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Old 2009-07-28, 16:12   Link #2581
mendokusa
めんど草
 
 
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that is this thread's purpose.
become from notihng to 4 class,from 4 to 3 ,from 3 to 2 ,and iIt's 1class.
hahaha(^_^)b
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Old 2009-07-28, 16:33   Link #2582
nikorai
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Raigaさん
Quote:
Oh, and I apologize for not responding in Japanese
いえいえ、気にしない。
もちろん、日本語で答えて頂けたら有り難かったです。
とにかく、コメントありがとうございました。

Quote:
my production capability is currently nowhere near my comprehension level.
どうして?大丈夫!試してみましょう。

Quote:
it's unfriendly towards novices
Yes, of course you’re right about making the thread user-friendly. I absolutely agree with you. But then, looking at the last comments I came to realize that I’m actually the one who knows Japanese worst of all here. You could say that I hardly know it at all because I never studied it properly.

ということで、日本語が一番苦手な人は私です。

And then, we have at least 4 people here who live in Japan, with at least two native speakers. iLney-san and you seem to have no problems with understanding Japanese either.
So I couldn’t resist saying a few words in Japanese myself. 

= 自分も日本語で何か言いたくてたまらなかったのです。

Quote:
I've had exactly zero formal study
Oh, same boat, same boat!

mendokusaさん

さあ、今の翻訳はどう思う?
=>In the eyes of the lover, pockmarks are dimples.

Quote:
these sentence is not ことわざ, but 慣用句(kann・you・ku)
慣用句はそんなことですか。


慣用句は四字熟語のような表現ですね。もちろん、他の表現がたくさんあります。たとえば、「暖簾に腕押し」 のことです。

Quote:
"love is blind(恋は盲目)"is difference from ”あばたもえくぼ”.
でも、それらの表現は意味が類似していますね。
実は「諺」と「慣用句」は意味に近いだと思います。
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Old 2009-07-28, 16:46   Link #2583
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
iLney-san and you seem to have no problems with understanding Japanese either.
Ohhh no, not me. I just know a good online dictionary/grammar guide and have good language instinct (being bilingual beforehand helps, not to mention my second language being Chinese, which helps even more). My vocabulary is abysmal compared to yours (just judging by the amount of words I had to look up) and I've still got a lot of grammar I know I need to cover.
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Old 2009-07-28, 16:48   Link #2584
mendokusa
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just first used ,pockmark and dimples.
pockmark is bad thing,dimples is good thing.
so,
In the eyes of something ,bad thing is good thing.

"暖簾(norenn)に腕(ude)押(o)し"is ことわざ
あばたもえくぼ is 慣用句
ことわざis in instruction of living.
but both of sentence are idiomatic,hard to part it.
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Old 2009-07-28, 17:17   Link #2585
nikorai
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Raigaさん
Quote:
I just know a good online dictionary
Surprisingly, I also happen to know a good online dictionary.
But knowing Chinese should be a great help, actually. I'm so far away from both Chinese and Japanese that I had to start from scratch. The fact that I know English and French doesn't help at all.

Quote:
I've still got a lot of grammar I know I need to cover.
Yeah, I'm looking through this green (see above) guide to 2-kyuu exam and I understand that I'm far far away from it. It's kind of upsetting.

mendokusaさん
Quote:
just first used ,pockmark and dimples.
pockmark is bad thing,dimples is good thing.
はい、分かりました。
でも、この表現は恋という言外の意味があります。

OK, I thought 暖簾に腕押し was an idiom(慣用句) because you can't literally push a noren. And it is in my dictionary of idioms. But maybe the expressions we discussed are both 'kotowaza'.
Quote:
but both of sentence are idiomatic,hard to part it.
Yes, you're right here. その点は異論ありません。I won't argue anymore.
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-07-28 at 17:38.
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Old 2009-07-28, 17:39   Link #2586
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
mendokusaさんの翻訳は正しいけど、それは着翻訳です。

言い換えれば、「love is blind」とも言えます。「アバタもエクボ」ということは諺ですからね。
この場合、完全分は「it couldn’t be that love was blind」になります。

Mystiqueさん

でも、人が日本語で話すことができるのがこのスレッドだけです。英語で話す気分があったら、他のスレッドが たくさんあります。それはただの私見です。悪く思わないでね。
実にこのスレッドの最後のページは楽しそうです。日本語のメッセージがいっぱいありますからね。意味を取る ためには頭を使わないとダメです。英語の翻訳があったら、そんなに面白くなかったと思います。
でも、皆さん、質問があったら、いつでもどうぞ聞いてください。できるだけで答えてみます。

