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Old 2009-05-21, 20:12   Link #81
Firefly00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbron View Post
As far as I can tell in the game lore, there was an 'aha' moment, even during EW1. It was just made by the same man that designed the Edelweiss, and we all understand how that was ignored even though it is utterly awesome.
Well, if a certain corpulent, mustached chap is indeed fairly representative of the Gallian military's upper echelons... that ignorance is no surprise after all. And comparisons to the Earth Federation over in UC Gundam become easy. As do comparisons of the Edelweiss' designer to Gen. Billy Mitchell.
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Old 2009-05-26, 16:16   Link #82
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I remember reading from the artbook that the design for Imperial Tanks are base more on Soviet design with the muti-turret tanks..

Edelweiss looks like German design..but have slop armor which most German tank doesn't have?

Gallian Tanks are pathetic they are really only better than the Imperial tank that you get during Selvaria DLC....@_@


I think the final level of weapon development looks pretty damn cool...never mind that it might be too heavy it sure doesn't look plain at all.
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Old 2009-05-28, 12:28   Link #83
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Edelweiss vs Corporal Randel Oland (pumkin scissors) aka. The Tank Destoyer
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Old 2009-06-09, 15:32   Link #84
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Alright I not a tank expert but I watched a Tank evolution documenty once.

Just something I picked up. The armor on the Edelwis is slopped which is a later upgrade of the tanks armor. The slopped armor provides a stronger resistance to bounce off enemy shells or prevent the peicing of its armor. Guess its bit technical for me to explain atm. But tanks have always been a weaponary vs armor race. A new armor peicing weaponary is made, then its a stronger resistant armor produced to counter it.

For me when I first seen the Edelwis, I knew it was an advanced armored tank because of its sloped armor which is used in present times even now. Yet the standard tank being used by Imperials/Gallian seem to be early ww2 modeled tanks. So I knew from that point the Edelwis would be a superior tank. Not only is it better armored design, in the anime it menoavered superior. I beleived it also fired on the move, which makes me beleive it possibly has the device that doesnt allow the gun to bounce around while going over ruff terrain. Some type of gun spring mechanism if I can recall. Like a shock absorber.

But as its said in the anime, its a prototype, so its a rare tank which shows the path in future tank development (like after ww2). So its kinda cool Squad 7 has it

Its obvious so far the Imperials dont understand its design and have been utterly confused how its kicking there a$$'s, not even the Gallian army is aware of its battle superiority (if they realized wouldn't they hastely put it into production ? )

anyway thats my 2 cents, dont have time to spell check so make do

just wanted to add, so far in the anime the Edelwis has taken a hit, but the shell bounced off the side of its armor. It more like clipped the side. Bit of paint work damage keke ^_^
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Old 2009-06-10, 03:03   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velsy View Post
Just something I picked up. The armor on the Edelwis is slopped which is a later upgrade of the tanks armor. The slopped armor provides a stronger resistance to bounce off enemy shells or prevent the peicing of its armor. Guess its bit technical for me to explain atm.
The best benefit of sloped armour is its comparative thickness to non-slopped armour. A solid piece of steel 60mm thick positioned vertically is only 60mm and offers the best surface for a round to transfer all it's energy against.

However if you rotate that same 60mm piece of steel to an angle of 45*, you've increased its thickness - I can't remember if it's almost double the thickness at that angle or not - and created a surface the round is more like to deflect off of. That said, you can use a thinner piece of angled steel to offer the same comparative thickness as the vertical slab thus saving materials.

But you're correct, with every advancement in anti-tank technology, a new means must be made for the tank to defeat that advancement and the cycle continues.

An example would be when shaped charges were deployed, armoured shrouds were added to to the exterior of vehicles for the rounds to detonate prematurely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velsy View Post
I beleived it also fired on the move, which makes me beleive it possibly has the device that doesnt allow the gun to bounce around while going over ruff terrain. Some type of gun spring mechanism if I can recall. Like a shock absorber.
I think you're referring to a gyro-stabilized barrel. No matter how high or low the chassis oscillates, the gun remains pointed at the same height within limitations of it's maximum and minimum elevations.

A shock absorber or "spring" would most likely be a recoil dampener.
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Old 2009-07-19, 13:26   Link #86
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If the Imperials had fielded anything like these in the story, I wonder how the Edelweiss would fair in that case...
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Old 2009-07-19, 16:00   Link #87
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Since it was discussed a little in episode 16, so the Ruhm (Selvaria's machine-gun) is none other than a MG-34 from what I've seen. It's unfortunate we won't probably see Selvaria with that in the series even if this would have really been bad ass.

