One Piece - Chapter 552 (manga)

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Fair enough. Then again, Whitebeard could be just as familar with the devil fruits (via the same books that Blackbeard read (and we know that the books list, at least, basic abilities, or else Blackbeard would have never chosen the fruit)), so he could very well know the powers of the darkness fruit.

If Ace wasn't even aware of the capabilities of the darkness fruit (he was taken by surprise in his duel with Blackbeard), chances are that Whitebeard or anyone else doesn't know of its capabilities either. The only person who probably had a good knowledge and understanding of the fruit was Satch (the 4th division commander) since he was originally in possession of it, but he's dead now so it doesn't really matter anymore.

Originally Posted by james0246

There is no reason to assume that he chose the fruit specifically for the possibility that it could defeat Whitebeard.

Why not? Whitebeard is an obstacle for Blackbeard no matter how you look at it. By the time he left Whitebeard's crew, it was clear to him that Whitebeard wouldn't let his crimes go unpunished, and that a duel between them would be inevitable at some point later on since Blackbeard's goal is to exalt himself to pirate king status, which involves taking down all of the top dogs (of which Whitebeard is one of them).

[lonewolf777]

I'm not sure Blackbeard wants to take Whitebeard out face-to-face. Blackbeard doesn't seem to be the type to flex his muscles and take things out. He's a conniver who works from behind the scenes. I think he doesn't even intend to take part in the war. He's alluded to his plan, now all that remains is for us to find out what it is. But I don't think he expects to destroy all the strong men by his own hand.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If Ace wasn't even aware of the capabilities of the darkness fruit (he was taken by surprise in his duel with Blackbeard), chances are that Whitebeard or anyone else doesn't know of its capabilities either. The only person who probably had a good knowledge and understanding of the fruit was Satch (the 4th division commander) since he was originally in possession of it, but he's dead now so it doesn't really matter anymore.

That wasn't my point. Whitebeard could enter a battle with an unknown foe already knowing all of the fruits on the sea because he studied the same books as Blackbeard. So, when he sees the potential foe use their DF power, he would immediately know that the potential foe has X fruit with Y abilities and Z disabilities (if all that info had been written down, that is), all because he read the same books that Sanji, Blackbeard, and Lucci have read.

Conversely, someone with the same book knowledge could know Whitebeard's abilities/potential disabilities, just by reading the correct book.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Why not? Whitebeard is an obstacle for Blackbeard no matter how you look at it. By the time he left Whitebeard's crew, it was clear to him that Whitebeard wouldn't let his crimes go unpunished, and that a duel between them would be inevitable at some point later on since...

Considering that Whitebeard was asking Ace, one of his best, not to seek out Blackbeard, your point is a little off. Whitebeard probably knew, at the time that Blackbeard defected, that only he, as you said, could potentially defeat Blackbeard. So, he called off the search, as was willing to simply leave the situation alone. It was Ace that went against Whitebeard's orders and sought Blackbeard, which in turn forced Whitebeard's hand.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

...Blackbeard's goal is to exalt himself to pirate king status, which involves taking down all of the top dogs (of which Whitebeard is one of them).

I still don't see the logic behind the assumption that Blackbeard himself has to defeat Whitebeard. He could just as easily play the chessmaster and have someone else defeat Whitebeard. Realistically, there is no direct reason why Blackbeard would need to confront Whitebeard - confronting him raises the potential for being harmed, if not killed, and the only reward appears to be fame, something Blackbeard could attain by simply finding One Piece. In the end, unless Whitebeard holds a piece of info that is pivotal for finding One Piece or something to that affect, any direct challenge against him seems to serve only superficial purposes.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

I'm not sure Blackbeard wants to take Whitebeard out face-to-face. Blackbeard doesn't seem to be the type to flex his muscles and take things out. He's a conniver who works from behind the scenes. I think he doesn't even intend to take part in the war. He's alluded to his plan, now all that remains is for us to find out what it is. But I don't think he expects to destroy all the strong men by his own hand.

Oh, I'm not denying any of this. You are absolutely correct in that Blackbeard is a schemer who is all about efficiency when dealing with threats. He will only fight as a last resort if it is absolutely necessary (like he did against Ace since Ace was trying to kill him). But this brings me to another point that I have.

