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Old 2009-07-24, 19:48   Link #221
DSDSSDWE
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Do you not believe your will can be strong enough to do impossible things? The lack of belief in this will makes you weaker than those who believe. It is that belief and the will to accomplish that makes people strong, in life or in fiction.
By definition you cannot do impossible things, otherwise they wouldn't be impossible. It's possible that your state of mind can push your body to go over your usual limits, yes. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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And in fiction, they exaggerate this will, so much that even an arrow can become stronger. Did you skip my explanation on weapons being an extension of the human body? If you can swing a sword and the sword reflects your intentions, can it be done with a bow? You don't believe that an arrow can carry a person's intentions, but the practitioners of Kyudo(Japanese traditional archery) do.
Your "explanations" are merely assumptions based on your view of haki. That has little to do with its degree of logic in applying it the way you assume it does in the OP universe. Because as someone else has mentioned, it has 0 basis in the manga.

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Even for a gun, its the intention to kill someone that causes death. If your intention is to cause injury and you put all your will and focus into aiming properly at non lethal parts, you will not kill but just cause injury to the arm or leg.
I find this a rather inappropriate analogy. A gun is made with the ability to shoot bullets, regardless of your intentions. No matter how hard you try, you cannot will a gun or a bullet to do something it's not able to do in the first place. Yes, you can aim and make the gun do what it's made to do, but you cannot make a bullet harder or softer with willpower.

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I urge you to read and understand my posts before arguing with me again.
I'm responding to you based on what you've already said in the last 3 pages. I don't need to read everything when I can pick out things I find nonsensical, regardless of how many things you say about it.
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:30   Link #222
paradox13
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I'd also like to add that a word that means something in real life could mean something entirely different in the context of a manga. An example of this would be the word 'pirate'. A pirate is defined as 'One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation.', and we know that this isn't how Oda uses it (Luffy n friends do not steal; Oda has confirmed that there are 2 types of pirates in the OP world, adventurers and plunderers, whilst the word pirate in the real world only refers to such plunderers). Also words like Chakra (which originated from India) and Shinigami have meanings in their respective mangas which completely differ from their original meaning.

This is why I don't think we should interpret what Oda is trying to mean by using the word haki just yet, as we have too little information as of now.
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:39   Link #223
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Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
By definition you cannot do impossible things, otherwise they wouldn't be impossible. It's possible that your state of mind can push your body to go over your usual limits, yes. But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
It has everything to do with One Piece. Luffy has been demonstrating all the way that it is the intention to do something that will make even impossible tasks possible. And this is that spirit coming from Luffy's Haki.
Quote:
Your "explanations" are merely assumptions based on your view of haki. That has little to do with its degree of logic in applying it the way you assume it does in the OP universe. Because as someone else has mentioned, it has 0 basis in the manga.
Unless I'm proven wrong, Haki in One Piece has been working the same as all the other manga I've read and brought up as examples in my posts.
Quote:
I find this a rather inappropriate analogy. A gun is made with the ability to shoot bullets, regardless of your intentions. No matter how hard you try, you cannot will a gun or a bullet to do something it's not able to do in the first place. Yes, you can aim and make the gun do what it's made to do, but you cannot make a bullet harder or softer with willpower.
Whether its harder or softer it doesn't matter. What matters is that intention can indeed affect the outcome of a weapon, even if its a ranged weapon. And in a fictional world such as One Piece, with superhuman abilities and powers, where things that are impossible in real life are made possible, such intentions are exaggerated to become impossible feats.
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Old 2009-07-24, 21:09   Link #224
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Unless I'm proven wrong, Haki in One Piece has been working the same as all the other manga I've read and brought up as examples in my posts.
The arrow example and Luffy's rubber characteristics already mess up your "haki = willpower" theory.

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Whether its harder or softer it doesn't matter.
It does, actually. In fact, it's the very crux of the matter: using willpower to change something into doing something it's not able to do "ultimately" is impossible in the real world and nonsensical in the OP Universe. And this goes double (I know, that's not possible) for inanimate objects.

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What matters is that intention can indeed affect the outcome of a weapon, even if its a ranged weapon.
Of course intentions can affect the outcome of a weapon because a weapon does not have a predetermined outcome: instead, it has a range of possible outcomes. That's what a weapon, i.e. a tool, is made for. The point is that just intent/willpower alone won't change a weapon into doing something it wasn't originally capable of doing. If the bullets in your gun aren't able to go through concrete before, no matter how much you "will" it, they won't go through the concrete.

