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Old 2009-07-31, 12:19   Link #41
velvet nightmare
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Yeah, but even if visibkle to the naked eye, you can imagine it visible by after someone brutally cuts open a pregant woman's belly? I even doubt Kotonoha knew where she must aim. With a meat cleaver that big you could easily even crush the baby. Not to mention Kotonoha was extremely delusional. Even if she saws a fully grown baby it means nothing to her. She still belives there's nothing inside in Sekai.
you have to consider they're high school students, and i mean, we have to assume they're not completely stupid, considering in highschool biology classes you start learning bisection, it's not completely out of the question for katonaha to pick up a textbook and figure out where the fetus is going to be. but this is just speculation

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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Nice effort, and all, but... it doesn't change the fact you're taking into account the ravings of a lunatic over something that wasn't disproved otherwise. I mean, really, something the size of a bb pellet would really be visible in those conditions, that lightning?

And, really, you believe Kotonoha's words, there? She's the girl who was quite happy to sail away with her boyfriend's severed head, after all... We don't have to assume her words are the truth, at all. heh:
that's also an acceptable point of view, but you have to take it at face value. just that kotonoha's calm demeanor hints that she was thinking clearly. i mean, put it this way, in that state, would she be able to do simple math? stand on one leg? run in a straight line? the way i see it is that it seems that even though her her views of right and wrong were completely blurred, she should still be able to do simple tasks and she focused her efforts into finding out the truth

it just didnt seem that she would screw up something so important like figuring out the truth after all her efforts and suffering
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Old 2009-07-31, 12:31   Link #42
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Calm? You mean putting out no emotions after killing someone the first time means calmness? She's deffinietly insane. Anyways just give out some test about pregnancy and woman biology to the high school girls. I think very few of them can actually answer those "high school level questions". Not to mention if I am correct Kotonoha drove her cleaver into Sekai's belly with full power. Not to mention it was near the uterus. She must've been pretty lucky to avoid the baby with it.
In short: There's no way for her to determine it with a method like that. Not to mention She must've an excellent vision at night to notice a 2cm diameter baby even if she were successful. They made those scenes to confuse the people. And to be honest almost anyone who hated Sekai instantly believed every word of Kotonoha(and perhaps others too).
There's a somewhat only a half-related proof to strenghten the possibility of Sekai being pregnant. In the VN Makoto makes Sekai pregnant in many endings(Including the bad end 1, where Sekai kills Makoto). I know it's not a strong one, but I thought I must mention it.
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Old 2009-07-31, 13:28   Link #43
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iirc the fetus forms on either side of the uterus depending on which side the egg was impregnated so it would either be slightly left or right of center of sekai's stomach, so if kotonoha was careful enough (wouldn't be too hard on a corpse) she would have all the time in the world. but this is all random speculation and goes nowhere, we have to take her word for it as there's nothing that suggests she couldn't have done it except for her sanity which we're trying to determine.

in any case you can never know how people react after killing someone

but i mean it's besides the point, even if she is 'insane' she must be able to do some basic functions as i stated earlier. each person's definition of 'insane' differs. what i take as insane is someone screaming pulling their hair out not being able to tell which way is up. so in this case i would say that kotonoha isn't insane (or mentally unstable however you want to call it) and she is still able to make rational decisions (yes, including killing someone, it was premeditated so she still has the ability to plan and think albeit in a very crude unsophisticated manner)
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Old 2009-07-31, 14:22   Link #44
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Well, Kotonoha was famous for denying the facts. So her insanity is like that. She only belives what's according to her own world. Nothing more. In her world it's predetermined that Sekai's lying from the first second she heard it.
Insane people has the ability to think...The thing they loose their morality and reasoning. Sometimes they can't think at all, because of their hampering thoughts about something other, but it wasn't the case with Kotonoha. She turned into a physical manifestation of a vengefull spirit in terms of mentality. She was full of murderous intent and else. of course she thinks it out somewhat. In reallity she must've played thousand times in her head how she kills Sekai.

And about the stabbing part. The baby's already in the uterus. And every healthy woman only has one of that organ. That's where the baby starts to develop and remain until the childbirth. And Kotonoha probably stabbed it with full force. There's hardly any way for the baby to remain recognisable after such a violent thing.
Anyways for Kotonoha "checking Sekai" was just a simple justification to kill her. and I guess she just simply loooken into Sekai's belly through the cut she made. She did nothing other. And she instantly said she wasn't pregnant. It means it was probably just a part of her "play". She didn't care about Sekai having a baby or not after that in reallity. But she must do that to fool herself and justify her actions.
In short I say it again: Kotonoha had absolutely no way to prove Sekai was pregnant or not.
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Old 2009-07-31, 15:20   Link #45
velvet nightmare
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Anyways for Kotonoha "checking Sekai" was just a simple justification to kill her. and I guess she just simply loooken into Sekai's belly through the cut she made. She did nothing other. And she instantly said she wasn't pregnant. It means it was probably just a part of her "play". She didn't care about Sekai having a baby or not after that in reallity. But she must do that to fool herself and justify her actions.
In short I say it again: Kotonoha had absolutely no way to prove Sekai was pregnant or not.
never thought about it that way, it's another way to look at it

