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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 3 Rating
Perfect 10 75 63.03%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 29.41%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 5.04%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 2.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-07-30, 16:01   Link #181
Anh_Minh
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Also, Amati is exceptional even by the standards of his time. When he was his age, Lawrence was barely starting out as an independent merchant. Amati's well established and very, very good at making money. So he combines the emotional instabilities of youth with the financial power of an older merchant like Lawrence or more.

OTOH, as Horo reminded in ep1, Lawrence did put his very life on the line for her. Is he so different?
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Old 2009-07-30, 18:18   Link #182
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Also, Amati is exceptional even by the standards of his time. When he was his age, Lawrence was barely starting out as an independent merchant. Amati's well established and very, very good at making money. So he combines the emotional instabilities of youth with the financial power of an older merchant like Lawrence or more.
The other point that I am trying to make here is that though Amati may have much talent in the field of merchanting, he lacks experience needed to truly figure out people, and see through deceit.
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OTOH, as Horo reminded in ep1, Lawrence did put his very life on the line for her. Is he so different?
Because Lawrence and Horo had actually had a relationship as friends before, and Lawrence understood much of what Horo has gone through it makes sense logicaly for Lawrence to, not only is she a good friend, but without her, Lawrence's Journey would get much more lonesome. . It's like I would risk my life for a very good friend myself. Amati on the other hand places much of his economic stability on a wager for a girl whom he hardly knows, or understands. The only thing he thinks he understands about her is a complete fallacy, as he has no idea of what she truly is. I believe(correct me if i'm wrong) he really has only known Horo for less than 2 days when he wagers his financial well being on her. Vs Lawrence risking his life for someone whom he has a close emotional bond.


So Finally, so we may get back on track to our original point, though Horo may not FULLY understand what exactly the youth of that day is like, she understands well enough that Amati is a knight, and very idealistic lad whose preconceptions of how a man should treat a women will likely lead to foolish decisions. Because a knight is typically able to protect and serve a weak women, who may not know any better. We do know however, that Horo is a wise and intelligent being, and though she may not understand fully why Amati is spoiling her, she understands enough that herself and Lawrence can use it to their advantage, and make profit from this inexperienced youngster.
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Old 2009-07-30, 19:37   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted View Post
So Finally, so we may get back on track to our original point, though Horo may not FULLY understand what exactly the youth of that day is like, she understands well enough that Amati is a knight, and very idealistic lad whose preconceptions of how a man should treat a women will likely lead to foolish decisions. Because a knight is typically able to protect and serve a weak women, who may not know any better. We do know however, that Horo is a wise and intelligent being, and though she may not understand fully why Amati is spoiling her, she understands enough that herself and Lawrence can use it to their advantage, and make profit from this inexperienced youngster.
Umm one thing is that Horo did not live actively through Knight period thus acting like a Knight has no meaning for her (well technically she lived trough it but practically did not meet any as Knights were nobles and had no interests in remote villages and remote villages had no or very little ideas about Royal court matters and knights in return. Only some rumors at best.

You have to look around 300 AD Roman empire times at least and pick up notions from there. And I doubt you can find that many acting like knights people in there. Rome was starting collapse in all senses, in moral as well.

Thats why Emperor Constantine made Christianity official religion to begin with... he needed some tool to govern during pretty bad times (and religion, Christianity in particular, looked like a good idea).

So Amiati acting like knight is pretty alien to Horo a well, unless you would say that Horo is VERY old and could remember more noble times of Roman empires raising or Athens culture but even then the Knigth (or actual noble) act was different.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:52   Link #184
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*Sigh

I never lived in tht period, yet I still understand trait of knightly and Chivalrous men. The idea of chivalry and knightly things is something that passed through all generations through literature and other stories. Also Horo most certainly knows the traits of knights, or else she wouldn' have talked about Lawrence being like hers when he stood up with the knife.

I still don't understand what you trying to prove though, its pretty obvious Horo knows what shes doing and understands she's leading Amati. I don't understand the point of even bothering to bring up the Roman Empire in this, since her activity traveling during those times plays no importance as she still would have been active through the Dark Ages. It almost seems pointless to try and prove that Horo is the one being suckered by Amati, when even Lawrence, and the worry wart that he is, initially trusts Horo to stay with him through the bet.
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Old 2009-07-30, 21:59   Link #185
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After catching up with the series, I'm totally gob-smacked amazed by this episode. The gut-wrenching ending really puts the screws to the intimate relationship between Horo and Lawrence. There's a time for business, and there's a time for personal affairs, mixing the two can be a combustible nightmare, and Lawrence has crossed that delicate line, jeopardizing his relationship. Exuberant pride can be the downfall of even a king.