Quote:
And in a fictional world such as One Piece, with superhuman abilities and powers, where things that are impossible in real life are made possible, such intentions are exaggerated to become impossible feats.
Again, don't you realize that calling something that does happen in the OP universe an "exaggeration" already means that your theory doesn't strictly apply? If it's an "exaggeration" then it's outside of your theory. Although in this case, "overextended" is probably more applicable, as "exaggeration" implies something that didn't actually happen. Since it did happen in the OP universe, you need to adjust your theory to fit that too, and not call it an "exaggerated" result.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:59   Link #225
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Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
The arrow example and Luffy's rubber characteristics already mess up your "haki = willpower" theory.

It does, actually. In fact, it's the very crux of the matter: using willpower to change something into doing something it's not able to do "ultimately" is impossible in the real world and nonsensical in the OP Universe. And this goes double (I know, that's not possible) for inanimate objects.

Of course intentions can affect the outcome of a weapon because a weapon does not have a predetermined outcome: instead, it has a range of possible outcomes. That's what a weapon, i.e. a tool, is made for. The point is that just intent/willpower alone won't change a weapon into doing something it wasn't originally capable of doing. If the bullets in your gun aren't able to go through concrete before, no matter how much you "will" it, they won't go through the concrete.

Again, don't you realize that calling something that does happen in the OP universe an "exaggeration" already means that your theory doesn't strictly apply? If it's an "exaggeration" then it's outside of your theory. Although in this case, "overextended" is probably more applicable, as "exaggeration" implies something that didn't actually happen. Since it did happen in the OP universe, you need to adjust your theory to fit that too, and not call it an "exaggerated" result.
Its not proven wrong, its only you who do not accept the explanation. In fact I've even brought up examples in my posts on Haki arrows in other manga. Haki or Ki in fiction has always been a force that can be transferred through weapons and even bows. Haki and Ki itself can even be a projectile or energy blast. Weapons are an extension of a person's body, in martial arts they believe your Ki is transferred along with your strike or the shot of an arrow.

My posts on Haki and Ki are based on the word's definition and how it has always been shown in fiction. The definition of the word is unchanged in any of the fictional references, its only the extent of exaggeration. Exaggeration is common in fiction, anything that suspends belief or is impossible in the real world is an exaggeration. Fiction uses amplified effects of something that happens in the real world to emphasize the point.

Haki is amplified, exaggerated in fiction to show the extent of how ambitious and strong willed the characters are.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:07   Link #226
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Your arrows suddenly becoming stronger because of your "strong will" is silly. Infusing objects with your "willpower" to make them a lot stronger sounds even sillier.
You know when I saw this I can't help but think that your forgetting this is one piece. One piece is filled with many absurd/silly things.
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:34   Link #227
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Its not proven wrong, its only you who do not accept the explanation.
I haven't proven you wrong and you haven't proven anything. You've provided arguments for your theory, which is baseless from what we currently know of the OP universe.

Quote:
In fact I've even brought up examples in my posts on Haki arrows in other manga. Haki or Ki in fiction has always been a force that can be transferred through weapons and even bows. Haki and Ki itself can even be a projectile or energy blast. Weapons are an extension of a person's body, in martial arts they believe your Ki is transferred along with your strike or the shot of an arrow.
What they're transferring is not "willpower" but "internal energy". Chi used in DBZ, for example, refers to actual "energy". Idem for Nen used in HxH. It's not willpower, but internal energy that can be increased through training.

Quote:
Exaggeration is common in fiction, anything that suspends belief or is impossible in the real world is an exaggeration. Fiction uses amplified effects of something that happens in the real world to emphasize the point.

Haki is amplified, exaggerated in fiction to show the extent of how ambitious and strong willed the characters are.
One more time: an exaggerated version of haki does no longer equal haki. Do you understand? Haki may be willpower in reality, but it's clearly some kind of (internal) energy in the OP universe resembling HxH's nen.

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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
You know when I saw this I can't help but think that your forgetting this is one piece. One piece is filled with many absurd/silly things.
Every universe has its own "logic". The idea that someone's "willpower" is strong enough to influence arrows and people's DF's powers is unsubstantiated in the OP universe. And frankly, I think it would make for illogical plotholes later.
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:49   Link #228
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Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
I haven't proven you wrong and you haven't proven anything. You've provided arguments for your theory, which is baseless from what we currently know of the OP universe.

What they're transferring is not "willpower" but "internal energy". Chi used in DBZ, for example, refers to actual "energy". Idem for Nen used in HxH. It's not willpower, but internal energy that can be increased through training.

