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Old 2009-08-02, 18:38   Link #3041
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
Ryuukishi challenge, find the truth, etc...
What about casual fans like me who just want a nice, emotional, epic story with a dash of mystery and suspense?
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:39   Link #3042
ghost_zero5
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However, I disagree with you and the "17 persons and therefore it has to be one of those" theory.
After all, it could be that at least one of those 17 persons has also been dead before like Kinzo which would leave room for one more person like the Kanon=Shannon theories.
Acutally, for various reasons I am not to fond of those theories but I at least can't deny that it would be possible.

As said: I can accept that the murders were done by humans. Actually, I expect that BUT I can't except that no magic exists at all. It would be just too "stupid".
Somehow, I think that the loops are being done by a witch. However, for a total different purpose then we currently think and I don't think that witch is the culprit - as said I think the culprit is a human.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:40   Link #3043
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
However, I disagree with you and the 17 persons and therefore it has to be one of those theory.
After all, it could be that at least one of those 17 persons has also been dead before like Kinzo which would leave room for one more person like the Kanon=Shannon theories.
Acutally, for various reasons I am not to fond of those theories but I at least can't deny that it would be possible.
I think the big question is whether or not dead people count as "persons".

Could a helicopter make it through that storm, I wonder? >_>
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:40   Link #3044
Ssol
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Also, if that were the case the whole discussion regarding Lambda and Bern is senseless as they wouldn't exist anyway.
Not necessarily with the following associative logic:

-My will to find a miracle that allows me to escape a tragic fate exists
-I call this will Bernkastel
-Bernkastel exists

I think there could be explanations for everything in Umineko like this.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:41   Link #3045
June 1983
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I don't ignore the magic scenes just because I don't think they are real -- that's like saying you ignore dream sequences because they don't really happen. Just like with dream sequences, even if you believe the magic deaths in Umineko are fake, it doesn't mean you should ignore them. In fact, you should pay all the more attention to them, because more than likely, there are hints to the real events hidden in there; and secondly, the magic scenes in Umineko almost always tell you very important things about the characters -- the biggest and best example being Eva-Beatrice in EP 3.

edit: Anyway, as I tried to explain earlier, just because you are anti-Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean you don't think magic exists. It means, technically, that you think the murders weren't committed with magic. Personally, I don't think Beatrice is a witch, or at least not in the way she presents herself. I do think Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist as some kind of entity, but "witch" is perhaps a label they give themselves when they associate with the world of Umineko.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:42   Link #3046
sento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What about casual fans like me who just want a nice, emotional, epic story with a dash of mystery and suspense?
Enjoy it.

Well, personally I enjoy the story and I enjoy speculation too.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:46   Link #3047
ghost_zero5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think the big question is whether or not dead people count as "persons".

Could a helicopter make it through that storm, I wonder? >_>
If a ship can't get through, a helicopter isn't much more likely. In contrary to planes helicopters are quite "sensitive to" storms/winds. Of course, you don't have problems with the waves, so regarding this he would be at an advantage but the main problem here is the wind and that should be a huge problem for the helicopter.

Quote:
edit: Anyway, as I tried to explain earlier, just because you are anti-Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean you don't think magic exists. It means, technically, that you think the murders weren't committed with magic. Personally, I don't think Beatrice is a witch, or at least not in the way she presents herself. I do think Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist as some kind of entity, but "witch" is perhaps a label they give themselves when they associate with the world of Umineko.
That's a whole different point because that is more or less what I think anyway that the murders were commited by a human but I still think that witches in the Umineko world exist but are maybe not exactly what we think they are or at least their objectives are likely totally different than what it seems.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:48   Link #3048
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Not necessarily with the following associative logic:

-My will to find a miracle that allows me to escape a tragic fate exists
-I call this will Bernkastel
-Bernkastel exists

I think there could be explanations for everything in Umineko like this.
"She also laughs manically and ruins my sister's future life!"

The 'associative logic' kind of stops there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by June 1983 View Post
edit: Anyway, as I tried to explain earlier, just because you are anti-Fantasy doesn't necessarily mean you don't think magic exists. It means, technically, that you think the murders weren't committed with magic.
Well, like I said, it really doesn't matter. I think the murders are committed with magic now, but that won't be the eventual outcome when Battler proves his viewpoint.

Belief equals power. Belief equals reality. A strong enough belief can shape the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Normally, I should answer with something like "are you nuts". If a ship can't get through, a helicopter is even more unlikely. In contrary to planes helicopters are quite "sensitive to" storms/winds. Of course, you don't have problems with the waves, so regarding this he would be at an advantage but the main problem here is the wind and that should be a huge problem for the helicopter.
Okay.

Still, if Suit Beatrice isn't one of the 17 then she has to be getting onto the island somehow AFTER someone dies.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:50   Link #3049
ghost_zero5
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I edited my previous statement a bit. It isn't more unlikely but at least not more likely. Therefore I also removed the first sentence completely

However, it depends on the helicopter. There are some that are more resistent to wind too. However, that is 1986 we are talking about and keeping that in mind, I don't think there existed one that could have made it through the storm.

However, a plane might be able to get through. The problem would just be where to land.

