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Old 2009-07-30, 17:57   Link #141
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk View Post
I agree with you.
Think Luffy and Zoro are equals, it just one's the Captain and the other one is not. I don't based character strengths and looks. Luffy and Zoro aren't even in my top 3 favorite characters. I believe that Luffy and Zoro are equals based on that info in Bold Print. And the fact Zoro inevitable defeat of Mihawk who is a Yonkou-level Pirate is more proof.

Zoro and Sanji ARE NOT near-equals. That's been made pretty clear in the manga. When Sanji and Zoro do fight, neither one of the are serious. Based on the opponents they receive, its evident Zoro is much stronger and stronger Willed then Sanji. Zoro was even shown using Haki (in the CP9 Battle), something only him and Luffy has been shown to use (within the Strawhats)
You agree with the canon.

Rock on....
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Old 2009-07-30, 18:15   Link #142
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Well, it's getting hot in here huh
Oda is just... Oda. Amazing storyline, WB just continues to impress me (have to wonder how strong Roger was), and about his DF he did crack the air, hasnt he? So I dont think it is limited to the earth. Oh yeah, loved the insight of marvelB about WB's laugh and his DF (Gurararara...). I love the admirals look, it's so baddass, especially Kizaru. Akainu remembers me of KoF, dont know why. And he does look older than the others (maybe not that much 'cus of his tatoo).

About Ace, I have to agree that he became what he is now 'cus of his DF. I mean, we only saw him fighting with it (he even had a boat that moved 'cus of his skill), and the chapter which says about his non DF skills, it clearly says in the past when he did not have his DF. I dont think that after receiving his powers he would train his non DF skills (IMO it would be useless to do so). However, it's not like he would be useless without it, but it wouldn't be the same Ace I respect. And Luffy has to have THE BEST track record (he is the protagonist ). If someone mentions that Ace has WB, Luffy has Shanks and Dragon (beat that ). Anyway, what happened to Ace's freckles?

And finally, Luffy and Zoro. They may be equal in strenght but I still believe that in a fight, even Zoro being a swordsman, Luffy would manage somehow to knock him out, maybe Gear 2+Gear 3+Haki... I just believe in him .
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Old 2009-07-30, 18:22   Link #143
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maybe mihawk will jump up and break the tsunamis with 2 slashes
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Old 2009-07-30, 18:41   Link #144
Change of Pace
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Damn, this chapter just made my life. Seriously, Oda, way to be PERFECT. <3 I'm especially loving the Whitebeard action and his relationship with Ace. While the Strawhat pirates share a bond that's based on very, very close friendship, the Whitebeard pirate have a distinctive family bond - presumably because of Whitebeard's age and insistence upon calling new recruits his sons. So to see another possible type of crewmate relationship, outside the norm of the Strawhats' default that we're accustomed to, is truly intriguing and touching. That said, Blackbeard's betrayal takes on an entirely new meaning - when he mutineed, Blackbeard wasn't just abandoning Whitebeard's ship and killing another crew member. He essentially committed fratricide.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:01   Link #145
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Quote:
Zoro and Sanji ARE NOT near-equals. That's been made pretty clear in the manga. When Sanji and Zoro do fight, neither one of the are serious. Based on the opponents they receive, its evident Zoro is much stronger and stronger Willed then Sanji. Zoro was even shown using Haki (in the CP9 Battle), something only him and Luffy has been shown to use (within the Strawhats)
Quote:
Oda thinks this as well. Oda delibrately used the concept of douriki to place the crew on specific levels. Luffy is stronger than Sanji or Zoro, and Sanji and Zoro are nearly equal. Obviously this is not a definitive level system (it was more of a joke than anything, and only was useful for setting up the future fights), but it is canonical evidence that Oda ranks Luffy as being more powerful than his two top crew mates.
Lol.

Besides, when did Asura = haki? Stop using speculation as evidence!

If thats the case, then Diable Jambe could well be haki as well..
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Last edited by paradox13; 2009-07-30 at 20:17.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:13   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
You agree with the canon.

Rock on....
Except that the book doesn't say that Zoro is as strong as Luffy.

I posted this on page 6, but it seems people missed it:
Quote:
Actually it doesn't say Zoro is as strong as Luffy. Its saying that Zoro has high battle capability like Luffy. Its just saying both of them has high battle capability, you can even include Sanji in the same sentence.