One more time: an exaggerated version of haki does no longer equal haki. Do you understand? Haki may be willpower in reality, but it's clearly some kind of (internal) energy in the OP universe resembling HxH's nen.
How do youy know I'm completely baseless if you've not read all my posts?

And do you have any proof that it is not willpower but internal energy?

Actually if you've bothered to read more of my posts, you'll find out that that 'internal energy' is Ki. And Ki is a person's spirit, will, emotion, mood and health, in other words, the entire person. Your emotions, will and intention is your drive, it is the energy for you to accomplish something.

Why does Goku become stronger when he is angry? Why does Kenshiro become stronger with more sadness? Why does Domon become stronger when he calms himself? What is the power of love? Why is courage power? Why do Japanese say 'omoi no chikara', 'power of feelings'?

It is because in the Japanese culture, energy comes from your emotions and will, that is what Ki is about.

I'll copy and paste this one again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
And like I mentioned in my Ki explanation posts, Ki is referred differently in different situations. Your Ki is your mood and spirit, only when you want to defeat someone it is called '覇気' (haki). Having a killing intention, '殺気' (sakki), having an evil intention, '悪気' (warugi). Feeling serious, '本気' (honki), feeling healthy/energetic, '元気' (genki), innocence, '無邪気' (mujaki). And many more.
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Old 2009-07-25, 05:25   Link #229
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And do you have any proof that it is not willpower but internal energy?
You don't have any proof either.


And I have read all your posts.
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Old 2009-07-25, 05:38   Link #230
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
How do youy know I'm completely baseless if you've not read all my posts?
I didn't say you were completely baseless. And, again, I say this based on the rubber/arrow arguments and your nonsensical replies to it.

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Actually if you've bothered to read more of my posts, you'll find out that that 'internal energy' is Ki.
I just literally said that chi is internal energy and gave a number of examples. Why would I bother reading your posts when I already came to this conclusion by myself?

Quote:
And Ki is a person's spirit, will, emotion, mood and health, in other words, the entire person. Your emotions, will and intention is your drive, it is the energy for you to accomplish something.
But it's not "actual" (inner) energy. Will is not that kind of energy, like how a gun is not a bullet. A gun may enable a bullet to "launch", but it's not the bullet itself. In that sense, the energy that's clearly some kind of form that can flow into inanimate objects and somehow mess up DF's Logia abilities is some kind of special/magical power within a person.

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Why does Goku become stronger when he is angry? Why does Kenshiro become stronger with more sadness? Why does Domon become stronger when he calms himself? What is the power of love? Why is courage power?
They become stronger because the body/mind ignore their usual limits so they can push themselves harder. It's simply a trade-off.

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Why do Japanese say 'omoi no chikara', 'power of feelings'?
What people say/believe and what is real are 2 completely different things. Try not to confuse the two.

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It is because in the Japanese culture, energy comes from your emotions and will, that is what Ki is about.
Energy that is enabled by emotions and will, among other things, does not equal it being emotions and will. In other words, it no longer is will when it's there just to enable some kind of special power/energy to do something. For example; a more physical/tangible manifestation of will is no longer will, but a physical manifestation of it. There is a difference, and you are confusing the two.

And although this reasoning hits closer to home, i.e. the OP universe, it still does not explain properly why there are only a few people who can have "the king's haki": the haki of the chosen. That itself already implies that it's some special ability/power from within that exceeds the explanation of "will".
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Old 2009-07-25, 05:56   Link #231
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The reason I post so much is because I learnt and understand Japanese and I'm explaining to people who don't about what Ki means.

Since there are some people who are not taking my words, Ill just leave it to other people:

How fundamental Ki can be: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/...our-%E6%B0%97/

Ki in various perspectives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

The East and the West view the world differently: http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110000486932/en

The Japanese use Ki in just about everything, it is the fundamental element of everything.
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Old 2009-07-25, 06:13   Link #232
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The reason I post so much is because I learnt and understand Japanese and I'm explaining to people who don't about what Ki means.
You are yet again confusing 2 different concepts: what ki/chi is in real life and whether its application in OP (or other manga/anime universes) warrants calling it ki/chi.

Quote:
Since there are some people who are not taking my words, Ill just leave it to other people:

How fundamental Ki can be: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/...our-%E6%B0%97/
First line:
Quote:
「気」 is a kind of energy embodied by your mind and spirit
Do you realize that he just literally said that chi (assuming that is what that character represents) is an energy that is controlled? That it does not in fact equal the mind and spirit, but that it is just controlled by it?