Horo's fear of being alone really hit home. She is a social being (wolves are social by nature), and her precious joyous time spent with Lawrence reflects how empty her existence has been, without the presence and company of others. And with no home to return to, a new family would give her that comfort and closeness she would miss. She doesn't want Lawrence's pity. And his objection to give her a child reveals the reservations of his feelings for her and the relationship. There's a line he won't cross with her, apparently. Perhaps he considers consummation with her kind as taboo, and even unclean? Eye-opening moment.
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Old 2009-07-30, 22:19   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted View Post
*Sigh

I never lived in tht period, yet I still understand trait of knightly and Chivalrous men. The idea of chivalry and knightly things is something that passed through all generations through literature and other stories. Also Horo most certainly knows the traits of knights, or else she wouldn' have talked about Lawrence being like hers when he stood up with the knife.

I still don't understand what you trying to prove though, its pretty obvious Horo knows what shes doing and understands she's leading Amati. I don't understand the point of even bothering to bring up the Roman Empire in this, since her activity traveling during those times plays no importance as she still would have been active through the Dark Ages. It almost seems pointless to try and prove that Horo is the one being suckered by Amati, when even Lawrence, and the worry wart that he is, initially trusts Horo to stay with him through the bet.
Horo cannot read. She could not read about that and she cold not hear much from remote villagers as well. The knowledge in that aspect should be pretty lacking. Remember that knight stories were popular and passed among nobles and towns folk, not among small remote village people.

She could not be active during the dark ages because otherwise she wold know about the changes regarding church.

I am arguing that while playing was her intent she is not particularly in control because of her lack of knowledge in this regard.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-07-30 at 22:32.
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Old 2009-07-30, 23:33   Link #187
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Thats why Emperor Constantine made Christianity official religion to begin with... he needed some tool to govern during pretty bad times (and religion, Christianity in particular, looked like a good idea).
Constantine making Christianity official didn't have much to do with morality. Constantine called himself a Christian, but he was still half Pagan in his beliefs.
The story of his conversion to a firey-cross in the sky has different interpretations,
and the earliest versions actually said he was praying to the sun-god for that sign. (later Christian figures changed this to praying to Jesus)
After his conversion to Xtn, Constantine still associated himself with the sun god of ancient Roman myths and "inserted himself" with important figures in Xtnity.

I'd say he did it because it was politically convenient.

The empire didn't really start falling apart until later...
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Old 2009-07-31, 01:18   Link #188
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The other point that I am trying to make here is that though Amati may have much talent in the field of merchanting, he lacks experience needed to truly figure out people, and see through deceit.


Because Lawrence and Horo had actually had a relationship as friends before, and Lawrence understood much of what Horo has gone through it makes sense logicaly for Lawrence to, not only is she a good friend, but without her, Lawrence's Journey would get much more lonesome. . It's like I would risk my life for a very good friend myself. Amati on the other hand places much of his economic stability on a wager for a girl whom he hardly knows, or understands. The only thing he thinks he understands about her is a complete fallacy, as he has no idea of what she truly is. I believe(correct me if i'm wrong) he really has only known Horo for less than 2 days when he wagers his financial well being on her. Vs Lawrence risking his life for someone whom he has a close emotional bond.
He'd known her for what, a week? And he was risking his life. Amati's only risking money. Easy come, easy go. If he takes a financial loss here, he just has to make some more money later.
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Old 2009-07-31, 01:27   Link #189
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Horo cannot read. She could not read about that and she cold not hear much from remote villagers as well. The knowledge in that aspect should be pretty lacking. Remember that knight stories were popular and passed among nobles and towns folk, not among small remote village people.

She could not be active during the dark ages because otherwise she wold know about the changes regarding church.

I am arguing that while playing was her intent she is not particularly in control because of her lack of knowledge in this regard.
Spoiler for Ep 4 I think Also for Volume 4..:
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Old 2009-07-31, 03:16   Link #190
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Myself I am an electrical (degreed) engineer..... yes, I love S&W although there is no electricity in it.
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But there is! Just look at those sparks between Lawrence and Horo! It has more tension than electricity.
Of course, I totally agree. You could energize at least a whole town with that eagerness/voltage between them.

