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Old 2009-07-24, 17:25   Link #1281
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman
IIRC not even Dullindal's pawns had a lot of positive things to say... Even Shinn & Rey agreed with it only because it was Dullindal's plan and they would do anything to further his plans... Most of the ZAFT people had doubts about it
Hey pretty much everyone thinks the DESTINY PLAN was stupid (especially how it's explained and demonized in the show itself)...But for as stupid as it was, it still had no immediate power to do anything to the point Team Clyne suggested...

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Watch the show again - nobody said anything positive about the Destiny Plan other than Durandal and his pawns.
Now let’s be fair…I never said Billions of people agreed with him, just that if he wanted a plan such as DESTINY to work, millions, if not billions of people WOULD HAVE HAD TO support the plan (Because of the invasive nature of the plan essentially—Also that this was not close to the threat Lacus magically made it seem)….With that said he had clearly been shown to be someone a majority of Earth and Space were willing to listen to if not follow…It is only after he tries to destroy Orb with a giant laser that he ultimately lost his credibility…Even attacking Orb who was hiding Djbril was more than a fair element he could use to advance his agenda…Once he went George W. with the laser though, he was cooked (Although the people on Earth who didn’t know this were still on his side)…

Quote:
He did that because his entire plan up until that point was ruined beyond repair, and so intimidation was the only recourse left to him.
Again, until the point he fired Messiah’s hot-spring of youth @ Orb he wasn’t ruined beyond anything….His plan was set, and people would have had to accept it or reject it, because by threatening them @ laser point (Before he fired on Orb) would have countered every move he made in the show up to that point…Dullindal wanted a smooth implication, but obviously Team Clyne had other ideas…


Quote:
You do realize that there's a vast gulf of distance between "not fully understanding a character" and "not understanding a character", right? As a matter of fact, I have a very good idea of what reason Lacus had for doing everything she did or didn't do in Destiny. In any case, just because one doesn't understand a character doesn't make a character "hax". The only thing that can do so is if the only possible explanation for their actions is authorial fiat. Good luck trying to pin that on Lacus .


I think its borderline SOMETHING that the same guy who reads all this deep mysterioso-ness and enigmatic brilliance in a character off-screen such as a Lacus Clyne is the same person who would chide another for characterizing her based on what is shown on-screen…I swear what she did off-screen trumps it all to you…LOL, you are indeed a similar person…You checkerjump over a lot of peoples’ points to reign based on subjective $hit totally found off-screen…I choose to examine the Lacus Clyne we are shown in the series, and that chick my friend, is no Mid 80’s Russian chessplayer…
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Old 2009-07-24, 18:45   Link #1282
4Tran
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Now let’s be fair…I never said Billions of people agreed with him,
Oh really?
Quote:
I guess you forgot the point about a billion fudgin’ people that would have to stand in line at some DESTINY PLAN facility and get their blood-samples or WTFhaveyou-sample taken so it can be determined what job they would be best for…You also must be forgetting that other than Cagali’s Orb and I guess Switzerland, Dullindal had the world on his side to an overwhelming degree…People were screaming his name like a hook from a Micheal Jackson “Feed the World” song…Even after Messiah was Yamato’d it was shown that people were still on earth pissed that ZAFT had lost…
Do note that Durandal had precisely zero supporters for his plan outside of his circle of followers. Look, if you want to make arguments, go ahead and make them. But please don't write such easily refutable falsehoods.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
just that if he wanted a plan such as DESTINY to work, millions, if not billions of people WOULD HAVE HAD TO support the plan (Because of the invasive nature of the plan essentially—Also that this was not close to the threat Lacus magically made it seem)….With that said he had clearly been shown to be someone a majority of Earth and Space were willing to listen to if not follow…
While it's true that for the Plan to have a reasonable chance of working, it had to enjoy a broad spectrum of support. However, this support wasn't just weak, it was basically nonexistent (how the heck do you construe this as "willing to listen" anyways). Given that he still tried to force it through, it does speak volumes about his personality and the stark choices everyone else had.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
It is only after he tries to destroy Orb with a giant laser that he ultimately lost his credibility…Even attacking Orb who was hiding Djbril was more than a fair element he could use to advance his agenda…Once he went George W. with the laser though, he was cooked (Although the people on Earth who didn’t know this were still on his side)…
I'd agree that attacking Orb was within Durandal's perogative, as was attacking Lacus. However, doing that kind of thing will also make his own head fair game. But my point that you're trying to refute (I think) was that Durandal needed to have Meer in order to have much chance of implementing the Destiny Plan properly. Once, that plot fell apart, Durandal had nothing left, and so he abandoned all that he had accomplished and went with intimidation. This is an entirely reasonable chain of events as opposed to your claim that it's unreasonable.