Since we have references of WWII German/Russian weaponry, I guess the only thing missing would be the STG-44 (they had one in Jin-Roh).
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Old 2009-07-21, 16:19   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since we have references of WWII German/Russian weaponry, I guess the only thing missing would be the STG-44 (they had one in Jin-Roh).
The MAGs (the standard Gallian submachine gun) borrows several features from the STG-44 such as the pistol grip and trigger assembly as well as the fore grip and barrel assembly including the sights.

In the game if you follow the MAG-T upgrade, the first advancement really reminds me of a STG-44.
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Old 2009-07-21, 21:16   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Since we have references of WWII German/Russian weaponry, I guess the only thing missing would be the STG-44 (they had one in Jin-Roh).
Thanks; now I'm wondering if the Panzer Cops' 'Protect Gear' could be replicated in the VC universe...

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Old 2009-07-22, 04:51   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly00 View Post
Thanks; now I'm wondering if the Panzer Cops' 'Protect Gear' could be replicated in the VC universe...
It looks a bit too high tech for the VC universe standards. We don't really know how advanced they are concerning things as specific as ballistic armours though. I reckon it wouldn't be impossible.

In the game and manga Shocktroopers, both Gallian and Imperials, already wear heavy modular armour.
Rosie in this image is wearing the standard Gallian shocktrooper armour (minus the helm which non of the named characters wear, but is standard for gallian soldiers) (note that Rosie doesn't wear standard uniform either, only the main female cast have mini skirts), as is Edy here. Not to mention Lancer armour as worn by Largo.
Here's for Imperial soldiers (taken from the art book).

In the anime all Gallian soldiers wear Scout gear which intentionally looks lighter.


While those armour plates might give a somewhat futuristic feeling it's actually quite archaic as it's missing the soft armour made of layers of fabric to spread the impact. It looks like mostly steel plates which would have limited effectiveness against ballistic weapons.
Not to mention how silly it is that the most important body parts, torso and abdomen, are not protected on Gallian issued gear (except those dubiously useful breast pads).
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Old 2009-07-30, 23:39   Link #91
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I know these were not in the game either, but have they ever heard of bayonets for close range combat? We have seen Zaka in action with his knife and Imperial generals with their swords, but I don't recall any general-issued blade weaponry in VC while these were widely used in both WWI and WWII. It's sounds curious to me because I felt we lacked something realistic again, that's all.
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Old 2009-07-31, 01:27   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I know these were not in the game either, but have they ever heard of bayonets for close range combat? We have seen Zaka in action with his knife and Imperial generals with their swords, but I don't recall any general-issued blade weaponry in VC while these were widely used in both WWI and WWII. It's sounds curious to me because I felt we lacked something realistic again, that's all.
I think the developers worried that bayonets would be too graphic in terms of violent content. That, or they wouldn't be useful in terms of the gameplay.

Either way, I'm not overly bothered by the lack of bayonets.
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Old 2009-07-31, 09:28   Link #93
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
If the Imperials had fielded anything like these in the story, I wonder how the Edelweiss would fair in that case...
The Edelweiss was based on the E-50 prototypes, which possessed similar specs, dimensions and performance. In theory, it would have been more than a match against any of the tanks you have listed.

http://www.panzer-archiv.de/images/d...46/bild220.jpg

Which can be compared with: http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/8...amilieats7.jpg

Soviet tanks on the other hand, did not get scary until the T-34 rolled off the assembly in large numbers. Prior to that, German Panzers had a definite upper-hand against anything the Soviets fielded.

Even so, German tanks, such as the Panther, Tiger and King Tigers all proved to be more than a match against the T-34s and later series. Though, the losses of Soviet armored vehicles in the Eastern Front was... quite appalling even after superior models were fielded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloner4000 View Post
Edelweiss looks like German design..but have slop armor which most German tank doesn't have?
Certainly, most German tanks did not possess slope armor, but at the end of the war years, the best German medium tank, the Panther and later the King Tiger, all sport slope armor. The Panther is often considered to be the best overall tank in World War II.

But, don't forget, the Edelweiss was a prototype, just as the E-50 was a prototype. Both were meant to be revolutionary... and... both were just sitting in a garage at one point...

Otherwise, the main Gallian tank is really a smaller version of the German workhorse, the Panzer IV with armored skirt.

Which is interesting, as in VC2, the tank on the cover is none other than the Panzer III.

