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Old 2009-07-24, 18:18   Link #2261
Keroko
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'vanished civilization' does not mean a non-human race. Lost Logia are literally what the name indicates: Lost Logia. The knowledge of how to create and/or control them has been lost with the civilization that created it.

Case in point, the Book of Darkness. It was a milenia old creation of Ancient Belka, which is now a vanished civilization. Sure, there are still Belkan remaining, and there certainly is still a Belkan culture, but the Ancient Belkan civilization has vanished, and any powerful technologies they created of which the knowledge has been lost are labeled Lost Logia.

If your rifle is a new creation from a civilization that still lives, no matter its rarity it is not a Lost Logia.
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Old 2009-07-24, 18:36   Link #2262
itanshi1
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Millenia? how old is the empire?

this is relevant to my interests :P
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:51   Link #2263
synaesthetic
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There seems to be an awful lot of unexplained relics of dead ancient civilizations in Nanohaverse. ^^;

Since the weapon's manufacturer does indeed still exist and do business, I suppose that would preclude it from being a Lost Logia. They can always make more, after all--they still have the engineering data, but the profit margins are terrible. They make more money putting beam cannons on cruisers, after all.

Apropos of the Lost Logia discussion, there's something of a plot hole when it comes to Reinforce II. Unison Devices are supposed to be Lost Logia--Agito is an example of that. But Hayate built Rein from the ground up. Remember, Reinforce I made it her dying request that Hayate not base her new Device on Reinforce I's remains.

Hayate didn't exactly follow this promise to the letter--her staff, Schwertzkreuz, is based on the "remnant" left behind by the original Reinforce.

So that makes Rein-chan an original creation. This should remove Unison Devices from the Lost Logia heap, and possibly lead to the creation of more Unison Devices.
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Old 2009-07-24, 21:05   Link #2264
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Rein Zwei herself is still based on data from Reinforce 1 though, and without the Book of Darkness Rein Zwei could never have been created. AFAIK technically though, Rein is said to be a "reformatted" Reinforce rather a 100% totally new creation, thus Hayate and the TSAB still wasn't totally responsible for her creation (though they probably had a major hand in it).
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:28   Link #2265
Keroko
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No, she's a new creation allright. I've had a long debate with Jim on this, but the conclusion was that Rein was created from scratch.

Besides, Unison Devices were never labeled Lost Logia.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:01   Link #2266
itanshi1
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Aren't they ancient in design tho? I'd think Agito was made as an attempt to recreate that technology.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:10   Link #2267
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It's not hard to posit a fuzzy category of things which were Lost Logia when they were first discovered, but where research into the effect managed to give Mid the ability to replicate the effect. (Maybe not as well. Maybe not as efficiently. Maybe in a different, but similar, way. Maybe not even usefully - anyone remember that big honkin' cannon thing Nanoha was using in the montage shot in the A's to Strikers manga?)

So you could probably get away with saying "reclusive group of enthusiasts/researchers/armorers found a Lost Logia weapon, and what this character has is the first working prototype they've managed to put together." You can dispose of the Lost Logia through TSAB action, character backstory, or even by its own actions ("This, Murray, is why Mom told us to go into a different fie-" Or you could have it hanging around - there's no end to the story usefulness of "someone who has the same kind of magic sword the protagonist does, except twice as shiny."

Remember that Mid's dating event was in the last century. They've got some records older than that, but things go quickly into story and myth; there weren't good records even from the time of the Saint King, which was what, 300 years ago? On the other hand, they DO have the Library...
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Old 2009-07-25, 04:38   Link #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, she's a new creation allright. I've had a long debate with Jim on this, but the conclusion was that Rein was created from scratch.

Besides, Unison Devices were never labeled Lost Logia.
I don't see how this could possibly be true when she has that message Rein left her. It might be something very small and it might have been through Hayate rather than a deliberate act of engineering, but it can't be said that nothing of Reinforce was incorporated into Rein 2.
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Old 2009-07-25, 05:03   Link #2269
Jimmy C
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From Strikers SS3. Reinforce Eins left a message for her successor in Hayate's Linker Core. It was downloaded to Rein Zwei when she was created, because part of the process was apparently giving part of Hayate's Linker Core to Rein Zwei.
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Old 2009-07-25, 11:54   Link #2270
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Of course, that may then beg the questions:

1: How much of a Linker Core Donation is required to create a Unison Device?;

and

2: How many Mages can actually manage to donate that amount?

In the Case of Hayate, it's not so much of an issue, because we know she has a huge (possibly artificially boosted) Linker Core to break into, but if the requirement is sufficiently large, it may be the case that it's simply not possible (or not safe) for Mages under a certain Linker Core rank to Donate the required 'amount' of Linker Core...