日本語で自然にスラスラと話せるのは難題ですね。
上手になるために教科書の練習とか会話とかするしかないです。
英語の説明は練習ほどそんなに役に立たないと思います。

ところで、ローマ字が大嫌い。
日本語を勉強すると、仮名と漢字を習わなきゃいけない。
漢字の読み書きに使えば、むしろ日本語の言い回しと単語の数を増やした方がいいです。
うわぁぁ、旨く言いました!、ニコライさん、俺は同じも思います.誰でもが日本語の深刻に読み書きの習えば 、も同じ思う. 俺の漢字読みも文法もに比べ仮名見劣りがします. でも頑張ります.自今で宜しくお願いします

Well...sorry my vocabulary and comprehension is very low....and I have to look for words in dictionary for writing each sentence...please correct my sentences and teach me on the way...

@ nikorai san....I literally took 10 minutes to read your single post...because I'm unfamiliar with many words (with kanji)....but it was fun...I get to learn more vocabulary if not kanji...although I might not remember them all but they will tick in sometime...

Also I wanted to ask...what software do u guys use to type kanji....I can type kana but not kanji and punctuations...I need some software where I can type kanji as well...becuase copying and pasting from dictionary is taking lot of time....
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Old 2009-07-28, 18:25   Link #2587
mendokusa
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to nikorai
I read the book,but include ことわざ.

I can think that ことわざ is a kind of 慣用句.
慣用句 mean unusual ward used much.

Quote:
うわぁぁ、旨く言いました!、ニコライさん、俺は同じも思います.誰でもが日本語の深刻に読み 書きの習えば 、も同じ思う. 俺の漢字読みも文法もに比べ仮名見劣りがします. でも頑張ります.自今で宜しくお願いします
to sonotme_9FedriqSama
助詞:”~も”、”~に”、”~が”etc
助詞 is too many,and is only after noun.

again without right.
俺は同じく思います。誰でももっと日本語の読み書きを習えば、と同じく思う。俺の漢字の読みも文法に比べて かなり見劣りがします。これからもよろしくお願いします。

"深刻" used in bad situation."もっと" used in every situation.
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Old 2009-07-28, 19:06   Link #2588
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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ありがとうメンドクサさん。覚えます。
これからも宜しくお願いします。

Again how do you type kanji's?? well jap keyboard is different....mine is UK keyboard....and I can't seem to input kanji in word directly

@慣用句 (kanyouku): common usage; idiomatic usage
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Old 2009-07-28, 19:46   Link #2589
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonotme_9FedriqSama View Post
Again how do you type kanji's?? well jap keyboard is different....mine is UK keyboard....and I can't seem to input kanji in word directly
Wait, you have an IME installed? Usually it's just, once you've typed in the hiragana reading, you press the space bar to convert.
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Old 2009-07-29, 00:24   Link #2590
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
でも、人が日本語で話すことができるのがこのスレッドだけです。英語で話す気分があったら、他のスレッドが たくさんあります。それはただの私見です。悪く思わないでね。
実にこのスレッドの最後のページは楽しそうです。日本語のメッセージがいっぱいありますからね。意味を取る ためには頭を使わないとダメです。英語の翻訳があったら、そんなに面白くなかったと思います。
でも、皆さん、質問があったら、いつでもどうぞ聞いてください。できるだけで答えてみます。

日本語で自然にスラスラと話せるのは難題ですね。
上手になるために教科書の練習とか会話とかするしかないです。
英語の説明は練習ほどそんなに役に立たないと思います。

ところで、ローマ字が大嫌い。
日本語を勉強すると、仮名と漢字を習わなきゃいけない。
漢字の読み書きに使えば、むしろ日本語の言い回しと単語の数を増やした方がいいです。
確かに日本語で会話するのは僕たちにいい練習になると思いますが、このスレは元々一番簡単な日本語を教える 為にたてられました。しかし、日本語を初めて学ぶ人にはこのような難しい日本語を話すことがまだ早いと思う ので、色々な人に何も役に立たないと感じます。僕たちが難しい日本語を使って話していると、解らない人たち はまったく参加できなくなってしまいます。その人たちには話題も簡単に解るはずがないのに、それでもその話 題に質問ができると思いますか?

このスレにいる皆が日本語に興味を持っていることは疑っていませんが、自分のものさしで人を測ってはいけま せん。

While I certainly do believe that this would be good practice for some of us, this thread was created with the purpose of teaching the simplest Japanese. However, I think that this level of Japanese is too difficult for beginners, so I don't think it'll be useful to them at all. Since we're speaking with a certain amount of proficiency in Japanese, those who can't understand are left unable to participate in the conversation. Do you still expect them to participate even though they're unable to understand the topic at hand?

