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Old 2009-07-23, 21:59   Link #1701
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullchukka View Post
Spoiler for Question and speculation about red truth in general:
There is no true confirmation on their absolute truth aside from the people in the game who accept it as such and use it as such. What is debatable, at least for most of the players, is the interpretation. While the red truth does describe a truth, the truth is subject to interpretation, and that's where the total meaning of the red is still debated.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:05   Link #1702
Marion
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Truth is changeable yes, but I don't like the theory that all red is false. Red text is really the only help we get in solving these mysteries, because of all the magical alterations. If red text turns out to be a trick and void then I would be mad, because then anti-fantasy believers have no real information at all. The idea in introducing red text is to give Battler some footing, otherwise he really has no chance against Beato because she can alter any scene he sees in meta-world.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:16   Link #1703
Jan-Poo
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Actually Bern said that this game is very unfair, so I am expecting a bad trick somewhere, something that will make us facepalm. "The red truth is a lie" theory wasn't bad, it could explain a lot of things, but I think I've proven this is not the case.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:18   Link #1704
MeoTwister5
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If the red is a lie then Battler has no way of winning unless he gets to investigate the events of each game himself and purely without any alterations or involvement from Beato.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:21   Link #1705
Ssol
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Red text is also tricky because when the red text is used that could be the truth at that time but that truth can change over time if if it describes a status.

Example:

There are no more than 18 people on this island.
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead.
Natsuhi is dead.
Hideyoshi is dead.
George is dead.
Rudolf is dead.
Kyrie is dead.
Rosa is dead.
Maria is dead.
Genji is dead.
Shannon is dead.
Kanon is dead.
Gohda is dead.
Kumasawa is dead.
Nanjo is dead.
The 15 people mentioned are dead.
Battler is alive.
Eva is alive.
Jessica is alive.


These describe the CURRENT status of those people. People get confused when they try to link those CURRENT status elements with past events such as:


neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo!
Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him


If the CURRENT status of all the people would have been confirmed PRIOR to the murder of Nanjo then it would have logically been impossible.
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Old 2009-07-23, 22:27   Link #1706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually Bern said that this game is very unfair, so I am expecting a bad trick somewhere, something that will make us facepalm. "The red truth is a lie" theory wasn't bad, it could explain a lot of things, but I think I've proven this is not the case.
The red truth is a double edged sword used by both anti-fantasy and anti-mystery sides. If it were a lie then there would be no weapon to decide the winner of the game. And I agree that Bern is most likely hiding something...
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Old 2009-07-24, 04:10   Link #1707
Skullchukka
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Hmm fair enough. How about Red truth does not exist, it is only for confusing people. Or even Things I say in red sometimes are true, sometimes are false.


After all, she IS a witch, so no reason to trust her never ever ever again (after finishing EP 3... >_<' )
Or IS she? O.o
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Old 2009-07-24, 04:38   Link #1708
Ithekro
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What if it is simpler than that. Perhaps it is only the red text that Beatrice uses...and no one else's...that is true.
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Old 2009-07-24, 07:15   Link #1709
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullchukka View Post
Hmm fair enough. How about Red truth does not exist, it is only for confusing people. Or even Things I say in red sometimes are true, sometimes are false.


After all, she IS a witch, so no reason to trust her never ever ever again (after finishing EP 3... >_<' )
Or IS she? O.o
While the theory of "the red truth only tells lie" was brilliant in itself, (because by knowing what is an absolute lie you still have a way to understand the truth), this second theory doesn't provide any help and would render the red truth completely useless. Of course I have no argument to deny it, except for the fact that it would be pretty lame.