And quit that supercilious strawman trick. It brings up precisely no points, and it doesn't further your argument one bit. If you want to make general complaints, at least try to back them up with some semblence of examples.
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:31   Link #1283
FriedRice84
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Oh really?

Do note that Durandal had precisely zero supporters for his plan outside of his circle of followers.
Very true. Duranadal pretty much only had his circle of followers that supported him. Orb and the Kingdom of Scandinavia flat out rejected him right away. The Atlantic Federation, which pretty much represented a 1/4 of the world, tried to question him and look what happened to their president - vaporized without even so much as a word being exchanged. Hell, the PLANTS and the Council were pretty much like "WTF?" When Durandal announced the Destiny Plan, the entire PLANT Supreme Council were caught off-guard. They thought he was going to make a memorial announcement for the victims of the Requiem by Djibril. After Durandal's announcement of the Destiny Plan, he pretty much attacked by his own accord. He no longer went through the Supreme Council. I could go even further and say that the ever faithful puppet, Shinn, was starting to doubt the Destiny Plan - which he did until Rey re-brainwashed him.
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Old 2009-07-24, 23:50   Link #1284
4Tran
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Moved posts regarding Lacus' assassination attempt to the Lacus' Assassination (Redux) thread.

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Originally Posted by FriedRice84 View Post
Very true. Duranadal pretty much only had his circle of followers that supported him. Orb and the Kingdom of Scandinavia flat out rejected him right away. The Atlantic Federation, which pretty much represented a 1/4 of the world, tried to question him and look what happened to their president - vaporized without even so much as a word being exchanged. Hell, the PLANTS and the Council were pretty much like "WTF?" When Durandal announced the Destiny Plan, the entire PLANT Supreme Council were caught off-guard. They thought he was going to make a memorial announcement for the victims of the Requiem by Djibril. After Durandal's announcement of the Destiny Plan, he pretty much attacked by his own accord. He no longer went through the Supreme Council. I could go even further and say that the ever faithful puppet, Shinn, was starting to doubt the Destiny Plan - which he did until Rey re-brainwashed him.
Pretty much. Although to be fair, the President of the Atlantic Federation was going to attack Durandal no matter what he said. Underlying the Destiny Plan was the fact that PLANT was still at war with everyone else, and none of them had any particular reason to stop fighting.

In fact, this would apply more to Durandal than anyone else. At that point in time, he was in the greatest of danger. Much of his governing support had been derived from Clyne supporters - now that Lacus had denounced him as a fraud, that support was soon to evaporate, and PLANT was likely to devolve into civil war. The only way he had of forestalling that was to quickly eliminate Lacus and implement the Destiny Plan. If he failed at either, Lacus' supporters were likely to bring him down sooner or later, and all of his planning would be for nought.
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Old 2009-07-27, 13:45   Link #1285
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Well that was a nice little Friday news-dump…Multi-quote posting alert! (_(
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Oh really?

I said he had the world on his side, not that the world agreed with THE DESTINY PLAN…My only point was that if he were to pass something like the DP he’d need the support of millions if not billions…C’mon man get it together…
Quote:
Do note that Durandal had precisely zero supporters for his plan outside of his circle of followers. Look, if you want to make arguments, go ahead and make them. But please don't write such easily refutable falsehoods.
Please note that I never said he did, just that he had the political capital to bring this plan (however dumb or flawed) to the people. Secondly, as if it were a spinning record, listen to the hook: ♪♫ “Get your $hit together…wingdarkness never said that…” ♪♫


Thirdly (Since you’ve screwed this up twice), with pointy-thing scraping against chalk-board as I explain, Dullindal had the support of millions, if not billions with pretty much only Orb and Switzerland being clearly against him (Him being the Zaft-Faith military after the death of Djbril)…To get the DP passed he would need the support of millions, If not billions…Do you get it now? These things aren’t completely exclusive…It just shows you the political capital he had to ATTEMPT at getting the DP passed…Which on a scale makes Lacus “OMGBBQ we he must be pure evil” ridiculous (When like you said, maybe he’d have no-support)…That’s my point, the DP couldn’t do $hit without support therefore it’s not an imminent threat...Maybe the 3rd time is the charm with you….


