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Old 2009-07-25, 02:23   Link #921
Nobodyman9
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^Indeed, and that's all well and good. You certainly can't deny that Shirley's death certainly set off a series of events, but that's the whole point of any story is that different plot points initiate and lead to different series of events. Any one of those incidents you mentioned could've changed ever so slightly and we would've been left with totally different results.

But more to the point, I'm not talking about what events happened as a result of Shirley's death, I'm talking about how it affected Lelouch (and other characters) on a personal level. Thus far you've offered the idea that the biggest impact of it was that it caused Lelouch to hate the geass and see it as a curse and sin, and I, quite frankly, don't really see that all that much outside of the massacre.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:26   Link #922
bladeofdarkness
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C.C's words while crying over him
"lelouch, for your sins of using geass on people..."
it made him start seeing geass, and therefor, his use of it
as wrong
but during Z-R, he was intentioanlly doing things that he KNEW were wrong anyway
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:36   Link #923
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
C.C's words while crying over him
"lelouch, for your sins of using geass on people..."
it made him start seeing geass, and therefor, his use of it
as wrong
but during Z-R, he was intentioanlly doing things that he KNEW were wrong anyway
oooooooookay, again I'm not sure that that directly correlates to Shirley. First off, it's C.C. saying that, so obviously she too must consider the geass as some sort of sin. This actually lends itself to the idea that the belief of the geass being a sin is not just exclusive to Lelouch based on the disastrous results with Shirley, but that the geass is believed by many to be a cursed. Lelouch himself stated in season 1 that he had made a deal with the devil. Truly, I think he had always believed that the geass was bad, it's just that after Shirley's death he realized it was too powerful and dangerous to be controlled and thus had to be destroyed (or it may have been just an impulsive and irrational bitch move in response to his grief over her death)
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:39   Link #924
bladeofdarkness
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i gave you my two cents on how her death effected the plot
for a secondary character with very little connection to the main story thats not bad at all
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:49   Link #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginran View Post
Im really curious now though~ I wonder when translations will start showing up?

I also heard that Lelouch mentions both Shirley and Rolo in his narration. Also, idk if this has been said here already, but the reason Shirley and Rolo were picked to do narrations along with CC and Lelouch was stated in an interview. It is because "their deaths were the most important triggers of Lelouch's actions."
Ah~ I just love it. The feeling of all my ideas coming together. Last time extra material left me this satisfied was that fic about being at Ashford being Lelouch's 'ideal world'. I'm pretty damn excited for this commentary stuff now, hope I don't get disappointed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
sheirly's death was the point where lelouch went from seeing geass as a powerful gift
to seeing it as a sin and a curse
thats why he tried wiping it out at the source
:P I'm much rather inclined to take 'triggers of Lelouch's actions' as referring to Zero Requiem, but your interpretation is still pretty solid there. Lelouch did end up calling Geass a 'sin' by the end, even specifically the sin he was seeking redemption for, but it was pretty vague as to when he could have reached such a conclusion. To take Lelouch's "I'll be the only one to have Geass" comment after Shirley's death as anything other than self-serving isn't such a bad thing.

I still honestly believe Lelouch's death had less to do with feeling obligated (i.e. by redemption) to die so much as wanting to die. The despair over losing all hope of a gentle world with those he cared about plays an obvious role there. Zero Requiem wasn't just about Lelouch dying, though. It was also about giving the world a tomorrow, and doing so through a lie.

In that sense, I think I can (fairly) put it this way (lol awesome, I get to 'fairly' dump on Rolo): Shirley taught Lelouch that he himself pursued a little piece of happiness, while Rolo taught him everyone did. What Lelouch saw in Rolo's death was a person sincerely, desperately struggling for the small piece of happiness he knew as 'a peaceful life with an older brother that truly loved him', so in his final moments, Lelouch was kind, and lied to him; granting that happiness. This was probably where Lelouch's whole "masks are good! Lies are useful!" speech with Charles came from, and why he chose deception as his method in uniting the world towards the pursuit of happiness. You could probably say that 'lies' was the theme of Rolo's character, and what he brought to the show.