A more common theory, as you can see by the other posts, is that the red truth is subjected to interpretations. See for example the fact that Beatrice in ep2 and ep3, uses external (not red) definitions of closed room and traps. Those are not absolute definitions, proof is the fact that Beatrice once said "I'll add that to the closed room definition". So the red truth is absolute but the very word's definitions it uses aren't absolute... you get the picture.
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Old 2009-07-24, 08:58   Link #1710
Skullchukka
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Yeah, "Things I say in red sometimes are true, sometimes are false." doesn't make much sense. Well It could, but I'd expect a more "WTF" moment from the answer arcs itself.
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Old 2009-07-24, 14:14   Link #1711
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
People get confused when they try to link those CURRENT status elements with past events such as:


neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo!
Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him


If the CURRENT status of all the people would have been confirmed PRIOR to the murder of Nanjo then it would have logically been impossible.
My favorite reds are the contradictions...

Quote:
Eva was with you the whole time. So committing a crime was impossible for her. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching over her actions carefully. No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious! In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room.

Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board! Therefore, I can also say this. The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human! A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes! However, the human may have been able to use magic. ......Which means, it was a witch.
So uh...
a "witch" is human.
a "witch" gets to be excluded from the red?

Basically the case she's making is for a 19th person that is human and yet doesn't count... if that makes any sense. Doesn't prove witches so much... it does kind of prove some kind of exception to the red, though.
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Old 2009-07-24, 22:44   Link #1712
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I think of the Rokkenjima massacre as a section of reality that is put into Schrodinger's box. Once inside, numerous possibilities will occur all resulting in the tragedy, but in different ways. As such, the gameboards are formed.

Picture a linear timeline, the line never diverges or fuse with other lines (parallel universes). On Oct. 4 to Oct. 5 of 1986 on Rokkenjima however, the single line splits into an infinite number of parallel lines until they merge together again when the seagulls cry. In other words, at 24:00 or 0:00 of Oct. 6 the box opens to reveal the results. Think of those infinite lines as the infinite number of boards, the limitless number of scenarios Beatrice could pull off to prove the existence of witches to Battler. One major advantage that we, the readers, have over Battler is that we see part of what's inside the opened box in Ange's future.

In the past 2 games, each board resulted in a different future. As long as the box remains closed, the truth remains as a jumble of infinite lies. Only until the box is opened can one of the lies turn into the truth. As of Ep 3 and Ep 4, we have been revealed the future that resulted from the opened box. As soon as we are shown the future, the box opens and the previous truth gets replaced by a new truth. This is why the red is so important.

In a world of infinite lies, the red becomes a beacon that tells the result of the opened box. A red statement said on any board only applies to the one single board that remains once the box has been opened. What this means is that it becomes possible to manipulate the events of the board to seemingly contradict the red truth. Once logic fails, one has to accept a higher power, in this case, witches and magic.

Consider this
..

A child finds a fork in the road, one path leads to heaven while the other to hell. Of course, this situation only contains 2 possibilities as opposed to the infinite that we are dealing with, but the same concept applies. Say that the child leaves this to chance and flips a coin to decide where he is to go, heads represents the splendor of heaven and tails entails the suffering of hell. Now he flips and covers the result with his hand or a convenient box. At this specific moment, we have no idea where his fate lies, thus both options alone are lies. Only a jumble between heaven and hell represents the truth. Let's leave this for now and fast forward into the future, we find the same child enjoying breakfast in heaven. Immediately we would know that the result was heads without even seeing that it was indeed heads.

Now that we know the child ended up flipping heads, it becomes possible for us to play "witch" and rewind to the child before opening the box. We see a stranger and lift him into a godly perspective where he can see both possibilities and their respective futures. Say we take him to the parallel world where the child flipped tails and we tell the stranger this absolutely true statement in red "the child flipped heads and since you cannot explain this, witches and magic must exist". To the stranger, the present event of the boy revealing a tail-up coin is definitely the truth, however, that truth is rendered obsolete by the definite future where the boy flipped heads. Like Bernkastel said, a future truth will always replace a truth in the past.