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Originally Posted by Lightly_Toasted View Post
I never lived in tht period, yet I still understand trait of knightly and Chivalrous men. The idea of chivalry and knightly things is something that passed through all generations through literature and other stories. Also Horo most certainly knows the traits of knights, or else she wouldn' have talked about Lawrence being like hers when he stood up with the knife.
...
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Horo cannot read. She could not read about that and she cold not hear much from remote villagers as well. The knowledge in that aspect should be pretty lacking. Remember that knight stories were popular and passed among nobles and towns folk, not among small remote village people.
She could not be active during the dark ages because otherwise she wold know about the changes regarding church.
I am arguing that while playing was her intent she is not particularly in control because of her lack of knowledge in this regard.
From my point of view, Horo is totally in control in case of Amati!
As Lightly_Toasted tried to explain (I guess), although Horo may not know any knights or nobles personally, she is of course familiar with menfolk and how they want to "protect their weak princess". She knows exactly how to push their buttons (especially of the naive ones), and I would bet that this is not the first time that she brings some guy to the point to spend a lot of money/wealth for her and endanger his career.

PS: Horo can in fact read! Otherwise we wouldnt have had this heartbreaking scene at the end of this episode!
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Old 2009-07-31, 10:24   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
Constantine making Christianity official didn't have much to do with morality. Constantine called himself a Christian, but he was still half Pagan in his beliefs.
The story of his conversion to a firey-cross in the sky has different interpretations,
and the earliest versions actually said he was praying to the sun-god for that sign. (later Christian figures changed this to praying to Jesus)
After his conversion to Xtn, Constantine still associated himself with the sun god of ancient Roman myths and "inserted himself" with important figures in Xtnity.

I'd say he did it because it was politically convenient.

The empire didn't really start falling apart until later...
Who said that he made it official because of moral aspect?

He only wanted more control trough it. His belief was never genuine so I do not see a purpose of you pointing this out because it is a well known fact.

Morality (or the lack of it) was one of the aspects that made emperor have problems with control (tough it was minor compared to finances and power structures). It is not as bad as it was later, but it was there already - you can see that in historical sources.

As for Lawrence and Amiati's comparisons - Lawrence's act is even more reckless than Amiati's since as Anh said he was risking is life for her, not just money, for her even though he knew her for short time.
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Old 2009-07-31, 11:32   Link #192
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Um... it was a bet as I recall. He said he'd convert if he won a battle. One of those historical die rolls. The Roman leadership was pretty pragmatic and cynical about religion.

Also, I'm a bit confused here.... Horo is supposedly about 700+ years old. We really don't have a handle on the time period for this series --- the technology, architecture, and economic structures seem to indicate roughly the period when the Medici were in their early ascent (1300-1500?). However, the position of the Church and its scope in the outlying regions seem to indicate and earlier time frame (1100-1300?). That means the Horo was born at the earliest... just after the Roman Empire fell and the roots of the Arthurian legends were beginning to flower. This seems to make the most sense - as well as to assume the author is mixing centuries a little bit. He is, after all, simply writing a good yarn of a tale.
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Old 2009-07-31, 11:43   Link #193
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Um... it was a bet as I recall. He said he'd convert if he won a battle. One of those historical die rolls. The Roman leadership was pretty pragmatic and cynical about religion.

Also, I'm a bit confused here.... Horo is supposedly about 700+ years old. We really don't have a handle on the time period for this series --- the technology, architecture, and economic structures seem to indicate roughly the period when the Medici were in their early ascent (1300-1500?). However, the position of the Church and its scope in the outlying regions seem to indicate and earlier time frame (1100-1300?). That means the Horo was born at the earliest... just after the Roman Empire fell and the roots of the Arthurian legends were beginning to flower. This seems to make the most sense - as well as to assume the author is mixing centuries a little bit. He is, after all, simply writing a good yarn of a tale.
They were all pretty religious - just a different religion.

He did say he would convert, but the idea that he said he would convert to Xtnity comes from later texts written by Xtn scholars. The contemporary texts of his time was more ambiguous.

Constantine after his conversion was still a Pagan-Christian mishmash.

But anywho I don't think we can compare real life time periods with S&W time periods...the development of their society might have been severely impeded.
(ie. technologies or inventions from Islamic or Sinitic civilizations that helped Europe progress in real life)
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Old 2009-07-31, 11:47   Link #194
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Who said that he made it official because of moral aspect?
He only wanted more control trough it. His belief was never genuine so I do not see a purpose of you pointing this out because it is a well known fact.
What is also a well known fact is he is viewed as one of the greatest Christian figures today. Just shows that a lot of the historical/religious figures have two sides to their story.

