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Old 2009-07-27, 12:14   Link #1741
ghost_zero5
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Eh, I thought by the end it was extremely clear, and it had been fairly obvious even before that point that Beato's actions later on were a trick based on what Virgilia had said. In fact, the real surprise was that Virgilia had apparently been playing him all along, too.
Actually, I am still not sure how far Virgilia has been playing along.
After all she helped Battler extremely regarding that fight and Virgilia told Beato the strategy afterwards. Not to mention that if Virgilia wouldn't have helped Battler, he very likely would have already surrendered at that point.
And also what she said was that she seem to have helped Battler to much and therefore gave Beatrice this strategy.
What is more in Ep4 she also said that she hopes that Battler doesn't surrender after what happened until that point in Ep4.
What is strange is the point that she tried to force Battler to sign that contract. Why would she help Beatrice in forcing him to sign it. Also: I wonder would that contract even be effective, if he had signed it under force - actually he wouldn't even have signed it, only has hand would have done the writing.
So maybe that was why she tried to force him instead of persuating him.

However, especially the point regarding her helping Battler to much and therefore should help Beato a bit and that she helped Battler in the first place makes it sound like she wants them to be evenly powered. If that is the case, wouldn't she most likely work for Lambdadelta? After all that witch wants an endless tie between the two parties.

Btw.: Yeah I also think that it was pretty clear in the end that Beato tricked him and therefore I didn't even need to know the strategy. Wasn't that obvious in the end?
Actually, I was already a bit "confused" or "on defense" when Kinzo said that Beato was always looking for him. To say it this way was just too strange. Also Virgilia said that Battler denies evil witches and therefore she could try it with being a good witch. She never said that she actually has to be a good witch and a personality doesn't change so fast, so actually I should even have seen this coming earlier but it also took me until the signing point.
But I noticed once Kinzo (I believe it was Kinzo) that he should sign that Beatrice is a witch and that Battler acknowledges this. Once I heard this line, I knew what was going on here. Even Battler seemed to have noticed it with this line.
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Old 2009-07-27, 12:48   Link #1742
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Actually, I am still not sure how far Virgilia has been playing along.
After all she helped Battler extremely regarding that fight and Virgilia told Beato the strategy afterwards. Not to mention that if Virgilia wouldn't have helped Battler, he very likely would have already surrendered at that point.
And also what she said was that she seem to have helped Battler to much and therefore gave Beatrice this strategy.
What is more in Ep4 she also said that she hopes that Battler doesn't surrender after what happened until that point in Ep4.
What is strange is the point that she tried to force Battler to sign that contract. Why would she help Beatrice in forcing him to sign it. Also: I wonder would that contract even be effective, if he had signed it under force - actually he wouldn't even have signed it, only has hand would have done the writing.
So maybe that was why she tried to force him instead of persuating him.
I think Virgilia had to help Battler a little to gain his trust. If she didn't the whole strategy couldn't work. And then again if you are completely anti-fantasy then Virgilia doesn't exist, she's just a puppet in Beatrice's little magic theater.
It is also speculated that Virgilia actually tricked battler since the beginning by saying false things when exposing the crime scenes.
It is particularly infamous the case of the boiler room, that was labeled as "closed room" by Virgilia even though in Ep1 that room had a back door with absolutely no lock on it. Battler just trusted Virgilia and no red truth was used to state it was actually a closed room.

The odd thing is Lambda's behavior in the end. She said she would help Battler or Beatrice depending on who's losing ground. In Ep2 Battler was utterly defeated and so Lambda gave a little help to Battler. However in Ep3 Lambda seems to think Beatrice was more on the losing side. It is true that Ange in the end saved the day, but wasn't Beatrice just a step from the victory? Why Lambda thought Beatrice wasn't seriously trying to win?
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Old 2009-07-27, 13:03   Link #1743
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Yeah that point is strange (regarding Beato not being serious enough). I guess that this method might was too odd for her..? Then it would be more like saying I don't want you to win that way.
However, I think that Beato wouldn't have won without Ange either as Battler already resisted in signing the "contract" and so even if he would have been forced to sign it by using his hand, he wouldn't actually have signed it according to his own will and therefore it would be worth nothing.

Regarding Virgilia: Though it is true that she needed his trust but even so, if she hadn't helped him, he would have surrendered with nearly 99%. If he hadn't she could still have contacted and help him.
He probably already trusted her more than enough after the fight.
Also: It was still her mentioning that strategy later.