It seems that Blackbeard's plans changed from what they initially were (going after Luffy to earn himself the vacant spot in the shichibukai). Defeating Ace and putting him in the WG's custody served as the catalyst for this great war to occur. Consequently, it wouldn't matter which side would be victorious in this war, because either way his opposition would be severely weakened after it is over. Blackbeard's whole goal is to rule the seas unopposed, and what better way to do this than to not get his own hands dirty? This situation is too convenient for Blackbeard, so of course he's going to take full advantage of it in this special case.

Now, one thing that we have to ask ourselves, would something of this magnitude have happened if Luffy was in Ace's shoes instead? Probably not since Luffy has no affiliation with a world power and because he is not nearly as infamous as Ace is. Then again, Luffy does have ties with Dragon, Garp, and Shanks, so who knows how things would have turned out? If fate didn't intervene, Blackbeard's plan would have played out quite differently, and thus he may have taken a different approach as to how to get rid of Whitebeard.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It seems that Blackbeard's plans changed from what they initially were (going after Luffy to earn himself the vacant spot in the shichibukai). Defeating Ace and putting him in the WG's custody served as the catalyst for this great war to occur. Consequently, it wouldn't matter which side would be victorious in this war, because either way his opposition would be severely weakened after it is over. Blackbeard's whole goal is to rule the seas unopposed, and what better way to do this than to not get his own hands dirty? This situation is too convenient for Blackbeard, so of course he's going to take full advantage of it in this special case.

Yeah, it seems that way. All we can tell thus far is that Blackbeard's plan had involved becoming part of the Shichibukai, and therefore, probably manipulating the World Government and/or the Marines in some manner. It may be possible to assume that his initial plan was using his influence in the World Government to stir up a huge chaotic situation, like this war, but as you said, fate intervened and let this work out for him.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Now, one thing that we have to ask ourselves, would something of this magnitude have happened if Luffy was in Ace's shoes instead? Probably not since Luffy has no affiliation with a world power and because he is not nearly as infamous as Ace is. Then again, Luffy does have ties with Dragon, Garp, and Shanks, so who knows how things would have turned out? If fate didn't intervene, Blackbeard's plan would have played out quite differently, and thus he may have taken a different approach as to how to get rid of Whitebeard.

Good question. While Luffy does have connections to different powers, it's difficult to say if Teach knew any of that. Also, while Shanks is loyal to his nakama, Whitebeard is the one who has the reputation for making anyone who messes with his nakama pay. And Whitebeard seems to be the one who's the most able to take out the World Government (Sengoku: this man has the power to destroy the world), so it seems like Blackbeard probably would have aimed for something like that one way or another.

I foresee Blackbeard somehow coming out on top of this whole situation, and maybe being the main protagonist of the next arc. I'm pretty sure Ace is going to be saved, since Luffy's drive has proved to always get him what he wants, but I don't think this arc will be a completely happy ending. I think it's safe to assume that Ace is stronger than Luffy, though it's probably debatable. Also, I think Ace will still want to teach Blackbeard his lesson, so I think he'll be going after him once this war arc is all said and done. But all of this depends on the specific of Teach's plan and how events unfold.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Considering that Whitebeard was asking Ace, one of his best, not to seek out Blackbeard, your point is a little off.

If Whitebeard asked Ace to sit this one out, how is my point a little off? All that means is that Whitebeard felt a little uneasy and that he would deal with Blackbeard himself when the time is right, and this vengeance is something that Blackbeard would surely expect after the heinous crime he committed.

Originally Posted by james0246

I still don't see the logic behind the assumption that Blackbeard himself has to defeat Whitebeard. He could just as easily play the chessmaster and have someone else defeat Whitebeard. Realistically, there is no direct reason why Blackbeard would need to confront Whitebeard - confronting him raises the potential for being harmed, if not killed, and the only reward appears to be fame, something Blackbeard could attain by simply finding One Piece. In the end, unless Whitebeard holds a piece of info that is pivotal for finding One Piece or something to that affect, any direct challenge against him seems to serve only superficial purposes.

Who says that Whitebeard has to be defeated legitimately? It's pretty clear that no one is on his level and therefore he can beat anyone in a 1 vs 1 fight. That being said, after being exhausted from extensive battle, Blackbeard could finally step in and kill him with a cheap shot.