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Morality (or the lack of it) was one of the aspects that made emperor have problems with control (tough it was minor compared to finances and power structures). It is not as bad as it was later, but it was there already - you can see that in historical sources. As for Lawrence and Amiati's comparisons - Lawrence's act is even more reckless than Amiati's since as Anh said he was risking is life for her, not just money, for her even though he knew her for short time.
The immorality of the Roman Empire has greatly exaggerated...specifically by Christian scholars who wanted to distance themselves from it. The Roman Republic/Empire lasted 1000 years, or 2000 years if you include their successor Byzantines. The average kingdom in Christendom lasted less than 500 years.

The Roman civilization had a pretty good run, but all nations crumble in the end.
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Old 2009-07-31, 14:36   Link #195
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Um... it was a bet as I recall. He said he'd convert if he won a battle. One of those historical die rolls. The Roman leadership was pretty pragmatic and cynical about religion.

Also, I'm a bit confused here.... Horo is supposedly about 700+ years old. We really don't have a handle on the time period for this series --- the technology, architecture, and economic structures seem to indicate roughly the period when the Medici were in their early ascent (1300-1500?). However, the position of the Church and its scope in the outlying regions seem to indicate and earlier time frame (1100-1300?). That means the Horo was born at the earliest... just after the Roman Empire fell and the roots of the Arthurian legends were beginning to flower. This seems to make the most sense - as well as to assume the author is mixing centuries a little bit. He is, after all, simply writing a good yarn of a tale.
Spice & Wolf world is similar to medieval (or actually more like XVI century) Europe, but isn't. Trying to fit it into real world history would be meaningless. For all we know, there could be even no Roman Empire in S&W historyline. Also S&W Church is similar to Christian denomination, but isn't. There are some not obvious, but significant differences. For example, it seems to be less centralized, without knight templars and crusades stuff.

From the look of things, IMHO S&W technological level is late XVI / early XVII century (minus gunpowder), economy is more like XVII century, religious affairs are somewhat like XII century (minus Islam), and linguistically it's XXII century All above relative to Western Europe.
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Old 2009-07-31, 17:05   Link #196
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aye, as I said -- its best to think of it as yarn of a tall tale.
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Old 2009-08-01, 01:17   Link #197
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Um... it was a bet as I recall. He said he'd convert if he won a battle. One of those historical die rolls. The Roman leadership was pretty pragmatic and cynical about religion.

Also, I'm a bit confused here.... Horo is supposedly about 700+ years old. We really don't have a handle on the time period for this series --- the technology, architecture, and economic structures seem to indicate roughly the period when the Medici were in their early ascent (1300-1500?). However, the position of the Church and its scope in the outlying regions seem to indicate and earlier time frame (1100-1300?). That means the Horo was born at the earliest... just after the Roman Empire fell and the roots of the Arthurian legends were beginning to flower. This seems to make the most sense - as well as to assume the author is mixing centuries a little bit. He is, after all, simply writing a good yarn of a tale.
Yeah I noticed the same thing. But Horo is bit older than that anyway because of her not knowing about the church and never considering it to be big or important which seems to indicate earlier years than just after Roman Empire collapse.

The buildings seem to indicate that it is somewhere around 1500-1600 but the Church role comes more from the earlier frame as you mentioned.

historical/religious figures have two sides to their story.


Quote:
The immorality of the Roman Empire has greatly exaggerated...specifically by Christian scholars who wanted to distance themselves from it. The Roman Republic/Empire lasted 1000 years, or 2000 years if you include their successor Byzantines. The average kingdom in Christendom lasted less than 500 years.

The Roman civilization had a pretty good run, but all nations crumble in the end.
Egypt had a pretty good shot too, special in science and culture (after all the already had electricity back then, though pretty primitive and pretty useless - only used to enlighten some graves and to scare some non-believers).

But they all did collapse sooner or later.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-08-01 at 01:29.
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Old 2009-08-01, 02:28   Link #198
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I'd forgotten how emotionally taxing this story really is.

I remember when I got to this part of the story it was pretty late at night but when I tried to sleep I failed and gave up after about a half hour to an hour of trying. I ended up reading the whole thing that night, and I just so happened to reach the prologue right when the translator was posting it. Lucky me!
You mean the epilogue? xD

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Yep, she was trying to say that she was wrong, but Lawrence felt that he too was wrong, and he was, for hiding that Yoitsu info from her.

I think he heard her say "sorry", but misunderstood what it meant. I think Lawrence felt she meant "Sorry, but I don't want to see you right now"
Right. Horo's apology was over the realization that she had gone overboard and disorted the facts in her emotional outbreak. She had actually managed to compose herself by then. However, Lawrence mistook her apology as representing a severence of their relationship...