The exact line says: "Having a high battle capability like Luffy, he will be the first to dash forward when needed."
@Asura, its actually Sakki (killing instinct), but because it comes from Zoro's will, it still shows that he has a very strong will, despite not being Haki. He was able to manifest his Sakki into something almost physical, showing 2 extra heads and 4 more arms and 6 more swords.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2009-07-30 at 20:46.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:30   Link #147
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^Capability = Ability to perform..It's the same thing.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:44   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
^Capability = Ability to perform..It's the same thing.
Actually, C.A.'s quote indicates only that Zoro and Luffy (and Sanji) are strong. Consequently, there is no real indication that Zoro is as powerful as Luffy.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:46   Link #149
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When fighting grunts, Luffy and Zoro will appear to be as strong as each other, because they are extremely powerful. They are said to have 'high battle capability', it is a general statement and a measure of their physical strength.

Only when fighting an opponent like Lucci, it will differentiate Luffy and Zoro's strength. Zoro can take a whole lot of beating and blood loss, but at his level can he take on opponents Luffy has faced?

Luffy is able to shrug off his pain and injuries easily after sleeping and eating meat, he puts on his smile all the time. Does he hide his pain from his crew? Is he really that strong?

When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he did so because he wanted to know how much his captain took. He wanted to know how much stronger his captain was to him. And after taking it, he never recovered back to his full strength, it shows that Zoro does not have as much strength as Luffy yet, the strength of his determination, or Haki. Zoro learnt how much more his captain bears for the crew than himself, Zoro wants to know how strong this man he chose to follow is.

In the first place Kuma showed Zoro Luffy's pain because he wants to show Zoro just how great of a captain Luffy is. Luffy was a captain who willingly bears burden for his crew. Zoro accepts it because he wants to help his captain bear part of the burden, which he shows that he can't do so yet, becoming weak and failing to protect the crew against Kizaru.

But this is not a bad thing for Zoro, as it will greatly aid his character development. Now that he has realised Luffy's strength, he will grow greatly to match his captain.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:49   Link #150
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we'll never really know unless they fight to the death in the manga which i dont think will happen, at least not soon.

I believe Zoro can defeat luffy simply because swords > rubber

"When Zoro took Luffy's pain, he did so because he wanted to know how much his captain took. He wanted to know how much stronger his captain was to him. And after taking it, he never recovered back to his full strength, it shows that Zoro does not have as much strength as Luffy yet, the strength of his determination, or Haki. Zoro learnt how much more his captain bears for the crew than himself, Zoro wants to know how strong this man he chose to follow is."

your logic is either flawed or you just didn't read the chapter correctly.

1) zoro was already seriously dmged. Kuma mentioned this. He said zoro doesn't have much life left and if he takes on luffy's pain/fatigue he would die. However, zoro didn't die, he even remained standing. He proved Kuma wrong
2) luffy recovered seriously fast after the battle with moria because Kuma took away all his damage and gave it to zoro.

I'm sure if luffy was the only guy up and all his crews were down and Kuma wanted Zoro's head, Luffy would do the same.
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:56   Link #151
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Quote:
Luffy is able to shrug off his pain and injuries easily after sleeping and eating meat, he puts on his smile all the time. Does he hide his pain from his crew? Is he really that strong?
I thought him being a rubber make a difference on how he feels pain?
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Old 2009-07-30, 20:57   Link #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
I thought him being a rubber make a difference on how he feels pain?
Does that not add to his strength? Just like Zoro's strength is his swords?
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:04   Link #153
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now i think about it.

Kuma can just teleport and repel both tsunamis.. hahah
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:04   Link #154
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Quote:
I believe Zoro can defeat luffy simply because swords > rubber
Your logic is flawed. By your logic, that would mean Zoro > everyone, because swords > everything. In fact, using your logic, I would deduce that Zoro > Mihawk because obviously 3 swords > 1.



Stop talking crap.

Besides, even if Zoro could beat Luffy because of this advantage, it wouldn't mean that Zoro is stronger then Luffy. Some fruits / weapons have an inherent advantage over others; this isn't an indication of the person's strength.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:06   Link #155
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Did I read it correctly that Ace was offered a position as Shichibukai?
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:08   Link #156
kakakka
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Quote:
Does that not add to his strength? Just like Zoro's strength is his swords?
Well yeah...