To which I say: fuck that! Lies suck, and the show did a poor job of convincing me otherwise. Charles' 'you fucking punk, stop hiding behind a mask like a little man and come fight me fair and square' honesty theme was awesomer than Rolo ever was. Not to mention, now that we've established that Lelouch was lying to Rolo during his death, we can firmly assert that Rolo was a delusional little prick and that Lelouch didn't actually love him. Ahaha yay.

Anyway, back to Shirley though. As much as maybe I could get away with it, I couldn't honestly claim my Rolo bashing is on topic in a Shirley thread. As I said, Shirley taught Lelouch what happiness was (OKAY SO IT WAS SUZAKU WHO CAME UP WITH THE CHEEZY METAPHOR, BUT IT WAS SHIRLEY WHO INSPIRED LELOUCH TO UNDERSTAND IT, OKAY?!?! *insert crazy person emoticon*), which would obviously lead to a willingness to embrace death once he lost hope for it, as I've said before. By making Lelouch aware of his struggle for happiness, though, she also allowed Lelouch to see past his hatred of Rolo to his own struggle for happiness, and find meaning in it, and therefore become willing to lie to grant it.

Anyway, then there's the whole 'the sun rises after the dark night' theme about putting your painful burdens of the past behind you and looking towards the future from Stage 14, which is basically a perfect metaphor for what the world did and what happened during Zero Requiem, so I'd say that was also part of the inspiration too. I'm kinda getting away from the topic of Shirley's death though, so I'll stop here. Seriously though, unlike Rolo, there is not one thing about Shirley's death that contributed towards the happy ending. Making Lelouch believe Geass was a sin, making Lelouch eventually give up on his own happiness, all of this stuff contributed towards the suicide part of Zero Requiem. It was only the things Shirley did while living that helped shape the 'future' part of Lelouch's final sacrifice. So it's pretty damn hard to get enthusiastic about it. Really though, I think Shirley played a principal role in shaping both ends of Zero: Requiem, both the death part and the hope part, and I think that really shows the all-encompassing nature of how Shirley influenced Lelouch.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:51   Link #926
bladeofdarkness
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read my last five posts ;P
not my fault that you take too long
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:53   Link #927
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i gave you my two cents on how her death effected the plot
for a secondary character with very little connection to the main story thats not bad at all
So that's it then? Well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I do agree that, comparatively speaking, she did have quite an impact on the plot, at least while she was alive. I think she was very well handled in the first season, what with her own little sub-arc and all that, but after her death in R2 I think her character was pretty much forgotten and all that development pretty much wasted. I think the extent to her impact on the plot after her death was limited to the cult massacre and a few mentions thereafter which really weren't specifically about just her anyway. And that's really what I'm talking about is to what end her death served, and I don't buy the whole "one step in a chain of events" deal, nor I do particularly buy the "hating geass" deal. But if that's where we stand, then so be it.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:55   Link #928
bladeofdarkness
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euphie suffered the same fate
she was killed in order to trigger events

thats just how it is
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:11   Link #929
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
read my last five posts ;P
not my fault that you take too long
lol okay, but that doesn't really negate any of what I said. I think Ginran's quote about 'Shirley and Rolo's deaths being the main triggers for Lelouch's actions' refers more specifically to Lelouch's actions during Zero Requiem, not his immediate actions following the deaths themselves. That's why I brought up the aspect of Lelouch lying to Rolo in order to grant him happiness (in death): this is what he ended up doing for the whole world (lying to it to grant it happiness), so I think that's how Rolo's death triggered Lelouch's actions in Zero Requiem.

Similarily, I agree with you that Lelouch seeing Geass as a sin may have been one of the things Shirley's death did to influence Zero Requiem. Because Lelouch now saw Geass as a sin, he had to redeem himself for it, and he did that by sacrificing his life for the happiness of others. Shirley's death seems like the most likely time for Lelouch to have come to such a conclusion (that Geass is a sin), so that fits there.

