!)

2.) Why would calling ron on the head of the 13 orphans change it from a single yakuman into a double yakuman? I've been looking through my books, and I can't see anything about that. (Granted, my books are pretty basic stuff.) Can someone explain how that works? I'm still new to scoring.
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Old 2009-07-18, 10:39   Link #84
emauser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynicalicious View Post
Okay, I'm confused about two things.

1.) Looking at Saki's initial hand in c. 51, if she were to go for a 13 orphans hand like some are speculating, wouldn't it be painfully obvious that she was going for that hand after the 7th round of discards? (Just dumping that pon of 2 pins alone would be highly suspicious.)

She would have to dump the 2, 2, 2, 3, 5 of pins, the 3 sou and the 4 man. 怪しい! (Of course, you can't see her discards in the manga... bah!)

2.) Why would calling ron on the head of the 13 orphans change it from a single yakuman into a double yakuman? I've been looking through my books, and I can't see anything about that. (Granted, my books are pretty basic stuff.) Can someone explain how that works? I'm still new to scoring.
1. No one said anything about it not being obvious. Besides if she discarded them in different combination for example 2 pin, 5 pin, 3 sou, 2 pin, 4 man, 3 pin, 2 pin it would be less obvious what she is waiting for. If you're smart enough I think you could pull it off.

2. Kokushi musou is generally single yakuman, but if you have each of honor tiles and terminal tiles and are waiting for any of the 13 you have in your hand (13 way wait) then it's considered double yakuman, regardless of you getting it with ron or drawing from the wall and regardless of which tile you get to complete your hand.

Last edited by emauser; 2009-07-18 at 10:40. Reason: adding sth.
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Old 2009-07-18, 11:00   Link #85
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Ahh, emauser was faster

It will be obvious for players (and for readers too, so it was ommited ) and imho it was reason for that Koromo's chill or how to call hers black aura. But if Saki really has 13-side wait on Kokushi Musou she doesn't exactly need Koromo to discard that 1 of Dots, if she had enough luck to draw 7 needed tiles in 7 round, she will draw 8th to form pair and win with tsumo double yakuman (Saki +64k, Koromo -16k, Kana -16k, Yumi -32k). Only hinderance can be some call to Koromo's discard from Yumi.

Edit: I'm beginner too, so I hope I didn't some stupid error above
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:47   Link #86
cynicalicious
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Thanks for the answers. Now I have more questions. (Since I'm usually not dealing with hands like these. lol.)

If 13 orphans is a yakuman worth 32,000 points anyway, if Saki rons on Koromo's 1-pin, even if there's no double-yakuman rule, she'll still beat Koromo by 1500 points, right? (Or am I missing something again?)

Koromo: 168,200
Saki: 105,700

If Saki takes 32,000 from Koromo:

Koromo: 136,200
Saki: 137,700

I'm asking because after looking around a bit, I saw a blog post by some pro mahjong players who keep a blog/podcast (in English no less!), and they were discussing all of the various rule variations. Double yakuman as an optional rule didn't seem to be very popular in Japan ATM. (Especially in the pro leagues.) It's more popular as part of the European rules.

Then again, they're playing the tournament in Saki with akadora... so who knows what the rules are.

I guess it's time to find an illustration somewhere of the rules held conveniently in someone's hand.
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Old 2009-07-18, 14:57   Link #87
tjalorak
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Originally Posted by cynicalicious View Post
Thanks for the answers. Now I have more questions. (Since I'm usually not dealing with hands like these. lol.)

If 13 orphans is a yakuman worth 32,000 points anyway, if Saki rons on Koromo's 1-pin, even if there's no double-yakuman rule, she'll still beat Koromo by 1500 points, right? (Or am I missing something again?)

Koromo: 168,200
Saki: 105,700

If Saki takes 32,000 from Koromo:

Koromo: 136,200
Saki: 137,700
Yes. Which is why I said the double yakuman was sort of overkill. It would be 2k points difference since they round. And I think the more important question is what their +/- would be after calculations.