Regarding the "closed boiler room": The question is, if this is still the same in Ep3 but yeah she could have mislead him here. Furthermore, the question is if the second there can be opened from both directions like some house doors only open from inside and not from outside. This also makes a difference because then he also would have needed a key to get inside. Of course, not for getting outside though. So if there would be a key left inside it would be no problem to crush this closed room (if the door would be that way).

And as I stated Virgilia said in Ep4 that she hopes that Battler doesn't give up but isn't this exactly what she would want to achieve, if she completely works for Beato? Of course, it could be fake information but Battler shouldn't have heard it, so that being fake would make not much sense at all.

Also this is just another possibility. I mean her not being completely on Beato's side.
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Old 2009-07-27, 13:31   Link #1744
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this is ep3 thread do not mention ep4 here, not even in spoiler tags.

Quote:
Regarding Virgilia: Though it is true that she needed his trust but even so, if she hadn't helped him, he would have surrendered with nearly 99%. If he hadn't she could still have contacted and help him.
He probably already trusted her more than enough after the fight.
I don't think Battler would have surrendered that easily. Remember he's like a phoenix. After ep2 he was totally crushed and yet he became stronger than before, obviously that strategy couldn't work anymore. Even if Beatrice somehow managed to get him back as he was at the end of ep2, I'm sure he would have recovered. So Beatrice tried a completely different approach. Once she decided that, even if she spotted a way to win in the regular way, her mind was already set, or probably she was so much anticipating the final strike of her strategy that she couldn't afford Battler to fall before that.
Is it why Lambda was angry? Maybe that's why, maybe that's because Beatrice was so concentrating in "having fun" with her strategy that disregarded some good moves to win.

Quote:
Regarding the "closed boiler room": The question is, if this is still the same in Ep3 but yeah she could have mislead him here. Furthermore, the question is if the second there can be opened from both directions like some house doors only open from inside and not from outside. This also makes a difference because then he also would have needed a key to get inside. Of course, not for getting outside though. So if there would be a key left inside it would be no problem to crush this closed room (if the door would be that way).
I don't really think it is possible that the mansion is different in the various games. Until this point at the very least any info we got seems to confirm that rokkenjima and the various houses are the same. That door was certainly opened from the inside in EP1 plus if it has no lock it can't be closed either way.
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Old 2009-07-27, 14:49   Link #1745
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Battler would have surrendered that easily. Remember he's like a phoenix. After ep2 he was totally crushed and yet he became stronger than before, obviously that strategy couldn't work anymore. Even if Beatrice somehow managed to get him back as he was at the end of ep2, I'm sure he would have recovered.
But only after hearing from Lambdadelta regarding Rosa.
But yeah he very likely would have recovered but he still probably would have had problems explaining the fight and even if not: If Virigilia would show up a short amount after recovering or just before recovering, it should still work in her favour.

And regarding further statements I would probably have to continue the discussion at least in ep4 thread but as said: I don't say that she is actually on Battler's side. Actually, I won't even deny the possibility for her being completely on Beato's side either but I have my doubts. One thing seems to be clear: She definitely is not completely on Battler's side.

But I guess we won't find out her intentions before at least ep5.
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Old 2009-07-27, 15:03   Link #1746
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IMHO, virgilia is on beatrice's side., lambdadelta is on the loser's side. that's what the info that we have been given points out to.
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Old 2009-07-27, 15:07   Link #1747
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Well: No, it seems to be that way currently with some hints throughout all eps that don't make it seem like she is completely on Beato's side BUT in any case nearly all info that was not stated in red could be wrong
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Old 2009-07-28, 01:00   Link #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think it is possible to make a sense out of magic events...
Not to call you out per se, this just made me feel like ranting about magic. FWIW, Ryukishi is staying pretty true to occult sources and symbology.

Actually, this is kind of fun, from a translation of the portion regarding the summoning of the 72 demons:

Spoiler for Ronove.:

If you're into MegaTen or Persona games I'm sure you'll recognize names like Forneus, Berith, Ose, etc. Hyuga-chan I'm looking at you.

Kind of an aside, but I've been meaning to tl;dr about 'white' vs 'black' magic, as I understand it in my relatively limited knowledge of the occult, and the definition Ryukishi seems to be going off of. First off try to forget any Disney BS for right now, there is no inherently good or evil magic. White magic can kill, and black magic can save. The distinction is that one goes against the grain, the other goes with it, if that makes any sense. One is based more internally, in 'love' or divinity, and works in conjunction with the natural order. The other is rooted in 'power' for the lack of a better word, and has more to do with bending the natural order at/to the will of the caster. Might make more sense with an episode 4 example.