However, I disagree that that was the most important impact that Shirley's death had on Lelouch. I think, moreso than seeking redemption, Lelouch's true reason for creating a plan that killed him was because he wanted to die, and the loss of everything that had ever made him happy was, I think, the principal reason for that. If we make a basic comparison between Lelouch's scream of anguish and his bloodthirsty destruction of the Geass cult, both of these are rather raw, primal reactions to Shirley's death, so I suppose this might be debatable. Personally, though, I think the strongest impact Shirley's death had on Lelouch was that of losing something important to him (the scream), moreso than coming to hate geass (the massecre).

Also, my final point was that Shirley's death only contributed to the negative aspects of Zero Requiem (the suicide part), while Shirley's life contributed a great deal to the positive aspects (looking to tomorrow, the pursuit of happiness). Therefore, I think the impact of Shirley's life was more important.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:12   Link #930
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
euphie suffered the same fate
she was killed in order to trigger events

thats just how it is
And it sucks greatly. But here's the difference between Euphie and Shirley:

Euphie was constantly remembered by Suzaku and occassionally by others (remember the floating candle scene?)

Uh, and I'm starting to run out of steam, just one more.

And don't take too much stock into this next one because it's more subjective and not totally relevant, but Euphie didn't really suffer as much as Shirley. Whereas Euphie's death was sudden and tragic, Shirley's death was sudden, tragic and completely insane. It was beyond adding insult to injury.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:26   Link #931
bladeofdarkness
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@Sol
i called "hating geass" the change to his CHARACTER
her death effected him on a personal level beyond simply that
it marks the end of his life in ashford, and it marks the start that would lead to ep 17
but those are not changes in character

@ Nobodyman9
euphie was suzaku's main motivation for most of season 2
sheirly was not lelouch's main motivation, that goes to nunnaly
thats the difference

and i dont agree about euphie getting a better or less insane death then shierly
if anything, her death was far more grusome, as it also involved her destroying everything she ever stood for
and it was nothing short of complete tragedy, as there was no actual malice involved
sheirly was MURDERED, because the guy who murdered her wanted to shut her up
thats much simpler then the diabolus ex machine that happened to euphie
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:47   Link #932
Sol Falling
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:P lol, you didn't call it anything, you just said that Shirley's death was the point at which it happened. I'm just saying that if we're talking about the Zero Requiem DVD commentary quote about "Shirley and Rolo were chosen because their deaths were the primary triggers for Lelouch's actions", then the 'actions' we should be talking about are the ones he took during Zero Requiem, not during Turn 17 or Turn 14 or whatever.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:55   Link #933
Nobodyman9
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@blade: True, that's a difference, but they have many differences.

As far as their deaths I was mainly talking about Shirley had already suffered enough during season 1 and then she had gone through some more turmoil in Turn 13 and then to kill her off on top of it all was just the final straw and practically ludicrous. But that is, after all, just my opinion.

But anyway, I still think Euphie's death was more impactful on the plot and the characters than Shirley's was.

@Sol: Ha ha, well I'm not sure if we ARE talking about the commentary quote specifically. This was all brought up due to masterkitfistos comment about her death and then it turned into a heated debate about the impact of her death. Total Internet backdraft moment.
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Old 2009-07-28, 07:22   Link #934
piercing
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
@blade: True, that's a difference, but they have many differences.

As far as their deaths I was mainly talking about Shirley had already suffered enough during season 1 and then she had gone through some more turmoil in Turn 13 and then to kill her off on top of it all was just the final straw and practically ludicrous. But that is, after all, just my opinion.

But anyway, I still think Euphie's death was more impactful on the plot and the characters than Shirley's was.