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Old 2009-07-31, 11:28   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I know these were not in the game either, but have they ever heard of bayonets for close range combat? We have seen Zaka in action with his knife and Imperial generals with their swords, but I don't recall any general-issued blade weaponry in VC while these were widely used in both WWI and WWII. It's sounds curious to me because I felt we lacked something realistic again, that's all.
In addition to what Runty posted, the reason for not having bayonets in the anime is because they were absent in the game. In terms of game design, it's pretty obvious why the characters don't have bayonets - if they had them, then players would expect to be able to use them. That doesn't fit into the gameplay, and so it's just easier to not show them at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Soviet tanks on the other hand, did not get scary until the T-34 rolled off the assembly in large numbers. Prior to that, German Panzers had a definite upper-hand against anything the Soviets fielded.
Prior to that would have been 1940, and the Soviets still had small numbers of KV tanks. In comparison, the Wehrmacht was stuck with Pzkpfw IIIs with the 37mm gun and Pzkpfw IVs with the short 75mm gun; and in insufficient numbers to boot. They had to use 38(t)s to make up their divisions. Against this tank inventory, the Soviets would have a plethora of tanks with 45mm guns and short 76mm guns. The only "definite" advantages the Germans enjoyed in terms of technology was that their tanks had 3-man turrets and radios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Even so, German tanks, such as the Panther, Tiger and King Tigers all proved to be more than a match against the T-34s and later series. Though, the losses of Soviet armored vehicles in the Eastern Front was... quite appalling even after superior models were fielded.
"More than a match" is a bit of an exaggeration here. The Panther (~45 tons) on up would be considered in the heavy tank class, and so they should be compared to other heavy units like the IS II or SU-152, which matched up very well with the German "Cats".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Certainly, most German tanks did not possess slope armor, but at the end of the war years, the best German medium tank, the Panther and later the King Tiger, all sport slope armor. The Panther is often considered to be the best overall tank in World War II.
While this is true, the Allies were more likely to sport tanks with sloped armor.

Quote:
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But, don't forget, the Edelweiss was a prototype, just as the E-50 was a prototype. Both were meant to be revolutionary... and... both were just sitting in a garage at one point...
Well, they were prototypes, and we all know that prototypes are usually very unsuited for the battlefield. On top of that, Gallia is a tiny country, so it shouldn't have any hopes of building something the Edelweiss in any sort of useful numbers.
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Old 2009-07-31, 20:49   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
The Edelweiss was based on the E-50 prototypes, which possessed similar specs, dimensions and performance. In theory, it would have been more than a match against any of the tanks you have listed.

http://www.panzer-archiv.de/images/d...46/bild220.jpg

Which can be compared with: http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/8...amilieats7.jpg

Soviet tanks on the other hand, did not get scary until the T-34 rolled off the assembly in large numbers. Prior to that, German Panzers had a definite upper-hand against anything the Soviets fielded.

Even so, German tanks, such as the Panther, Tiger and King Tigers all proved to be more than a match against the T-34s and later series. Though, the losses of Soviet armored vehicles in the Eastern Front was... quite appalling even after superior models were fielded.



Certainly, most German tanks did not possess slope armor, but at the end of the war years, the best German medium tank, the Panther and later the King Tiger, all sport slope armor. The Panther is often considered to be the best overall tank in World War II.

But, don't forget, the Edelweiss was a prototype, just as the E-50 was a prototype. Both were meant to be revolutionary... and... both were just sitting in a garage at one point...

Otherwise, the main Gallian tank is really a smaller version of the German workhorse, the Panzer IV with armored skirt.

Which is interesting, as in VC2, the tank on the cover is none other than the Panzer III.

- Tak
All of the tankers on the Spacebattles forums would differ on that assessment.

The E-50 in the analysis of professional tankers is still inferior in performance to a T-54 (weight, firepower, armor protection) as listed in the link I put up, and the IS-7 uses a modified naval gun as its main armament strong enough to punch holes in cruiser armor, so that overweight E-50 is nothing more than an obsolete paperweight before it would even be fielded. (And these American tanks are just as capable of one-shotting an E-50 at range too).
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Old 2009-08-01, 09:34   Link #96
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post

The E-50 in the analysis of professional tankers is still inferior in performance to a T-54 (weight, firepower, armor protection) as listed in the link I put up, and the IS-7 uses a modified naval gun as its main armament strong enough to punch holes in cruiser armor, so that overweight E-50 is nothing more than an obsolete paperweight before it would even be fielded.
Well of course the T-54 would have been a superior tank. You are essentially comparing a successful post-war model to a heavily modified unused model

The comparison I was making was exclusively for interwar tanks. To pull the T-54 is like pulling the Leopard II alongside and say "here, shoot it out!~"

But the situation here? Its like some German panzer crews saying "if we had just one battalion of Panthers and Tigers back in '40, we would have been able to go straight for Moscow!"