We know form A's that removal of the Linker Core even in part can have severe physical effects...

Thus even if Unison Device creation is understood, they may remain rare because there's a production bottleneck: The number of Mages with strong enough Linker Cores that they can donate sufficiently of their Linker Core to create a Unison Device without falling short or it killing them...
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Old 2009-07-25, 12:46   Link #2271
Jimmy C
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Not to mention, that "donation" isn't just to activate the UD, but probably also the reason they can "synchronize" with their masters. In short, they're custom devices that aren't as effective in other mages' hands.
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:21   Link #2272
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Which is true; we've seen that Rein-chan doesn't Unison particularly well with Vita or Signum, and Agito doesn't have a good connection to Zest. But Agito and Signum get along like fire and gasoline (almost literally!) and of course Hayate and Reinforce...

Hmm. Interesting thought--artificially created "universal" Linker Cores, like Type O blood, used to create Unison Devices that anyone can use effectively.

Kinda like a "Dummy Plug" Unison Device... and like the DPs of NGE, would be less effective than a true Meister/Unison Device.

... oh lawd, thanks to remembering the epilogue scene in which Rein refers to Hayate as "Meister..." now my brain's stuck on "Hayate Yagami, Gundam Meister of Celestial Being."

*has Gundam 00 on the brain*
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:27   Link #2273
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
... oh lawd, thanks to remembering the epilogue scene in which Rein refers to Hayate as "Meister..." now my brain's stuck on "Hayate Yagami, Gundam Meister of Celestial Being."

*has Gundam 00 on the brain*
COMRADE!!!!

Hayate: DOUBLE BAZOOKA! BURST MODDO!!!

*is blasted by Hyper Burst*
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:31   Link #2274
Keroko
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Unison Devices are ancient technologies, but they are not Lost Logia. Key word, again, is the 'lost' part. Unless the technology to create them has been lost, they are not Lost Logia. It should be noted that Agito is not created by the Bureau or the mad scientists that had captured her, Agito is a genuine Belkan Unison Device, suggesting that Unison Devices can live far beyond a human lifespan.

Which has also raised the as of yet unanswered question of the link between Signum and Agito, or if any is present at all.
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:37   Link #2275
synaesthetic
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Some guys on the WMG page at TVTropes suggests that the Wolkenritter were originally humans living in ancient Belkan times, absorbed by the Book of Darkness and turned into a defense program.

The logical conclusion to this is that Signum was originally a true Belkan Knight, and Agito was originally her Unison Device. ^^;

Completely, totally noncanon but nice to think about and good fanfiction fuel. These little threads of discussion certainly breed ideas.

Now I just have to resist the urge to write an AU where Nanoha, Fate and Hayate are fighting to eradicate war as members of Celestial Being...
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:41   Link #2276
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Given that Signum really seems to have a very tangible link to Agito, it would be logical to assume that the Knights were once human, when Signum still had a human linker core (and not the one she currently has).

And yes, I command you to write that AU now
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Old 2009-07-25, 15:42   Link #2277
Keroko
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Yup. It's a popular theory.

I hope they start giving some answers to it some day.
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Old 2009-07-25, 16:09   Link #2278
synaesthetic
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Quote:
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And yes, I command you to write that AU now
After Nena's story is done. ^^;
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:03   Link #2279
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Some guys on the WMG page at TVTropes suggests that the Wolkenritter were originally humans living in ancient Belkan times, absorbed by the Book of Darkness and turned into a defense program.
That's always been my assumption. Watching Fate get slurped up by the Book provides good fodder for that, and it at least suggests how it was that Rein Ein was able to put them out there, then disconnect them from herself as independently functioning entities.

Quote:
The logical conclusion to this is that Signum was originally a true Belkan Knight, and Agito was originally her Unison Device. ^^;
Not that part, though, though it is kind of sweetly nostalgic to think so.
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Old 2009-07-25, 19:00   Link #2280
synaesthetic
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I've learned long ago to be very suspicious of coincidence in fantasy or sci-fi media. I always liked Agito, so I was glad to see her get with Signum after Zest died.

Zest dying made me sad; that dude was a badass motherfucker. I knew he'd die, he was on borrowed time anyway, and we got to see a lot of him doing very badass things before he died, but in that pink bishoujo ghetto that is the Nanohaverse, it's refreshingly awesome to see a tough manly man kick some ass. ^^;

Despite not being a man, Signum was the next best thing--she had badass to spare, and Agito only increased the output.
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