I don't doubt that everyone here is interested in learning Japanese, but you shouldn't expect others to be at the same level or learn the same things as you.
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Old 2009-07-29, 03:32   Link #2591
Doraneko
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突然に駆け込んですみません。

残念ながら何だか話題は 「Learning Japanese」 から別の方向に逸らしてしまったようですね。せっかく良い雰囲気になりましたのに。

個人的な意見ですが、このスレのタイトルが 「Learning Japanese」である限り、難易度を問わず、「Learning Japanese」に関わるあらゆる質問、感想、討論などでも妥当なのではないでしょうか。と言いますのは 、初級の質問でも高級の質問、英語の発言でも日本語の発言でも適切なわけです。

成り行きで日本語書き込みばかりになったのが、別に誰のせいでもないように思われます。もしまた簡単な質問 があったら、きっとここの住人の皆様が親切に説明されるでしょう。

確かに、この論争が一部のメンバーに不快の気持ちをさせてしまったので、「Learning Japanese (日本語書き込み限定)」のようなスレを立てて、そして日本語書き込み希望の方がそちらにご移動頂ければ、 いかがでしょうか。ただ、「難しい話題だから、ここには禁止すべきだよ!」という呼びかけには、恐れ入りま すが、いかにも賛成しかねます。

失礼な発言でお詫びいたします。以上ご検討頂ければ幸いです。


Sorry for hijacking this thread.

It is disappointing that a thread with the title "Learning Japanese" ended up discussing trivial stuff like this when we had a really good discussion atmosphere.

IMO, as long as this thread is called "Learning Japanese," any question, comment, discussion relevant to "Learning Japanese" should be allowed here. Of course they include questions of any level of difficulty, as well as relevant discussions conducted in English and in-depth discussions conducted in Japanese.

It is by no means anyone's responsibility that the number of Japanese posts has increased recently (they are relevant discussions after all). I also think that if there are simple questions again being asked here, everyone will try their best to answer them instead of shoving the posters away.

But it is also true that some members are not happy with the recent developments here. Maybe we can set up a thread like "Learning Japanese (日本語書き込み限定)" and continue the discussions in Japanese there? However, I am afraid I cannot support the idea that all difficult discussions should be banned here.

Please let me apologize if anyone is offended by my message. I would appreciate if the above could be considered.
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Old 2009-07-29, 04:29   Link #2592
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doraneko View Post
But it is also true that some members are not happy with the recent developments here. Maybe we can set up a thread like "Learning Japanese (日本語書き込み限定)" and continue the discussions in Japanese there? However, I am afraid I cannot support the idea that all difficult discussions should be banned here.

Please let me apologize if anyone is offended by my message. I would appreciate if the above could be considered.
There is already an Advanced Japanese thread that can be used for this. It's a few pages back.
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Old 2009-07-29, 06:37   Link #2593
mendokusa
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If you wanna write many thing in japanese,you might send me private messages.
or talk to me on MSN messanger.
because of too many japanese, beginners go away from this thread.

It's whatever is about japanese that I wanna answer.
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Old 2009-07-29, 09:40   Link #2594
Doraneko
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Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
There is already an Advanced Japanese thread that can be used for this. It's a few pages back.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the confusion probably stems from the all encompassing thread title of "Learning Japanese."

If it is renamed as something else like "Learning Japanese (Novice)" or "Learning Japanese (Beginners), everyone should become clear enough about whether they should be posting here or that Advanced Japanese thread you have suggested.

But before that happens, I still find it unfair to ban people from posting relevant stuff here just because it is "too difficult ".
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Old 2009-07-31, 06:20   Link #2595
mendokusa
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Here,ask how to translate sentence or word.
Why don't you do only simple question?
In 上級's thread ,ask question deeper than it.
how about this?
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Old 2009-07-31, 18:30   Link #2596
Hurricanez
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hmm. nice guide.

but if you understand japanese words yet, go to google and search japanese dictionary.

it will help. desu.
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Old 2009-07-31, 20:40   Link #2597
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
Here,ask how to translate sentence or word.
Why don't you do only simple question?
In 上級's thread ,ask question deeper than it.
how about this?
That's fine.
If you want to have an idea of what this thread has been like, all you have to do is have a look quickly at the 125 pages (not all, but check a few)
For example:
Feburary 2009
You can explain something in Japanese, you can break down the grammar here too, that's fine.
However if someone wants to investigate more into the history and linguistics, then the 上級 is fine; you can write pages and pages of Japanese, and it doesn't matter. Those who want to learn more can read there.
Those who want a light answer, can read in here.
It's not so much 'how do I break the levels', it was just the content.