Do you honestly believe that Whitebeard and Blackbeard won't even confront each other in this war? This whole mess was instigated by Blackbeard and he is the one responsible for putting the Whitebeard pirates through this whole tribulation. I'm sure that before Whitebeard meets his end, both he and Blackbeard would want to exchange a few words with each other. This conversation could also shed some light on Blackbeard's past and what some of his ulterior motives are. Blackbeard and Whitebeard are destined to meet each other. It is fate .

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Now, one thing that we have to ask ourselves, would something of this magnitude have happened if Luffy was in Ace's shoes instead? Probably not since Luffy has no affiliation with a world power and because he is not nearly as infamous as Ace is. Then again, Luffy does have ties with Dragon, Garp, and Shanks, so who knows how things would have turned out? If fate didn't intervene, Blackbeard's plan would have played out quite differently, and thus he may have taken a different approach as to how to get rid of Whitebeard.

I actually think the same exact thing would have happened. Luffy is the son of Dragon and good friend of Shanks. The World Government would be faced with the same destructive threat (in my opinion). Being as though we have seen Dragon wreck Loguetown with his power, I assume his power is as greatly destructive as Whitebeard's power.

I think I might have figured exactly what Dragon's power is.

Spoiler for Dragon's DF Speculation from the Zoan Thread:

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

I wonder if Oda plans on introducing another Rare Zoan-Type like a Dragon or some sort.
That would be cool, depending on where Oda would pull his influences (like Chinese Culture), a Dragon-Zoan would be extremely powerful.

Something (a thought) just occurred to me.
What if Monkey D. DragonISactually a Dragon-Zoan?!
Don't Dragon's have some kind of control/influence of weather in Chinese culture??
If this is the case, this would be a monumental development for Zoans

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If Whitebeard asked Ace to sit this one out, how is my point a little off? All that means is that Whitebeard felt a little uneasy and that he would deal with Blackbeard himself when the time is right, and this vengeance is something that Blackbeard would surely expect after the heinous crime he committed.

Actually, Whitebeard's word directly contradict your statement that Whitebeard wouldn't let Blackbeard's crimes go unpunished. Seemingly, before Ace forced his hand, Whitebeard was going to ignore Blackbeard's deception. Whether that is because Whitebeard felt that Blackbeard was too powerful for any of his sons, or whatever his "uneasy feeling" was, is currently unknown, but, Whitebeard did clearly say, in the flashback, that he was not going after Blackbeard.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Who says that Whitebeard has to be defeated legitimately?

No one, in fact I expect him to fall do to deception, back-stabbing, or a misstep. That being said, who says Blackbeard has to be there for any of that?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It's pretty clear that no one is on his level and therefore he can beat anyone in a 1 vs 1 fight. That being said, after being exhausted from extensive battle, Blackbeard could finally step in and kill him with a cheap shot.

Or, Blackbeard could use the chaos to slip unnoticed into the New World.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Do you honestly believe that Whitebeard and Blackbeard won't even confront each other in this war?

Actually, yes. As I said, the only reason for Blackbeard to face Whitebeard is if Whitebeard holds vital information needed to attain the title of Pirate King (and no, fighting someone labeled "the Strongest" is not vital for attaining the title of Pirate King). Personally, I think it would be far more interesting for Blackbeard to simply set up the situation, but not actually step into the mess, and slip out the back door starting a new plan that will lead him to the end of the Grand Line.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It is fate .

Luffy and Blackbeard fighting is fate. Blackbeard and Whitebeard fighting is fan appeal.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, Whitebeard's word directly contradict your statement that Whitebeard wouldn't let Blackbeard's crimes go unpunished. Seemingly, before Ace forced his hand, Whitebeard was going to ignore Blackbeard's deception. Whether that is because Whitebeard felt that Blackbeard was too powerful for any of his sons, or whatever his "uneasy feeling" was, is currently unknown, but, Whitebeard did clearly say, in the flashback, that he was not going after Blackbeard.

Whitebeard didn't say, in the flashback, that he was not going after Blackbeard. He said, "Ace...it's okay, just this once...I've got a strange, uneasy feeling about this...". That doesn't automatically imply that Whitebeard wouldn't go after him at all. He could have planned to deal with him at a later time. Also, Whitebeard told Shanks that it was his responsibility to teach Blackbeard that you can't cross this world without morality. How would he do that? By sitting idly by and doing nothing? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by james0246

Or, Blackbeard could use the chaos to slip unnoticed into the New World.