@Sol: Ha ha, well I'm not sure if we ARE talking about the commentary quote specifically. This was all brought up due to masterkitfistos comment about her death and then it turned into a heated debate about the impact of her death. Total Internet backdraft moment.
Shirley and Euphie were important persons to Lelouch, and their deaths had impact on him. Except, that in Euphie's death, it was more of a "i regret it but i must go on" (it had way more impact on Suzaku) while with Shirley, it was "i am gonna avenge you."
You could say, there are outline-similarities, as figures of lovers for Lelouch and Suzaku respectively, but that would be accurate and at the same time not.
I hope you get my point across though. 8D
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Old 2009-07-28, 14:46   Link #935
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Shirley and Euphie were important persons to Lelouch, and their deaths had impact on him. Except, that in Euphie's death, it was more of a "i regret it but i must go on" (it had way more impact on Suzaku) while with Shirley, it was "i am gonna avenge you."
You could say, there are outline-similarities, as figures of lovers for Lelouch and Suzaku respectively, but that would be accurate and at the same time not.
I hope you get my point across though. 8D
Yeah, I get what you're saying. But Lelouch's vengeance plan was totally messed up. He killed the people that were responsible in the most indirect way possible and then he completely forgot about killing Rolo afterwards.

Anyway, as you said in the generic thread, there's apparently been a lot of Shirley/Shirlulu hate on 2chan. Anyone have any ideas or speculations as to what could be causing this (obviously it must have something to do with ZR DVD)
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Old 2009-07-28, 14:56   Link #936
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Yeah, I get what you're saying. But Lelouch's vengeance plan was totally messed up. He killed the people that were responsible in the most indirect way possible and then he completely forgot about killing Rolo afterwards.

I was mostly referring to those old korean spoilers, that were "supposedly" taken from Geass chart during a hacking-something, that had Shirley after that incident, listed as a "lover". I think, she fitted that description and exactly because of the circumstances, at the same time, she did not.
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Old 2009-07-28, 14:59   Link #937
Nobodyman9
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I was mostly referring to those old korean spoilers, that were "supposedly" taken from Geass chart during a hacking-something, that had Shirley after that incident, listed as a "lover". I think, she fitted that description and exactly because of the circumstances, at the same time, she did not.
What do you mean? You said, and I quote...

Quote:
On another note, apparently in 2chan, there has been a lot of Anti-Shirley (Shirlulu ??) campaign lately
Why would they be talking about something like that now? And you said that we would know what the hate was about in a few days.
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Old 2009-07-28, 15:06   Link #938
piercing
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
What do you mean? You said, and I quote...



Why would they be talking about something like that now? And you said that we would know what the hate was about in a few days.
Ahhh, did you even notice what i posted? I said my random two cents, cause those korean spoilers, hit me from old times and i was making a relevance with Suzu-Euphie and Lulu-Shirley in a way. Has nothing to do with anything now.
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Old 2009-07-28, 15:37   Link #939
Nobodyman9
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Ahhh, did you even notice what i posted? I said my random two cents, cause those korean spoilers, hit me from old times and i was making a relevance with Suzu-Euphie and Lulu-Shirley in a way. Has nothing to do with anything now.
What in the world are you talking about? You're completely contradicting what you said on the generic discussion thread. I'm not talking about your assessment of Suza-Euphie and Lulu-Shirley. What I'm talking about is...

Quote:
On another note, apparently in 2chan, there has been a lot of Anti-Shirley (Shirlulu ??) campaign lately, not sure what to make out of this. I suppose, in the next few days, we will know
and

Quote:
I cannot really comprehend a lot of things, but apparently it obviously has to do with what was featured in the Special Edition.
Are you telling me that that all means nothing? I don't see what any of that has to do with Korean spoilers that came out almost a year ago anyway.
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Old 2009-07-28, 15:38   Link #940
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What in the world are you talking about? You're completely contradicting what you said on the generic discussion thread. I'm not talking about your assessment of Suza-Euphie and Lulu-Shirley. What I'm talking about is...


and


Are you telling me that that all means nothing? I don't see what any of that has to do with Korean spoilers that came out almost a year ago anyway.
What are you even saying there?Skyless obviously made a parallel,the other shit you quoted are irrelevant to her last post.Simple logic.
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