So Sega did just that... it gave Gallia one of such tank... for defensive purposes

And yes, if you played the game, the Empire essentially fielded even heavier and better tanks. Namely an IS-3 lookalike.

- Tak (Oh, are the Spacebattle dudes over that Warhammer 40K vs. Star Trek thingie?)
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Old 2009-08-01, 10:07   Link #97
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Well of course the T-54 would have been a superior tank. You are essentially comparing a successful post-war model to a heavily modified unused model
Not quite: the T-54 would be a tank with its first prototype rolled out in 1945, while the E-50 is a paper model that was never actually built. The comparison is unfair, but it's unfair to the benefit of the E-50.

Quote:
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But the situation here? Its like some German panzer crews saying "if we had just one battalion of Panthers and Tigers back in '40, we would have been able to go straight for Moscow!"

So Sega did just that... it gave Gallia one of such tank... for defensive purposes
It wouldn't make that much difference. The Germans in 1941 were more stymied by their logistical inadequacies than by the technical failings of their tanks. While better tanks could have helped in certain battles, they would have also required more fuel and maintenance that just wasn't available during Barbarossa. Having Tigers and Panthers early wouldn't help in 1941.

Likewise should have been true of Edelweiss - having a unique tank would also mean that it would have unique maintenance requirements. There wouldn't be any ready replacement parts for anything that breaks down. And so, it would end up being more as a burden in the long run than as an asset.
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Old 2009-08-01, 11:34   Link #98
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Not quite: the T-54 would be a tank with its first prototype rolled out in 1945, while the E-50 is a paper model that was never actually built. The comparison is unfair, but it's unfair to the benefit of the E-50.
The E-50 was actually built and had its chassis & engines tested. It was just never mounted with a gun, and never saw combat.

While the T-54 rolled out its first prototype in Feb. of 1945, the T-54 remained just an untested combat vehicle as mass production did not start until 1946. Either way, while the T-54 had a fully functional prototype, it also never saw combat.

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It wouldn't make that much difference. The Germans in 1941 were more stymied by their logistical inadequacies than by the technical failings of their tanks. While better tanks could have helped in certain battles, they would have also required more fuel and maintenance that just wasn't available during Barbarossa. Having Tigers and Panthers early wouldn't help in 1941.
This is not me saying it, this is German crews in the front-lines complaining about the proliferation of the T-34s while not having tanks with similar capacities. Certainly, Tigers and Panthers would have required specific maintenance procedures, but I would think the German crews assumed that those came with the tanks. Its just a given. Certainly the tanks wouldn't just pop out of nowhere and being handed to them without the techs back home knowing how to fix 'em.

Although at the end, it would seem that the easiest way for Germans to have a chance was simply... to provide them with winter equipment.

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Old 2009-08-02, 20:08   Link #99
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To expand on what 4Tran said, tanks such as the M4 Sherman, Pz IV or T-34 are better for offensive maneuver warfare because they have better mechanical reliability and simplicity of maintenance than behemoths like the Tiger (whose size and complexity made it harder to build, maintain and deploy), and are easier to build and keep supplied. This support aspect is also why most tanks today use diesels and torsion bar suspensions rather than turbines and hydropneumatic suspensions.

(As for the Spacebattlers, they're now more SW vs WH40K than any ST, unless its ST vs B5 ).
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Old 2009-08-03, 19:17   Link #100
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To expand on what 4Tran said, tanks such as the M4 Sherman, Pz IV or T-34 are better for offensive maneuver warfare because they have better mechanical reliability and simplicity of maintenance than behemoths like the Tiger (whose size and complexity made it harder to build, maintain and deploy), and are easier to build and keep supplied. This support aspect is also why most tanks today use diesels and torsion bar suspensions rather than turbines and hydropneumatic suspensions.
Thats a bit debatable I think. Many Tigers were organized to specifically hunt & destroy Allied vehicles. Lets not forget Michael Wittmann, he was especially skilled in offensive maneuver with the Tiger tank.

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(As for the Spacebattlers, they're now more SW vs WH40K than any ST, unless its ST vs B5 ).
Oh that, I noticed that months ago. Has not yet died down? Who won?

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