Does sneaking by unnoticed into the New World sound like something that would shake the entire world (as stated by Blackbeard at Impel Down)? That sounds pretty subtle to me.

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, yes. As I said, the only reason for Blackbeard to face Whitebeard is if Whitebeard holds vital information needed to attain the title of Pirate King (and no, fighting someone labeled "the Strongest" is not vital for attaining the title of Pirate King).

To become the pirate king, one has to be unanimously considered the strongest in the seas. Of course, even if Blackbeard did land the finishing blow on Whitebeard, he still wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Whitebeard because he is simply not at his level yet. In time, however, Blackbeard will most definitely surpass Whitebeard in strength just as Luffy eventually will at the end of the story.

Originally Posted by james0246

Luffy and Blackbeard fighting is fate. Blackbeard and Whitebeard fighting is fan appeal.

It's not fan appeal. It's perfectly plausible for them to get into a confrontation and there has been foreshadowing that suggests this will come to fruition.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Whitebeard didn't say, in the flashback, that he was not going after Blackbeard. He said, "Ace...it's okay, just this once...I've got a strange, uneasy feeling about this...". That doesn't automatically imply that Whitebeard wouldn't go after him at all. He could have planned to deal with him at a later time. Also, Whitebeard told Shanks that it was his responsibility to teach Blackbeard that you can't cross this world without morality. How would he do that? By sitting idly by and doing nothing? I don't think so.

I never indicated that Whitebeard would "never" go after Blackbeard. Rather, I was showing that Whitebeard was willing to let Blackbeard go, even if it was only for a time. Consequently, it is hard to argue when he would go after Blackbeard.

Additionally, since Whitebeard did lie to Shanks concerning Ace, who’s to say he didn't lie (to Shanks) concerning Blackbeard?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Does sneaking by unnoticed into the New World sound like something that would shake the entire world (as stated by Blackbeard at Impel Down)? That sounds pretty subtle to me.

No, but setting up a war, which would give Blackbeard the time needed to get whatever he needs from Impel Down, and then using whatever he gained in Impel Down in the New World, would be more than sufficient to shake the world. I honestly do not know what Blackbeard's end result could be; rather I am simply willing to acknowledge any possibility. Blackbeard fitting in the war would, of course, be interesting. But, to me at least, Blackbeard would be far more 'villainous' if he simply snubbed the war, deeming it unnecessary for him to be involved in.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

To become the pirate king, one has to be unanimously considered the strongest in the seas. Of course, even if Blackbeard did land the finishing blow on Whitebeard, he still wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Whitebeard because he is simply not at his level yet. In time, however, Blackbeard will most definitely surpass Whitebeard in strength just as Luffy eventually will at the end of the story.

Obviously not, or else Roger would have never been considered the Pirate King what with him not defeating Whitebeard and all. Additionally, Whitebeard would have simply become Pirate King upon Roger's death if strength was the only thing that mattered.

And since you think Blackbeard will get to Whitebeard's level in time anyway, does it really matter if he participates in the fight that will actually end Whitebeard and his era?

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It's not fan appeal. It's perfectly plausible for them to get into a confrontation and there has been foreshadowing that suggests this will come to fruition.

Not really. Is it plausible? Sure. But it is not (with the info we currently have) truly necessary. There was ample foreshadowing that Ace would confront Blackbeard, but not much (besides Whitebeard saying that he would potentially deal with the situation) concerning Whitebeard and Blackbeard. There is far more foreshadowing, though, concerning a Luffy and Blackbeard encounter - that is an encounter facilitated by fate.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Obviously not, or else Roger would have never been considered the Pirate King what with him not defeating Whitebeard and all. Additionally, Whitebeard would have simply become Pirate King upon Roger's death if strength was the only thing that mattered.

I never said that strength was the only thing that mattered, but being the strongest is certainly a prerequisite in becoming the pirate king. This is true because the elites are also vying for the title of pirate king amongst the vast hordes of pirates. Why do you think becoming the pirate king is a very difficult endeavor? Part of it has to do with strength. If one is not strong enough, they're going to be swept aside very easily by the best of their competition.