Quote:
I'm asking because after looking around a bit, I saw a blog post by some pro mahjong players who keep a blog/podcast (in English no less!), and they were discussing all of the various rule variations. Double yakuman as an optional rule didn't seem to be very popular in Japan ATM. (Especially in the pro leagues.) It's more popular as part of the European rules.
Link please?

Quote:
Then again, they're playing the tournament in Saki with akadora... so who knows what the rules are.
Yeah. The rules seem a little different than normal and like Fujita-pro says in the Vice-Captain round, the tournament this year changed its rules and seems aimed at finding special / "lucky" players.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:26   Link #88
cynicalicious
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
Link please?
Oh sure. Here you go:

http://www.reachmahjong.com/home/ind...=273&Itemid=36

Thanks for the answers. I feel more enlightened now.

My groundless speculation is that Saki will just win with a plain Yakuman, just because it's more dramatic. I like the 13 orphans angle, though. In exchange, Koromo gets a new mahjong playtoy. Saki telling her that playing mahjong with her is fun stunned her, I think. lol.

Either way, it won't be the last we see of Koromo.
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Old 2009-07-18, 15:56   Link #89
Bambi
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These Kokushi Musou speculations are based only on limited informations what we have (initial hand and number of discards). Off course chance it's way off is high, but right now it match too perfrectly, even that Koromo's One of Dots match the scheme . As you said Saki's discards should be too obvious to good players and Koromo really don't need to play offensively, so I'll be surprised if she discards it, but maybe Saki's befriending speech throwed her away

But off course I'm bit biased because I really want to finish this match as fast as possible, it became bit boring after almost 3/4 year and story need to move forward

About double yakuman rules, I red somewhere (can't find it right now between my bookmarks ) that it's allowed by default, but of course we have no idea what changes they did to rules it anime.
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Old 2009-07-18, 18:20   Link #90
Bambi
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I did small research and tried to count number of tiles Saki need to change for all yakumans:

Code:
Kokushi Musou (13 Orphans) .............. 7 tiles
Chuuren Poutou (The Nine Gates) ......... 9 tiles 
Suu An Kou (Four concealed triplets) .... 6 tiles
Dai San Gen (Big three dragons) ......... 8 tiles
Shou-suushi (Four Little Winds) ......... 9 tiles
Dai-suushi (Four Big Winds) ............. Not possible
Ryuu-iisou (All Green) .................. 11 tiles 
Suu Kantsu (Four Kans) .................. 7 tiles  (not usable imho)
Tsu-iisou (All honors) .................. 10 tiles
Chinroutou (All Terminals) .............. 10 tiles
So only Kokushi Musou and Suu An Kou are available at this moment for Saki to win and if I consider Koromo is already Tenpai I don't think there will be another go around.
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Old 2009-07-19, 01:08   Link #91
emauser
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I have question about Suu Kantsu. I found that if four Kans are declared by two or more players than the hand ends in a draw. Doesn't that mean that a single player can declare four Kans without consequences? Or am I mistaken?

Last edited by emauser; 2009-07-19 at 01:08. Reason: grammar check
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Old 2009-07-19, 01:14   Link #92
Proto
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Yes, that's correct. As long as the 4 kan's are declared by a single player the hand doesn't end in an abortive draw.

@Bambi: That's assuming she didn't made any calls for the potentially open Yakuman's, which just throws a wrench into the equation
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Old 2009-07-19, 15:09   Link #93
Bambi
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@Bambi: That's assuming she didn't made any calls for the potentially open Yakuman's, which just throws a wrench into the equation
Hehe yeah, after all it's theorycraft based only on half table view so it has many holes, but from my point of view open hand yakumans limit Saki's possibilities even more.
I briefly checked chapter again and any calls looks unlikely, at least from Kana or Koromo discards ......