Quote:
While it's true that for the Plan to have a reasonable chance of working, it had to enjoy a broad spectrum of support. However, this support wasn't just weak, it was basically nonexistent (how the heck do you construe this as "willing to listen" anyways). Given that he still tried to force it through, it does speak volumes about his personality and the stark choices everyone else had.
Again, no point…I’m really not disagreeing with this…You’re agreeing with Lacus’ motivation for going after Dullindal based on some scribble in a notebook… I’m saying that Dully had an actual vehicle in place to try and start the DP, unlike Lacus who had nothing but an omnipotent Mary Sue moment to go against him….Yet she’s just as smart and cohesive as him? Dully had put together a super world-wide campaign in his favor; it was team Kira’s unstoppableness that “forced” Dully to go bat$hit in the end…I can’t even blame him…

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I'd agree that attacking Orb was within Durandal's perogative, as was attacking Lacus. However, doing that kind of thing will also make his own head fair game. But my point that you're trying to refute (I think) was that Durandal needed to have Meer in order to have much chance of implementing the Destiny Plan properly. Once, that plot fell apart, Durandal had nothing left, and so he abandoned all that he had accomplished and went with intimidation. This is an entirely reasonable chain of events as opposed to your claim that it's unreasonable.
Jesus man, where are you getting this stuff? I really never mentioned Meer…I’ve never said much beyond if Dully wanted the DP passed he would need support from millions, if not billions…Thru his actions all the way until he snapped and tried to destroy Orb and his own men, he still had a platform with these same millions, and billions of people to potentially implement his plan....Even after Meer was known as a fraud, Djbril’s immediate destruction of the Plants shifted the public support overwhelmingly in Dully’s favor STILL…That’s why Dully is smiling his a$$ off after Djbril gets vaporized because it gave him even more fuel to go ahead with his campaign (So Meer didn’t matter after the Plants got hit—she may have helped initially, but the urgency of Djbril’s actions gave Dullindal, in his mind [hence the smiling], an even better chance at his endgame…

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And quit that supercilious strawman trick. It brings up precisely no points, and it doesn't further your argument one bit. If you want to make general complaints, at least try to back them up with some semblence of examples.
What you call “supercilious”, I call creative writing, and as long as I have an audience that agrees, I’ll keep churning it out…You’re really like clockwork with the “strawman this, strawman that $hit…” It should really be your catchphrase…This isn’t PBS, this is public access, so I’ll always reserve the right to be cool and flashy while still debating fairly intelligent…My debating you doesn’t negatively suffer much, trust me…
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Old 2009-07-27, 19:52   Link #1286
4Tran
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wingdarkness, you seem to think that I'm treating you unfairly. Very well, I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself - please substantiate your statement:
Quote:
Thirdly (Since you’ve screwed this up twice), with pointy-thing scraping against chalk-board as I explain, Dullindal had the support of millions, if not billions with pretty much only Orb and Switzerland being clearly against him
Please tell me who exactly was speaking up in support of the Destiny Plan, and give me episode numbers and timestamps.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:14   Link #1287
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
wingdarkness, you seem to think that I'm treating you unfairly. Very well, I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself - please substantiate your statement:

Please tell me who exactly was speaking up in support of the Destiny Plan, and give me episode numbers and timestamps.
I think he's referring to the fact that millions/billions support Dullindal personally (i.e. he has political capital), rather than the Destiny Plan itself. That is quite evident in the show itself...

Its kind of like Obama and health care in the US, I guess. Millions support Obama personally, but many of those who happen to be skeptical about his health care plan (such as Democrats in Congress) have no choice but to keep supporting it nevertheless.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:21   Link #1288
4Tran
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I think he's referring to the fact that millions/billions support Dullindal personally (i.e. he has political capital), rather than the Destiny Plan itself. That is quite evident in the show itself...
I don't think so. That "Orb and Switzerland[sic]" were brought out as examples suggests that this is specifically about the Destiny Plan.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:32   Link #1289
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I don't think so. That "Orb and Switzerland[sic]" were brought out as examples suggests that this is specifically about the Destiny Plan.
Orb and the Kingdom of Scandinavia were against the Destiny Plan, sure, but they were also the two countries that stood against Dullindal and his ideals throughout the show, so I don't see why you are making that assumption.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:37   Link #1290
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Orb and the Kingdom of Scandinavia were against the Destiny Plan, sure, but they were also the two countries that stood against Dullindal and his ideals throughout the show, so I don't see why you are making that assumption.
That goes for the EA as well, but that country wasn't listed for some reason . The only reason anyone would specifically mention Orb and Scandinavia together (and only them) was because they were shown to be allied in opposition to the Destiny Plan.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:39   Link #1291
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That goes for the EA as well, but that country wasn't listed for some reason .
Atlantic Federation, you mean The Eurasian Federation supported Dullindal for much of the second half. As did the Republic of East Asia.