As for Roger and Whitebeard never defeating each other and hence being equals, that doesn't matter because no one ever surpassed Roger in strength and he was declared the pirate king for whatever reasons (conquering the seas, traveling everywhere, etc.). Also, we're not even sure if Whitebeard was interested in becoming the pirate king during Roger's era, and if he wasn't, that would explain why he never became the pirate king.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

As for Roger and Whitebeard never defeating each other and hence being equals, that doesn't matter because no one ever surpassed Roger in strength and he was declared the pirate king for whatever reasons (conquering the seas, traveling everywhere, etc.). Also, we're not even sure if Whitebeard was interested in becoming the pirate king during Roger's era, and if he wasn't, that would explain why he never became the pirate king.

Roger was declared the Pirate King because he made it to Raftel, the end of the Grand Line, thus he conquered it.

[AnbuItachi]

we still dont know blackbeards full potential yet so we can't judge. for all we know, blackbeard is still probably getting used to the powers of the fruit himself. he probably didn't master it yet. i mean if he's so strong, how did his entire crew get whupped by mallegan (sp) ?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by AnbuItachi

we still dont know blackbeards full potential yet so we can't judge. for all we know, blackbeard is still probably getting used to the powers of the fruit himself. he probably didn't master it yet. i mean if he's so strong, how did his entire crew get whupped by mallegan (sp) ?

Maybe he was acting? They definetly got hurt, but it is possible that Blackbeard simply did not want to deal with all of Impel Down, so he let himself get injured/killed, letting Magellan, and consequently the staff of Impel Down, believe that Blackbeard had been dealt with. Then Blackbeard would have free reign over the prison and the ability to make his way down to Level 6 unimpeded.

That's just a guess, of course.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If Whitebeard asked Ace to sit this one out, how is my point a little off? All that means is that Whitebeard felt a little uneasy and that he would deal with Blackbeard himself when the time is right, and this vengeance is something that Blackbeard would surely expect after the heinous crime he committed.



Who says that Whitebeard has to be defeated legitimately? It's pretty clear that no one is on his level and therefore he can beat anyone in a 1 vs 1 fight. That being said, after being exhausted from extensive battle, Blackbeard could finally step in and kill him with a cheap shot.

Do you honestly believe that Whitebeard and Blackbeard won't even confront each other in this war? This whole mess was instigated by Blackbeard and he is the one responsible for putting the Whitebeard pirates through this whole tribulation. I'm sure that before Whitebeard meets his end, both he and Blackbeard would want to exchange a few words with each other. This conversation could also shed some light on Blackbeard's past and what some of his ulterior motives are. Blackbeard and Whitebeard are destined to meet each other. It is fate .

& you'd never hear the end of it from me.

[Would?]

Nice pic Master Mold!

and as just a note: it was never specified that Gold Roger became the pirate king because he got to Raftel, only that he left his treasure there and for all we know he could simply have been the pirate king because he was TRULY the strongest pirate (I hypothesize that since WB has really hax Quake Quake fruit, Roger must have had:

A. Excellent Haki
B. Another extremely strong DF (Gravity Gravity no Fruit?)

[Would?]

And I agree with James blackbeard was either acting or he was so overconfident that he decided it wouldn't be a huge risk to attempt to infiltrate the Gaol which is CRAZY

[AnbuItachi]

doubt its Gravity fruit. Blackbeard has that ability i thought.

Besides it can't be said whitebeard is the strongest so far. What if Akainu has like... supernova fruit or big bang fruit that can wipe out the earth in 1 blow.

[paradox13]

Besides it can't be said whitebeard is the strongest so far

It can because of this:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/


D'OH!

[Rawrz]

Originally Posted by paradox13

It can because of this:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/


D'OH!

Dragon also has the title of "The Most Dangerous and The Most Wanted Man In The World" which sounds much better than "The Strongest Man In The World".There are also a lot of erased yonkou level monsters lurking down in Impel Down level 6.You can never know which one is better.Personally Dragon can own Whitebeard everyday, since Whitebeard is shown to be a former "boss" style character that revealed his powers earlier than Dragon.

Besides according to Iva, World Government will have a "hard-time" dealing with both Whitebeard and Dragon at the same time (If Dragon ever lands in) which pretty much means that WG may have the power to supress both "The Strongest Man" and "The Most Dangerous Man" at the same time.