First line third link:
Quote:
Several centuries before the birth of Christ, the Chinese had already identified energy as the basic component of the universe.
I don't have to tell you that this energy he's talking about in no way equals a person's "will", right?

If nothing else, your links only strengthen my point.

Quote:
The Japanese use Ki in just about everything, it is the fundamental element of everything.
Doesn't make it real, though. And that's not what this is about anyway. We're talking about haki as seen working in OP. Not the RL Japanese interpretation of it.

Last edited by DSDSSDWE; 2009-07-25 at 06:36. Reason: Oops, was actually the third link, not the second link :)
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Old 2009-07-25, 06:33   Link #233
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The third link is to tell you that you do not understand what Ki is fundamentally because of your Western perspective.

Do you know that if you read One Piece in Japanese, every time Haki is mentioned, it is simply a part of sentences as a normal verb or noun? It is spoken just like how people use the word in real life. Haki is the spirit and mood that the characters have, the extent of the power it has doesn't matter.

Ki is your mind and spirit, that is why it is called the energy embodied by the mind and spirit. It changes with your mood and acts with your will. The intentions and emotions behind the Ki lead to different variations of Ki, which is why it has 11,000+ words based on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
've been saying Ki is everything, its the atmosphere, mood and spirit.

Example, a house on the top of the hill has a reputation to be haunted, people are afraid of getting close to it. You and your friend decide to enter it for fun. The house has broken windows, creaking doors and floors, spiderwebs all over the place. It has a spooky atmosphere, your adventurous spirit changes to fear as you sense that there's someone staring at you all the time, giving a spooky presence. Your mood changes as the air feels kind of chilly, sending chills down your spine, you decide to leave.

That is the Ki that the haunted house makes, '怖気', ozoke, frightening Ki, it has a frightful, spooky atmosphere that makes people scared. But if you're brave enough, the house will not scare you. And if the house is renovated and made to look new, it will not have a spooky atmosphere anymore, unless people know of its old reputation and may still be spooked at times. Japanese attributes mood directly to how the atmosphere feels.

In English there's 'the tension in the air was so thick, it could be cut with a knife', this is a description similar to what Ki describes, the air is the mood.

People can create the mood of the occasion, imagine everyone is on a fun trip. But some guy decides to be stupid and plays a prank on a girl. The girl was hurt and cries, everyone's spirits were dampened because of that.
Everything in the universe can be described with Ki, that is why its called the basic component of the universe. The haunted house's 'ozoke' is the energy that drives people out of it, fear is the energy here that sends people away.

The links are there to show how different our perspectives are.
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Old 2009-07-25, 06:42   Link #234
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The third link is to tell you that you do not understand what Ki is fundamentally because of your Western perspective.
Sorry about that C.A.: When I said the first line second link, I meant the first line of the third link. And the interpretation of "chi" in the third link completely debunks your version of chi: chi is energy that can be controlled by will(power), but it's obviously not will(power)

And that's why I said you need to differentiate between "something that controls" and "something that is". I'm not a gun even though I can control/influence a gun. Will(power) that influences some kind of energy does not equal that energy equaling will(power).
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Old 2009-07-25, 06:53   Link #235
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気力(kiryoku): Willpower, energy.

気: Ki
力: Power

Willpower is the power of Ki, the strength of a person's Ki comes from his willpower. Willpower is the energy among other factors like emotions that makes up a person's Ki.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:07   Link #236
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
気力(kiryoku): Willpower, energy.

気: Ki
力: Power

Willpower is the power of Ki, the strength of a person's Ki comes from his willpower. Willpower is the energy among other factors like emotions that makes up a person's Ki.
Huh? Are we still talking about the links you're showing? Can you respond to my statements that your first and third links refute your "ki/chi is willpower" thing? I still don't get the feeling that you understand that "something that is used to control something" and that "something that is controlled" can be, and in this case, are two different things. You need to address this, because this is the crux of the matter.

Also we're not concerned with its (real life) definition as much as its application in the OP universe. Besides, that definition doesn't imply "energy" as in the energy to change (inanimate) things, but talking about "emotions". That's obviously different.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:17   Link #237
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Do you know that if you read One Piece in Japanese, every time Haki is mentioned, it is simply a part of sentences as a normal verb or noun? It is spoken just like how people use the word in real life.
Quote:
I'd also like to add that a word that means something in real life could mean something entirely different in the context of a manga. An example of this would be the word 'pirate'. A pirate is defined as 'One who robs at sea or plunders the land from the sea without commission from a sovereign nation.', and we know that this isn't how Oda uses it (Luffy n friends do not steal; Oda has confirmed that there are 2 types of pirates in the OP world, adventurers and plunderers, whilst the word pirate in the real world only refers to such plunderers). Also words like Chakra (which originated from India) and Shinigami have meanings in their respective mangas which completely differ from their original meaning.