Quote:
Still, if Suit Beatrice isn't one of the 17 then she has to be getting onto the island somehow AFTER someone dies.
I also mentioned the Kanon=Shannon theory which I am not fond of BUT therefore Beatrice or however would be part of the 17 people as the ones we know are only 16 then.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:54   Link #3050
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
However, it depends on the helicopter. There are some that are resistent to wind too. However, that is 1986 we are talking about and keeping that in mind, I don't think there existed one that could have made it through the storm.
Not like they really pay attention to that kind of thing, actually. >_>

It's only set so far back so that no one has the Internet or cellphones, which are far too useful for solving mysteries.

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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
I also mentioned the Kanon=Shannon theory which I am not fond of BUT therefore Beatrice or however would be part of the 17 people as the ones we know are only 16 then.
What about all the romantic development, then?

That would utterly kill it...
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:56   Link #3051
ghost_zero5
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Well: I doubt on an island like Rokkenjima you would have working cell phones (especially in Japan they don't use GSM but more something like DECT and nowadays UMTS). Maybe internet but even that I doubt. At least it wouldn't work when the phones aren't working.
So that can't be the reason. They wouldn't be able to use those things anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What about all the romantic development, then?

That would utterly kill it...
As said that is not my theory and I don't like it/agree with it for various reasons but I don't to bring up that discussion again. We won't reach a point there anyway.
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Old 2009-08-02, 18:59   Link #3052
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Well: I doubt on an island like Rokkenjima you would have working cell phones. Maybe internet but even that I doubt. At least it wouldn't work when the phones aren't working.
Satellites should still be able to send signals.

Modern technology kills classic mysteries. (News at 11.)

That's really the only reason Ryukishi sets his stories so far back.
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:01   Link #3053
ghost_zero5
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Nope. NOT with that storm. Actually, satellites are the most unlikely thing to work as those require a line of sight. If the storm is strong enough, no satellite will ever work
And even if: How many have a satellite telephone because most times you only receive from satellites but not transmit.
Of course, in that case it would be likely as that family has quite some money.

The real problem would be possibilities regarding the murder cases. There would be way more possibilities to do it, e.g. Ep1 Eva could have been killed by a small robot which can shoot stakes and was controlled over a remote.
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:02   Link #3054
USHIROMIYABRAWLER
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Beatrice probably knew she couldn't win going into this. So, in the end she will technically win by meeting what ever goal she had in the first place, which would have to do with 6 years ago. Now, all we need to do is firgure that out.

Maybe, Jessica or Shannon was close to Battler and fealt he abandoned them?
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Hmmm, it was definitely original. It's just that Interval 07 started, I went across a walkway, and got into a seat, and then I.. impregnated.. a consciousness?
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:04   Link #3055
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Nope. NOT with that storm.
Huh, really. Thought modern technology was better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USHIROMIYABRAWLER View Post
Maybe, Jessica or Shannon was close to Battler and fealt he abandoned them?
The problem with it being Jessica or Shannon in the first place is that they HAVE somebody else now. They should have gotten over Battler.
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:07   Link #3056
ghost_zero5
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I added a few lines to my previous post as to why I think, he probably uses such years and a small explanation why satellites won't work and also some other points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
The problem with it being Jessica or Shannon in the first place is that they HAVE somebody else now. They should have gotten over Battler.
Furthermore, for Jessica it would be kinda strange to be "that" close to Battler. Though, of course, it can't be denied: A few decades ago (and I mean ago from 1986 ) that wasn't that uncommon in royal families. I mean marrying cousins and other family relatives.
Also if it was one of them, why would they kill everyone? I mean I would understand killing Battler or his family or something like this but EVERYONE?
Of course, I think it is likely that his cousins missed him. After all they welcomed him "back" nicely but killing everyone AFTER he came back?
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:11   Link #3057
USHIROMIYABRAWLER
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Yes, that happens to be the pitfall in my theories. Though I can only see it as Battler doing something that hurt someone greatly. Choosing Shannon cause she seems to be able to remember small details of the past and Jessica because it seems they was close with all the battler getting beat-up on.
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Hmmm, it was definitely original. It's just that Interval 07 started, I went across a walkway, and got into a seat, and then I.. impregnated.. a consciousness?
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:14   Link #3058
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Also if it was one of them, why would they kill everyone? I mean I would understand killing Battler or his family or something like this but EVERYONE?
Of course, I think it is likely that his cousins missed him. After all they welcomed him "back" nicely but killing everyone AFTER he came back?
From the Anti-Mystery side, couldn't they have been caught in some sort of time loop for a thousand years, driving them mad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USHIROMIYABRAWLER View Post
Yes, that happens to be the pitfall in my theories. Though I can only see it as Battler doing something that hurt someone greatly. Choosing Shannon cause she seems to be able to remember small details of the past and Jessica because it seems they was close with all the battler getting beat-up on.
And of course they're the only girls around Battler's age and the only girls who could dress up as Beatrice and pull it off.
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:14   Link #3059
ghost_zero5
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@USHIROMIYABRAWLER:
However, I agree that Battler and Jessica seem to have a "deeper relationship" (under " because I think it will be misinterpreted otherwise but I just can't remember a better English word currently) than the rest of the cousins. They seem to know each other "more".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
From the Anti-Mystery side, couldn't they have been caught in some sort of time loop for a thousand years, driving them mad?
lol: Actually, that is even Anti-Fantasy as a time loop doesn't have to occur by magic
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:19   Link #3060
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
lol: Actually, that is even Anti-Fantasy as a time loop doesn't have to occur by magic
...Yes it does.

Unless you want to rely on loltimemachines. Which I would describe as magic for the purposes of this story due to the whole "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" thing.
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