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Yes, that's correct. As long as the 4 kan's are declared by a single player the hand doesn't end in an abortive draw.
Another question about Kan/Dead wall: I know that more than 4 kans isn't possible because you run out of Dora indicators and Kan replacemenet tiles, but somewhere I read that dead wall is replenished from the end of normal wall (it contadict that no more 4 kans reasoning). But I found it only on one place and in Saki they don't do it, so i'm now currious if it's complete nonsense or if it's really present in some rule sets?
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Old 2009-07-20, 01:46   Link #94
tjalorak
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Another question about Kan/Dead wall: I know that more than 4 kans isn't possible because you run out of Dora indicators and Kan replacemenet tiles, but somewhere I read that dead wall is replenished from the end of normal wall (it contadict that no more 4 kans reasoning). But I found it only on one place and in Saki they don't do it, so i'm now currious if it's complete nonsense or if it's really present in some rule sets?
In ep. 16 of Saki, the dead wall is replenished from the end of the normal wall. Kana does it a couple times to try and throw Koromo off her path to haitei.

Edit: Here's the image from the manga.



No idea why it isn't showing up. It's in volume 5. Link: http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/20671/67
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Last edited by tjalorak; 2009-07-20 at 04:53.
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Old 2009-07-20, 04:03   Link #95
Bambi
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
In ep. 16 of Saki, the dead wall is replenished from the end of the normal wall. Kana does it a couple times to try and throw Koromo off her path to haitei.

Edit: Here's the image from the manga.
Yeah, saw it in Anime too now, but what is reason? To keep same count of tiles in game? I guess.

Btw what chapter in manga it was, your image is gone? Looks like I missed it.
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Old 2009-07-20, 17:34   Link #96
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As mentioned in the anime thread, is anyone else getting the Yugioh vibe while reading the manga? I feel like I am watching the mahjong version of Yugi vs Pegasus battle. With Koromo destroying the lights and everything after Saki starts to get back in the groove, it reminds me of how Pegasus decides to take the battle into the "SHADOW REALM" when Yugi starts switching with Yami-Yugi repeatedly throughout the battle.
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Old 2009-07-23, 04:21   Link #97
metronome
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urgh....the mangaka really leaves me in suspense. come on, please come out chapter 52.

you think koromo will throw away that 1 ball?. time to make a bet yay.~~
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Old 2009-07-23, 04:46   Link #98
Bambi
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urgh....the mangaka really leaves me in suspense. come on, please come out chapter 52.
Tell that to all these peoples who buy tankoubon version, 51 was last chapter of volume 6

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you think koromo will throw away that 1 ball?. time to make a bet yay.~~
50/50 from my point of view, it really depends how much she is intimidated by Saki. If she plays defensively and safe she will keep it, but otoh she is very self-confident so maybe she will try to finish game by win ....
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Old 2009-07-26, 21:09   Link #99
metronome
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Tell that to all these peoples who buy tankoubon version, 51 was last chapter of volume 6


50/50 from my point of view, it really depends how much she is intimidated by Saki. If she plays defensively and safe she will keep it, but otoh she is very self-confident so maybe she will try to finish game by win ....
oh no.....51 is the last chapter of vol 6? heh no wonder it is long.

50-50 is good gamble. I will put 10 USD on the possibility she is not going to throw that 1 away:P.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:36   Link #100
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This might not be the last round if Yumi ends up winning this one as East. Of course it won't matter for the point balance between Saki and Koromo unless she ends up getting a direct hit on one of them.

Since we learned in the anime that there are no double yakuman, doesn't that mean that it's impossible for Kana to win anymore no matter what? The best she could do is a normal yakuman hit on Koromo, but that won't be enough to win. Did she discard her tsumo Yakuman, because she's just hoping for a direct hit on Koromo as revenge even though she has no chance of winning? Or perhaps she doesn't want to end the final round yet, since it would be like giving Koromo a victory. Afterall, it was Saki who saved her from death's door.
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