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The only reason anyone would specifically mention Orb and Scandinavia together (and only them) was because they were shown to be allied in opposition to the Destiny Plan.
They're also the only two countries who are completely devoted to Lacus and Cagalli. And you know who those two have been against for much of the show.
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Old 2009-07-27, 20:47   Link #1292
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
I think he's referring to the fact that millions/billions support Dullindal personally (i.e. he has political capital), rather than the Destiny Plan itself. That is quite evident in the show itself...

Its kind of like Obama and health care in the US, I guess. Millions support Obama personally, but many of those who happen to be skeptical about his health care plan (such as Democrats in Congress) have no choice but to keep supporting it nevertheless.

This is how I see it too.

Great analogy between Dullindal/Destiny Plan and Obama/Health Care plan - I really think that it fits.

Dullindal was quite popular with a lot of people - both in the PLANTS and even on Earth - by the time that he revealed the Destiny Plan.

The general mood I got from everyone other than Orb, the Kingdom of Scandinavia, the EA heads, and the Kira/Clyne faction was...

"This idea is kind of shocking and freaky... but if Dullindal thinks it's a decent idea, it might be worth a shot".

No, not even Shinn was full-blown supportive of the plan, but since the Chairman was behind it...
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:19   Link #1293
4Tran
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Atlantic Federation, you mean The Eurasian Federation supported Dullindal for much of the second half. As did the Republic of East Asia.
The EA is synonymous with the Atlantic Federation. In the show, it's rare for any of the characters to feel the need to make a distinction between the two.

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They're also the only two countries who are completely devoted to Lacus and Cagalli. And you know who those two have been against for much of the show.
No, I don't know who they've been against. Cagalli was fairly concilliatory towards PLANT even after Orb was invaded; she certainly didn't try to pin everything on Durandal. It was Lacus who was certain that Durandal was her enemy, but she doesn't speak for either Orb or Scandinavia.

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The general mood I got from everyone other than Orb, the Kingdom of Scandinavia, the EA heads, and the Kira/Clyne faction was...

"This idea is kind of shocking and freaky... but if Dullindal thinks it's a decent idea, it might be worth a shot".
From where do you get the feeling that anyone wanted to give it a shot? It hardly seems to be supported by the show save for a few odd characters like Shinn.
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:31   Link #1294
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@ 4tran -

brightman totally and easily gets what I'm saying...SO, I'm saying what he's saying...

Orb and Scandinavia (It was Switzerland in my head for some reason) were shown as pretty much (outside Djbril's faction) the only entities within the show that wasn't showing support for the guy...If not handcuffed with the premise that Kira and Lacus just being together had enough to destroy him (or his endgame for peace) he may have tried to introduce the plan much more gradually, but with them on the horizon it obviously hastened his plans (This is the sense of "forcing" I'll agree with)...Once even Shinn and Rey were dispatched like a monitor-bug, he snapped and tried to destroy Orb and his own men...THAT's when everything went sour...There's no way to live that down, or edit that clip...Political capital plummets...

Dullindal's philosophy as it's presented in the show is that of a man who wants to end war...Be it by deception, be it by some sort of modified fascism or socialism, whatever (Now we all know it stems from Talia leaving his a$$ so that she could have a kid, but he's classic break a few good-eggs to get an omelet everyone can live and eat)...To me it would appear totally against his character to aim his laser AT THE WORLD and tell them to take a flu-shot or die...That's why the DP as the bane to Team Kiracus was beyond terrible, and that's why I can never understand your incredible support for Lacus Clyne's deduction skills on this with the subset being Dullindal "forcing his plan" by imminent threat of death (The "forcing" I won't agree with)...That pretty much goes against everything he tried to establish to get to the point where he could introduce a DESTINY PLAN...

Quote:
From where do you get the feeling that anyone wanted to give it a shot? It hardly seems to be supported by the show save for a few odd characters like Shinn.
Ya see this is the stuff I don't understand from you...The show gives loads of sentiment showing the world's view of Dully via ZAFT-FAITH and how his popularity builds throughout the show to that end (To the point that he can even introduce something this radical)...This is shown, yet you put more stock in off-screen calculations of a Lacus than the stuff that's right in front of you...Strawman once again I know, but doesn't make it any less true...Where did we get the feeling?? I just don't get it, how could you not get the feeling that the world was supprting this guy overwhelmingly...
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:33   Link #1295
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I think the reaction to the Destiny Plan by the people of Earth and the PLANTs were more of shock, confusion, and maybe even a little bit fear. The counties of Orb and Scandinavia outright rejected it, the Atlantic Federation wanted him to answer some questions and the rest of the world was hesitant.