but if you put it that way (context of revenge) it would stand to say that she wasn't unstable and she was just blinded by rage to do the killing

but i think you're right when you say kotonoha's sickness (i'll call it a sickness as opposed to a breakdown) is to force herself into believing something which blurs out all of her regular consciousness. so it's possible to say that she though even after the decapitation that she believes she was with a living, speaking, thinking makoto (like she did earlier in the series when she was missing) as opposed to a dead head which she used sarcasm against sekai when she said 'here, ask the head'
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Old 2009-07-31, 20:21   Link #46
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C'mon, really, you're arguing whether Kotonoha was insane or not, at the end? I thought that was a very moot point. The whole argument of whether or not Sekai was pregnant cannot be resolved by her simple statement after cutting the dead girl's belly open and merely looking askance at the insides.

Please...
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Old 2009-07-31, 21:41   Link #47
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if sekai was 9 months pregnant im sure kotonoha would be able to see a baby. 8 months? yes. 4 months? yes. there's a cut off point somewhere. and even at 6 weeks it's not 'inconceivable'

because of that we can question her sanity and the points of view regarding it
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Old 2009-08-01, 01:06   Link #48
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It surely should be inconceivable for a mentally unstable girl - who just cut another one open, I might add; and was shown favoring some disturbing displays of reality dissociation, as well - to notice the minute signs of a pregnancy, such as it was, in this case.

I mean, really, was it even something like six or seven weeks? Sekai missed a period and soon after began getting sick and taking notice. I still don't think there would have been all that much to see, really - let alone for someone with no previously mentioned medical background...
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Old 2009-08-01, 01:17   Link #49
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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
if sekai was 9 months pregnant im sure kotonoha would be able to see a baby. 8 months? yes. 4 months? yes. there's a cut off point somewhere. and even at 6 weeks it's not 'inconceivable'

because of that we can question her sanity and the points of view regarding it
Ok so you're sure that Kotonoha knows exactly how the baby looks like at that stage of her pregnancy. I'm sure Kotonoha can see the BB pellet sized object in all the blood as well as in the darkness of the rooftop. I really doubt that Kotonoha thoroughly searched, especially considering the fact that she was in denial. The girl gutted Sekai and stared blankly into the dark opening of her stomach. No way you would be able to see a pellet sized object within the mess she created.

I don't question her sanity, because in the end she's sailing off into the horizon with Makoto's severed head. The girl was insane, plain and simple. Since we know she was insane by the end, I'm pretty sure that she was insane while looking for a baby that's almost impossible to see unless you're a surgeon of some sort.
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Old 2009-08-02, 01:48   Link #50
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Ok so you're sure that Kotonoha knows exactly how the baby looks like at that stage of her pregnancy. I'm sure Kotonoha can see the BB pellet sized object in all the blood as well as in the darkness of the rooftop. I really doubt that Kotonoha thoroughly searched, especially considering the fact that she was in denial. The girl gutted Sekai and stared blankly into the dark opening of her stomach. No way you would be able to see a pellet sized object within the mess she created.

I don't question her sanity, because in the end she's sailing off into the horizon with Makoto's severed head. The girl was insane, plain and simple. Since we know she was insane by the end, I'm pretty sure that she was insane while looking for a baby that's almost impossible to see unless you're a surgeon of some sort.
that's how the show leaves you questioning whether she was actually pregnant or not. let's say instead of it being at night, the next scene after the stabbing of the neck, or wherever, cant remember, was a day time shot from inside the womb. would you say then that kotonoha was correct because she took her time?

another question is did she stare blankly during her search or after? the way i see is it was after she found it and she was 'relieved' and spaced out. but you bring up a point that it could be during her search so it would support the insane side

the point i wanted to bring up with months example was lets say sekai was 9 months pregnant, and then kotonoha said 'no she's not pregnant' that would mean she is insane if she didnt then maybe she can still think straight. so somewhere there's an ambiguous size of the fetus that we can somehow say that it's big enough to be spotted and not be damaged beyond visibility. i personally think it's possible to see a bb pellet, though it could be bigger, we don't know, but i think it's possible why?