So even if Eva-Beatrice outlines such an intricate web of red surrounding Nanjo's death and while it may seem to contradict all possible logic, we can still claim that witches do not exist. Since the red never lies, if that is the case, then the parallel world itself must be a lie. Nanjo was indeed killed by human X under the restrictions of the red statements, it's explainable because the events of this world is a lie and the red only applies to another world.
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Old 2009-07-24, 22:59   Link #1713
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If you just mean that the things that Battler is shown are unreliable, that was demonstrated pretty definitively in EP3 anyway. But it seems like you're really advocating ignoring everything other than the red in order to piece together the "real truth" and that all the red applies simultaneously... well, I wonder where that gets you?

I suppose it could be checked whether the red agrees between games, but something tells me it's not going to do so cleanly.
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Old 2009-07-24, 23:12   Link #1714
Ssol
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So if red text is used without specific reference to which parallel universe it applies to then it cannot be trusted as the implied red truth for a given universe being discussed?
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Old 2009-07-24, 23:13   Link #1715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
If you just mean that the things that Battler is shown are unreliable, that was demonstrated pretty definitively in EP3 anyway. But it seems like you're really advocating ignoring everything other than the red in order to piece together the "real truth" and that all the red applies simultaneously... well, I wonder where that gets you?

I suppose it could be checked whether the red agrees between games, but something tells me it's not going to do so cleanly.
I'm not going to ignore anything before they arrive on the island on Oct. 4 and everything from Oct. 6 and on. Plus, even though the gameboards are most likely far off from the truth, they might end up being a combination of part truth and part Beatrice's illusions. But you're right, the red is the only thing that I'll trust.
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Old 2009-07-24, 23:18   Link #1716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
So if red text is used without specific reference to which parallel universe it applies to then it cannot be trusted as the implied red truth is only for the true universe?
Fixed it for you...

In general though, yeah, but only to me. You might have a different interpretation. I find this the easiest way to explain everything.
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Old 2009-07-25, 08:03   Link #1717
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
If you just mean that the things that Battler is shown are unreliable, that was demonstrated pretty definitively in EP3 anyway. But it seems like you're really advocating ignoring everything other than the red in order to piece together the "real truth" and that all the red applies simultaneously... well, I wonder where that gets you?

I suppose it could be checked whether the red agrees between games, but something tells me it's not going to do so cleanly.
I've been trying that, but it doesn't work. The red truths from different games are incompatible.
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Old 2009-07-26, 04:23   Link #1718
ferthepoet
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After reading episode 3 and not yet being able to go through all this thread I have the following observations and questions

1. one thing that bothers me about Battlers explanation of beatrice back story (that she was a baby Kinzo raised after the original Beatrice comitted suicide) is that Beatrice stated that she never give in to Nanjos advances which would mean Nanjo raped the first Beatrice also its kinda pushy that the baby would survive when the mother comitted suicide in a plce without access to medical facilities).

To me the Anti-fantasy version of the history sounds morel ike Kinzo found a way to clone Beatrice....its sci fi but its still Anti Fantasy

2. When Beatrice states that there are only 18 people in THIS Rokkenjima I understand to mean the same that when Rika talked about THIS Hinamizawa meaning there could have been more than 18 people in episodes 1 and 2 and also the next episodes...... wanted to ask people who understand japaneese if this is the correct implication

3. The final attack of red had me overwhelmed the only thing I have left is that Kannon real name might be Kinzo or Genji (the other names would be to weird for he to have) allowing Beatrice to state that Kinzo or Genji are definately dead without referring to the person we know as Kinzo and Genji...

Also I was wondering whether nanjo is first a name or a family name.... if it is a family name there is alos the possibility that Kannon or Shannon are children of Nanjo who he abandoned at Kinzos orphanage allowing for Beatrice to misleadingly state nanjo is dead.

Would probably post more thought tomorrow morning
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:25   Link #1719
Kaisos Erranon
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I don't understand why everyone seems to like Ep.3 the most.

Spoiler for the ending:


That is all.
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Old 2009-07-26, 05:32   Link #1720
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't understand why everyone seems to like Ep.3 the most.

Spoiler for the ending:


That is all.
Spoiler for Response:
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