Though I'm thinking in different view. I mean you're comparing how Luffy feels pain and how Zorro feels pain. I'm seeing here that Luffy is being better since he can hold on to his pain more than Zorro. But isn't unfair to based it like that since one has built in immunity and the other has not; The other feeling less pain from pain that could kill the other?


(Meh, I dunno if I typed it clear...)
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:12   Link #157
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I am.
It's always courteous and respectful to back up your claims with some kind of reasoning. A simple "I am" doesn't quite suffice, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Turn Croc into glass
Listen. If Ace's flames were as powerful and hot as you claim they are (and the evidence in the manga suggests otherwise), Blackbeard would have most likely been incinerated by them. All he suffered were some minor burns. That level of heat is far from being capable of turning sand into glass.

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
If Moria's Doppler clone was that good, he would have owned that fatigued/weakened Luffy long ago.
Reread the fight, because it's clear that you don't remember the circumstances on how Moria lost.

The funny thing is, Crocodile and Moria get a lot of flak just because they lost already, and are therefore perceived as being weak by a lot of fans; whereas Ace also lost (and pretty badly at that) against Blackbeard, and yet he doesn't get any flak whatsoever. I can call Ace a weakling just because he lost against Blackbeard. Is that true, though? No, it isn't. The point is, it's a fallacious argument to say that someone is weak just because they have a loss on their record, whether it be by circumstantial plot or simply being overwhelmed by a superior adversary.

The impertinence of some One Piece fans really astounds me sometimes.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:15   Link #158
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Quote:
Crocodile and Moria get a lot of flak just because they lost already, and are therefore perceived as being weak by a lot of fans; whereas Ace also lost (and pretty badly at that) against Blackbeard, and yet he doesn't get any flak whatsoever.
I think it's because in case of Moria and Croc, they were glorified by their status first then got beaten by Luffy (a rookie). Compared to Ace, Ace got beaten by Blackbeard (a prodigy) and Ace's glorification came after he got defeated.

Maybe that's why?
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:16   Link #159
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Quote:
Did I read it correctly that Ace was offered a position as Shichibukai?
Yes he was.

Thank god he declined, or else we wouldn't have our lovely animal theme!

Its interesting actually, because he only set off 3 years ago. That would mean he was offered Shichibukai place around 2 years ago. We know that Moria became a Shichibukai 10 years ago, Croc was already Shichibukai 3 years before, Hancock was offered a place 11 years ago and Jimbei joined 8 years ago. So that would mean that since there was a spot open 2 years ago, either Kuma, Doflamingo or Mihawk joined then, unless ofcourse, there used to be more then 7 warlords, in which case the name of the group would not be Shi'chi'bukai.

Quote:
But isn't unfair to based it like that since one has built in immunity and the other has not; The other feeling less pain from pain that could kill the other?
-.-
The fruit is his weapon, just as much as a sword is Zoro's. If a guy fought with a sword and a shield, you wouldn't take it away from him just because it provided him with 'unfair' advantages right?

Thats just dumb. The whole point of comparing characters is to see who wins after evaluating each of their advantages and disadvantages. ..
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:18   Link #160
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Well yeah...

Though I'm thinking in different view. I mean you're comparing how Luffy feels pain and how Zorro feels pain. I'm seeing here that Luffy is being better since he can hold on to his pain more than Zorro. But isn't unfair to based it like that since one has built in immunity and the other has not; The other feeling less pain from pain that could kill the other?


(Meh, I dunno if I typed it clear...)
Well, can Zoro's swords do more than Luffy can now? Can his swords bear as much burden as Luffy does and defeat more opponents than Luffy?

For now, Luffy has defeated stronger opponents and took more damage than the rest of the crew, also stated that he has higher doriki than Zoro, this tells us that Luffy is stronger than Zoro.

While Zoro is said to charge forward whenever there's a need, he still doesn't charge as far forward as Luffy. Its because Luffy charges straight for the toughest boss, he takes it for the crew, its his responsibility as the captain. You can say his personality makes him a reliable captain in a sense, he takes it for the crew and the crew supports him from behind.
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