well you guys bring up the fact that kotonoha actually set sail with the head. i dont think i could set up the boat and get out that far if i was 'insane'. so if she has the mental capacity to set sail, what's to say she can't do a simple dissection. (if she took biology in highschool maybe she could do it but we don't know so i won't go further)

and you can't say she just drifted out because im sure a nice boat like that has to at least be in a harbor or something with docks

so i go back to what i said earlier in the post that it's just the way the ending is that we have to kind of guess at which is more likely
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Old 2009-08-02, 02:19   Link #51
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No...between the term of insane and batshit crazy quite few differences. An insane person can live a seemingly normal life. Their sense and view of the world is disorted and perhaps their morality(In short: they have strong and maybe even constant delusions). The 'can't think straight' part means she can't because she's too occupied with her toughts or she acts strangely because she sees the world somehow differently. Another insane thing when someone alters her memories of happenings or simply deny them. Kotonoha showed us both after she was dumped 'officially'. Perhaps it showed us 'disorted word' too.
But I can't argue with you about the uncertainity of Sekai's pregnancy. We didn't see any certain proofs neither counterproofs. I only said it's more probable she was pregnant than not.
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Old 2010-01-21, 23:42   Link #52
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i agree with you..

as a student nurse I'm aware of the consequences of pre-marital sex..

and most probably Sekai would really be pregnant..
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Old 2010-02-15, 17:12   Link #53
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this anime is based off a hentai game by Overflow. The anime is based of what they call a "bloody conclusion" with is one of the bad endings.
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Old 2010-03-30, 10:35   Link #54
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Still the fact remains; Makoto really decided to take a risk there, dating and having sex with two girls in his school, underage, and getting one of them Pregnant? His little gambit failed, and caused the tragic death of Sekai and Makotot himself. Although to lighten the mood, this actually taught me a lesson, The anger of a demanding woman is scarier than the anger of a man
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Old 2010-04-09, 21:45   Link #55
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Me, personally i think sekai wasn't pregnant...
I mean when kotohona said something like "Your not pregnant, am i wrong?"
Sekai clenched her fist like she was defeated and got found out
I love finding small little things
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Old 2010-04-10, 08:21   Link #56
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That's up to speculation, but the clench in Sekai's fists could just as well be from her finding herself up against a crazier person than herself...
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Old 2010-04-11, 11:26   Link #57
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There's also a possibility where the ending was of a mere hallucination. So in other words, everything that is done could just be seen from a person's vision (of hallucination or an imagery) and in reality, it's just something that's an alternative to what the person had done.

Here are examples:

If it's from Sekai's view, she would just hallucinate what's happening to her, with her death and all, and in reality, she could be having a heart attack (with the belief that she was dead) and would die with that (though the baby's survival --that is, if she had one-- is in question). Another possible hallucination that could occur is whether Makoto is dead or not. He could not be truly dead, or rather, it's just hallucination. That means that Makoto is still living and Sekai was just throwing tantrums at the air or at something else.

If in Kotohona's view, who knows, maybe she didn't notice the baby (though the whole she-crushed-the-baby-with-her-weapon can also apply) or she was just hallucinating that there was no baby. She could also hallucinate whether or not she killed Sekai or not, which means that she could notice that Sekai is still alive and well the next time she is in contact with the school while she figured that she was also throwing tantrums at the air or yet even better, another person that looks like Sekai.

And if you mix the hallucinations together, maybe Kotohona was really not carrying Makoto's head or rather something that resembles it (a ball, perhaps?)

--

All in all, paranioa and hallucination is applied. This is my theory, or a guess ><;; (though I'll respect those that disagree with me, since this is not higurashi)
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Old 2010-04-11, 16:49   Link #58
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That's up to speculation, but the clench in Sekai's fists could just as well be from her finding herself up against a crazier person than herself...
I know, but i have read all the info up there and i'm just adding info on
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Old 2010-04-18, 23:27   Link #59
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We've got previous evidence f Kotonoha's instability, when she refused to accept Makoto's abandonment of her. The fact that she's insane does not mean she's unable to function, it simply means she is unable to function as a sane person. Sane people do not decapitate their boyfriend's corpse and go out on a nice boat with it. So we've got the evidence that she's insane and delusional.

She had a meat cleaver, not a scalpel, and was looking for something the size of a pea. In the dark. With blood everywhere. These are not autopsy conditions. Even a good doctor would find such an examination difficult. She chopped open Sekai as part of her delusion, and then proclaimed that Sekai wasn't pregnant. Sekai may not have been pregnant, but she may have. We cannot draw a conclusion from Kotonoha's judgement.
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Old 2010-07-28, 05:02   Link #60
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The ending wasn't exactly...realistic.

But was definitely a surprise and pretty fulfilling, I wouldn't of liked the anime that much if it was a boring old 'Happy ending'.

If you don't like the ending just play the game and get to a happy one :P

Spoiler for episode:
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