This is why I don't think we should interpret what Oda is trying to mean by using the word haki just yet, as we have too little information as of now.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:24   Link #238
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If you want an actual discussion, I urge you again to read my posts.

The 1st and 3rd links do not refute Ki being will. Actually if you do a search on the thread, I've never once said Ki being willpower, I've always been saying that Ki is will. Will is indeed one of the meanings of Ki.

And since you started saying Ki is willpower, I brought in 'Kiryoku' which actually means 'willpower'.

For real life definitions vs fictional definition:

For example, if there's a character powered by courage just like the way Haki powers characters in One Piece. Do people differentiate the meanings of courage in real life and in fiction? Courage is courage, it is the character's fearlessness and bravery.

Haki is the same, Haki in fiction is the same as Haki in real life, just like courage is the same in fiction and real life. Haki is just another word used in everyday sentences, it has no difference in fiction or real life.

Is beauty different in fiction and real life? What about intelligence?

Haki is just like all these words, they are the same in fiction and real life.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:44   Link #239
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
If you want an actual discussion, I urge you again to read my posts.
And if you want an actual discussion, I urge you to learn that controlling something doesn't equal being that something. I've read your posts, and I have seen no evidence that you can differentiate between these concepts. And it's rather important, because that's where you're not making sense, by mixing the two up.

Quote:
The 1st and 3rd links do not refute Ki being will. Actually if you do a search on the thread, I've never once said Ki being willpower, I've always been saying that Ki is will. Will is indeed one of the meanings of Ki.
The first and third links refer to energy as something that exists outside of human control, or will or chi or haki. That is a fact. Your "will is ki is energy to change (inanimate) things" theory is therefore soundly refuted by your own links.

And you are correct in saying that I've incorrectly used "willpower" to mean "will", which is why I've changed it from willpower to will a couple of posts into this discussion, before you've said this.

Quote:
Haki is just like all these words, they are the same in fiction and real life.
Except that haki can make you do things in fiction that you can't do in real life. A rather important difference. In fact, depending on what interpretation of haki/ chi/ ki one uses, it may not even exist in real life. Or at least no evidence for its existence.
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Old 2009-07-25, 10:36   Link #240
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE View Post
And if you want an actual discussion, I urge you to learn that controlling something doesn't equal being that something. I've read your posts, and I have seen no evidence that you can differentiate between these concepts. And it's rather important, because that's where you're not making sense, by mixing the two up.

The first and third links refer to energy as something that exists outside of human control, or will or chi or haki. That is a fact. Your "will is ki is energy to change (inanimate) things" theory is therefore soundly refuted by your own links.

And you are correct in saying that I've incorrectly used "willpower" to mean "will", which is why I've changed it from willpower to will a couple of posts into this discussion, before you've said this.

Except that haki can make you do things in fiction that you can't do in real life. A rather important difference. In fact, depending on what interpretation of haki/ chi/ ki one uses, it may not even exist in real life. Or at least no evidence for its existence.
What does spirit mean? According to the dictionary:
Quote:
1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
6. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings
My links stated that Ki is something that exists outside of human control? Reread the 3rd link,
Quote:
It is claimed that by controlling "ki" we can not only achieve and maintain physical and mental health, but also fully realize our potential as human beings and begin to understand our place in the universe.
In fact the entire link is telling us about controlling Ki. Ki can be controlled in many ways.

Asian medicine are said to regulate Ki simply because when you are sick(byoki), you take medicine to become healthy(genki).

Gaogaigar is powered by 'Yuuki', as long as Guy has Yuuki, he will continue to fight.
Kenshiro and Raoh's source of power is their 'Touki', their Touki allows them to continue fighting.

Translate those words into english and you get:

Gaogaigar is powered by courage, as long as Guy has courage, he will continue to fight.
Kenshiro and Raoh's source of power is their fighting spirit, their fighting spirit allows them to continue fighting.

Haki sounds and works exactly like those 2 examples of Ki. Gaogaigar is a Super Robot running on Guy's courage, Raoh's fighting spirit can crack the earth he's standing on. Is their courage and fighting spirit different from the real world's? No, they mean exactly the same, the fictional effects are just there to emphasize the point.

Honestly I doubt you actually read what I posted carefully. You have no idea what Ki is at all and you cannot grasp the concept.
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