The thing is, if Durandal did have the support of millions, he wouldn't have had the need to build something like Messiah. Durandal was already predicting that he would have enough opposition to the Destiny Plan that he would require a fortress that came equipped with a nuclear cannon. He also wouldn't have had the need to repair the Requiem. Durandal had planned to forcefully remove any opposition to the Destiny Plan from the very beginning.

While it might be true that vaporizing Orb and Scandinavia off the face of the Earth might've brought everyone into line, it would've been at too high of a cost. It's the lives of millions of innocent people who wanted to live their lives as they see fit. The argument could be made that the sacrifice of a few millions lives to bring peace to billions justifies the means but it's not better than what Blue Cosmos and LOGOS were doing. They thought that the world would be more peaceful if Coordinators didn't exist, so they set about trying to destroy the PLANTs. It's still essentially the same as wiping out Orb and Scandinavia so they don't stand in the way of the Destiny Plan.
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:36   Link #1296
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wingdarkness, still no examples? You do realize that this means that your claims are worthless, don't you?
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:40   Link #1297
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From where do you get the feeling that anyone wanted to give it a shot? It hardly seems to be supported by the show save for a few odd characters like Shinn.
When they were showing the reactions of various groups of people to Dullindal's plan, the general reaction (aside from the exceptions I listed) struck me as one of shock and awe. The sheer magnitude (or at least the sheer perceived magnitude) of Dullindal's plan left many in surprise.

I don't recall anybody (outside of the those already anti-Dullindal) saying immediately after Dullindal released his plan - "Wow, what an awful plan! This guy has to be stopped!". Heck, even our Atlantic Federation George W. Bush stand-in was taking time to reason it out...

People were clearly in awe of the Destiny Plan, and stepping back for a second to try to take it all in, and come to a calm reasoned out assessment of it.

Of course, the actions of both sides - Dullindal's side and Kira/Lacus' side - was so quick and furious in taking military action in the immediate aftermath of Dullindal revealing his plan that nobody not already solidly pro or con the plan had enough time to come to a personal conclusion on it. Who knows what the millions - or the billions - of people would have decided?

What we do know is that Dullindal had become Obama-esque in his popularity through out the world for taking down Blue Cosmos after successfully getting almost everybody to believe that Blue Cosmos was like a conspiracy theorist's wet dream conception of the Illuminati. Given the weight of that popularity behind Dullindal, I can see a lot of people eventually going along with him when it came to the Destiny Plan.
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:41   Link #1298
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When they were showing the reactions of various groups of people to Dullindal's plan, the general reaction (aside from the exceptions I listed) struck me as one of shock and awe. The sheer magnitude (or at least the sheer perceived magnitude) of Dullindal's plan left many in surprise.
To be awed by a plan does not indicate that one is supportive of it. To be supportive, one has to say good things about it.
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Old 2009-07-27, 21:54   Link #1299
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wingdarkness, still no examples? You do realize that this means that your claims are worthless, don't you?
And your worthless, unfair debating skills (tactics) continue...Neither brightman or tripleR agreeing with my sentiment here interests you...We're just pulling this $hit from the rafters...

Example: The F-ing show WE ALL WATCHED which shows Dullindal gaining world-support throughout his schemes and the gradual progression to that end before unveiling the DP...A plan I never said the world was supporting, but only that he, himself had support from the world ..Jesus Skywalker man...you're so smart you lap yourself...

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To be awed by a plan does not indicate that one is supportive of it. To be supportive, one has to say good things about it.
Yet you're awed by a girl who was awed by some scribbles in a notebook called DESTINY PLAN to the point she's Dully's greatest foe because of it...Obviously there's no convincing someone special such as yourself...
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Old 2009-07-27, 22:01   Link #1300
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The Desinty Plan held promise, IMO. After a long series of battles (with a 1-year-or-so break in between), many people are now willing to try anything in an attempt for lasting peace. While most did not openly support the Plan, they hold an at-worst neutral attitude (and at best, "why not?"). Also, Durandal has made his point: the Requiem IS a big stick, and he has no qualms about using it.
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