Shannon's (I think) resurrection in episode 3 sums it up relatively well, either way; the example being the difference between yanking someone out and knocking politely. The thing is, given the nature of 'white' magic... on some level, Beato would have had to truly believe in what she was doing... else it shouldn't have worked.

I was actually really concerned Ryu07 was going to ditch the white magic theme altogether... but... that's a different thread. I'm still hopeful 'true' witch is the direction Beato's character goes eventually, either way.
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Old 2009-07-28, 07:08   Link #1749
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(27.) RONOVE. - The Twenty-seventh Spirit is
Ronove. He appeareth in the Form of a Monster.
He teacheth the Art of Rhetoric very well and
giveth Good Servants, Knowledge of Tongues,
and Favours with Friends or Foes. He is a Marquis
and Great Earl; and there be under his command
19 Legions of Spirits. His Seal is this, etc.
It doesn't say anything about baking good cookies
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Old 2009-07-28, 07:15   Link #1750
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Yeah but I bet the description of Gaap doesn't say that it has scantily clad clothing.
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Old 2009-07-28, 07:38   Link #1751
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Uh, Kitsu? Wrong thread?
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Old 2009-07-28, 08:18   Link #1752
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SHooT!
Will correct that right now.
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Old 2009-07-28, 10:14   Link #1753
maximilianjenus
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Originally Posted by HigurashinoUmineko View Post
Yeah but I bet the description of Gaap doesn't say that it has scantily clad clothing.
It does now, at least on wikipedia
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Old 2009-07-29, 09:47   Link #1754
Alair
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That was interesting... Plenty of sudden and quite unexpected stops with the story then rushing off in a completely sideways direction. The witch duel pretty much broke the silly meter, then Eva's ascension as the new witch was quite cool, not to mention her following derangement with it, Beatrice's change of heart was rather less welcome and I'd all but given up hope it was just a trick by the end.

The only thing I'm really left scratching my head at, though that's probably really just because it was the last thing that was really thrown at me, is whether Eva-Beatrice was really a separate entity from Eva or not. Her needing to sneak out of her room to kill Rosa and Maria along with the fact we never saw them both in the same place seems to imply that they had the same body (as well as her Eva-Beatrice form reverting to regular Eva-still-complete-with-shotgun once her glamor had been blown away) but if that's the case, how was she free to act as the witch in the final arc when Battler was keeping an eye on her?

And pretty much every single bit of my intuition was shouting that Ange = Beatrice up from the point she started talking with her aunt the end. Add Lambadelta's talk about the miserable condition she found "Beato" in originally, the occasions on which it seems to be implied that she might actually look quite different than how she does now, and her fixation on Battler and all the signs seem to match. Even her attack failing could be easily explained as a natural paradox in attempting to curse herself. A time warp's a necessary thing to incorporate somehow but... well, at least I'll have a pet theory to go into ep 4 with.
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Old 2009-07-29, 09:54   Link #1755
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Well ... the point of the game is of course, to prove that witches don't exist. If they don't exist, then "Eva-Beatrice" wasn't real, but a representation of some repressed part of Eva that was given a great deal of power after she found the gold. Battler HAS to explain how Eva might have been able to kill most of the people in order to win the game.

What you are shown in the game is not necessarily what is happening. The more and more Battler has to struggle to explain things from an "anti-fantasy" standpoint, the more and more "magic" invades the story, corrupting what we are shown. How Nanjo and Jessica were killed when Eva was with Battler is probably one of the biggest mysteries in Ep 3, of course.
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Old 2009-07-29, 10:01   Link #1756
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And that's assuming that many things in Ep3 are true, and that it isn't just one massive mindraping farce.
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Old 2009-07-29, 10:58   Link #1757
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It would have been pratically impossible or Nanjo's murder since Eva-Beatrice denied all the theories i had with the red. Man, the red kills >_>
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Old 2009-07-29, 11:11   Link #1758
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Nanjo's murder is definitely possible; only 3 suspects are possible though;

Spoiler for Possibility:
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Old 2009-07-29, 12:15   Link #1759
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Actually... now that I think about it, it is interesting Eva-Beatrice would go so far with the red text and not just explicitly red say "He was killed by a witch"... Beato had a reason but I don't think it'd apply to Eva-Beatrice who should presumably be just fine with a stalemate.

Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-07-30, 08:27   Link #1760
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Spoiler for Nanjo's Death:
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