Me personally, what I didn't like as tempting as it is sometimes, was not only the questions and answers, but comments as well being purely in Japanese. Maybe perhaps if the thread kinda took a tone like that from the start, it wouldn't bug me, but as someone mentioned earlier, you see walls and walls of kanji for a 'learning thread' (typically beginners or quick questions) and it can be totally off putting or intimidating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai
Mystiqueさん

でも、人が日本語で話すことができるのがこのスレッドだけです。英語で話す気分があったら、他 のスレッドが たくさんあります。それはただの私見です。悪く思わないでね。
実にこのスレッドの最後のページは楽しそうです。日本語のメッセージがいっぱいありますからね 。意味を取る ためには頭を使わないとダメです。英語の翻訳があったら、そんなに面白くなかったと思います。
でも、皆さん、質問があったら、いつでもどうぞ聞いてください。できるだけで答えてみます。

日本語で自然にスラスラと話せるのは難題ですね。
上手になるために教科書の練習とか会話とかするしかないです。
英語の説明は練習ほどそんなに役に立たないと思います。

ところで、ローマ字が大嫌い。
日本語を勉強すると、仮名と漢字を習わなきゃいけない。
漢字の読み書きに使えば、むしろ日本語の言い回しと単語の数を増やした方がいいです。
^
That for example, since it's personally directed at me, you could have written on my profile, or since this is a learning thread, you could have romanised it, or translated it.
To answer you main points though...
1: This thread and the upper level thread are two places you can write in Japanese without admins getting on your back.
However there is a 'learning Japanese' social group and there are your private walls. I'm sure you can communicate in Japanese as much as you like without any problems.

2: We're all from all over the world, English is an international form of communication, even for learning other languages. Like I said earlier, read the earlier pages of this thread to get an idea of how Japanese and english has been used to teach and explain.

3: You think the last few pages of this thread cause it's purely been in Japanese are fun cause you then have to read, whereas I don't, we beg to differ.
To translate is a true form of learning and an extreme use of mental concentration, trust me as someone who's using translation as a way to learn. It also takes time and effort on your end to interpret into english for others and perhaps it's also courtesy too.
Again while it's good to dive into Japanese only for reading and writing practice, then if that's your cup of tea and the social groups or 上級 thread may not be enough, shouldn't you be looking to joining jp only forums that teach to foreigners too?

4. Agreed on the note that romaji sucks, lol.
Then again there are people who are serious about learning Japanese in here, there are some who are just beginning.
There have been many many who read the english and see our explanations and get inspired to learn and use this thread for advice for textbooks, classes, schemes, and so on.
It's not just purely a Q&A session, and I see it a shame to lose that inspiration from someone with zero knowledge or reading skill cause it's all in paragraphs of kana.

If you want to practice reading and writing, by all means use your profile walls and knock yourselves out, by then you can have private convos, ask anything you like and improve. Some may have seen me and Rio shooting back and forth in kana/kanji behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean I'd go into kana if I was replying to a post of hers in this thread.

Since this is open to the entire board on the general chat section, it was kinda nice to have the main form of communication as english and use Japanese for examples or breaking down rules or patterns.
At least that way, anyone from any level can read it, understand it and perhaps enjoy it.
That was the atmosphere I felt with the thread earlier, hence to see it derail from it kinda bugged me and I made a note a few days ago.
I may feel alone in it, though I guess that's just the way I answer questions and explain things to people, it's usually through interpretation and translation of both languages.

Now gonna leave it back to mendokusa's amazing help to you all as well as the rest of the members. Ive entered a stage in my life where sadly I cannot lurk around Asuki all day and answer stuff like I have been able to (for most threads in GC lately), so anyone who has time to offer and help, is appreciated ^^

以上です.
Will stop here on this matter now.
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-07-31 at 21:03.
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Old 2009-07-31, 21:46   Link #2598
sushiboy
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proper order for hirigana

so what is the proper order for hirigana? like A B C D E... Is it AIUEO Ka Ki Ku Ke Ko and so on? anyone have any really spectacular PDF files for learning hiragana that they could share? Thanks in advance!
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Old 2009-07-31, 22:02   Link #2599
Raiga
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We've got a very fine Learning Japanese thread.

Uh... geez, I dunno if I remember the hiragana ordering (I know, for shame). Lemme see:

あいうえお
かきくけこ
さしすせそ
たちつてと
なにぬねの
はひふへほ
まみむめも
や ゆ よ
らりるれろ
わ   を


Lemme check that... okay I mixed up the na and ma lines but I've corrected that now.
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Old 2009-07-31, 22:07   Link #2600
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Here you go
Link

You could have easily googled or even checked on wiki for that, but from the link, you can see the various tables and websites.
As for writing order for hiragana... well when this gets merged in the 'learning japanese' thread, others may know of some good links.

Good table for you is here:
Table
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