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Horo cannot read. She could not read about that and she cold not hear much from remote villagers as well. The knowledge in that aspect should be pretty lacking. Remember that knight stories were popular and passed among nobles and towns folk, not among small remote village people.

She could not be active during the dark ages because otherwise she wold know about the changes regarding church.

I am arguing that while playing was her intent she is not particularly in control because of her lack of knowledge in this regard.
As some have already pointed out, she definitely CAN read. She lied to Lawrence about not being able to read in order to surprise him at some later point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puppygod View Post
Spice & Wolf world is similar to medieval (or actually more like XVI century) Europe, but isn't. Trying to fit it into real world history would be meaningless. For all we know, there could be even no Roman Empire in S&W historyline. Also S&W Church is similar to Christian denomination, but isn't. There are some not obvious, but significant differences. For example, it seems to be less centralized, without knight templars and crusades stuff.

From the look of things, IMHO S&W technological level is late XVI / early XVII century (minus gunpowder), economy is more like XVII century, religious affairs are somewhat like XII century (minus Islam), and linguistically it's XXII century All above relative to Western Europe.
Agreed. Given the similarities, one may reasonably say that the S&W universe is based on some period in European history, but trying to pinpoint the actual time setting is rather pointless considering that this is a work of fiction set in a fictional setting. Moreover, despite the similarities, there is evidence that the religion of the Church in S&W is not even Christianity/Catholicism, as suggested by the necklaces worn by clergy members such as Elsa and the nun in Vol. 5 (not crosses, but a kind of semicircular-shaped item).
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Old 2009-08-01, 21:27   Link #199
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Horo's fear of being alone really hit home. She is a social being (wolves are social by nature), and her precious joyous time spent with Lawrence reflects how empty her existence has been, without the presence and company of others. And with no home to return to, a new family would give her that comfort and closeness she would miss. She doesn't want Lawrence's pity. And his objection to give her a child reveals the reservations of his feelings for her and the relationship. There's a line he won't cross with her, apparently. Perhaps he considers consummation with her kind as taboo, and even unclean? Eye-opening moment.
In the first season, there's a scene between Horo and Lawrence where it's pretty damn obvious Lawrence wouldn't mind sex with Horo at all. I think it has more to do with Lawrence not wanting to take advantage of Horo's desperation. She would have been terribly pissed at him had he actually done it with her at the time.

And that's without mentioning Lawrence knows their relationship is far from permanent. As far as he knows they'll find Horo's village and he'll never see her again afterwards. He doesn't know that, in her dreams, Horo would chose him over her own people. As far as he knows, there's very little truth in this legend about a giant, moon-eating bear levelling the Wolf village.
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Old 2009-08-02, 10:02   Link #200
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In the first season, there's a scene between Horo and Lawrence where it's pretty damn obvious Lawrence wouldn't mind sex with Horo at all. I think it has more to do with Lawrence not wanting to take advantage of Horo's desperation. She would have been terribly pissed at him had he actually done it with her at the time.

And that's without mentioning Lawrence knows their relationship is far from permanent. As far as he knows they'll find Horo's village and he'll never see her again afterwards. He doesn't know that, in her dreams, Horo would chose him over her own people. As far as he knows, there's very little truth in this legend about a giant, moon-eating bear levelling the Wolf village.
I see their budding relationship as intimate, with flirtation and hugs being depth of their bond. Lust never manifests itself, in the first season, between the two partners, in my opinion. Lawrence's bouts of embarrassment seems more a result of Horo's forthrightness and care-free charm in the relationship. She's the playful crafty social vixen, while he's the caring gentlemanly merchant nerd.

I agree that Lawrence wouldn't take advantage of the situation in Horo's moment of desperation. But having a child is a frightening thought for an independent peddler like Lawrence. Perhaps if he were more settled, like tending a store, then a family with children wouldn't be so far-fetched. But Horo isn't human, though she exhibits many traits and qualities of someone who is. Lawrence's life-span would be a blink of eye for Horo. Still, having a child (a demi-deity, like Hercules?) could ease the burden of loneliness in her future.

Lawrence's fondness for her has deepened to the point he fears losing her after escorting her home, and she vice versa. But he has yet to confess his love to her. She apparently has an affectionate heart for him, and she has assumed he feels the same with her. And a child would be the ultimate expression of that love. So his rejection of that child is a rejection of the love she assumes they've shared.
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