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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 Series Rating
Perfect 10 365 44.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 199 24.51%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 92 11.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 76 9.36%
6 out of 10 : Average 31 3.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 20 2.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 9 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 0.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.25%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 1.72%
Voters: 812. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-02, 15:06   Link #1261
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Daisuki View Post
Code Geass was the single anime that had me looking forward to the end of my weekends.

You can't count the farmer out though. Although official sources have stated that he is dead, the reason they made it an open ending was so they could start the story all over again if they ever want to. So the idea of a movie isn't completely impossible.
but they DIDNT make it an open ending
the only hint at a possibility of lelouch being the cart driver came from C.C's "naa...lelouch" line (and even that is only one out of three possibilities)
and even THAT has been jossed repeatedly by everything and finally put to death in the Z-R addition where C.C HERSELF makes it clear that he is dead

they didnt make it an open ending
people just DECIDED that it was an open ending
and they did this by ignoring the implications of lelouch's being alive (namely, that it would turn him into a complete prick)
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Old 2009-08-03, 16:08   Link #1262
Kaioshin Sama
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Can somebody please give me an example of a plot hole in this show again? Any will do. I see this comment so often that I need to know what it is that people are pointing to as plotholes and then maybe I can figure out why this has caught on so much in reactions to a show where I really can't remember glaring plotholes. Like honest to god I have been waiting over a year now for somebody to actually point out a valid show breaking or even just a minor plot hole now. If it's so prevelant sombody has got to have an example that isn't just something they found unrealistic or whatever. Keep in mind that a plot hole is when something happens in a show that should have been impossible based on a contradiction with something else that has happened or been defined prior or concurrently with the event, not something that wasn't explained in full detail as many people seem to think is the definition of a plothole. Like here:

Plot Hole: The 1992 film Rock-a-Doodle also has a plot that seems to contradict itself. Chanticleer is a rooster who appears to cause the sun to rise every morning. When the sun rises without him one morning, the other characters believe he is a fraud and so he leaves. It then begins to rain eternally and so the lead characters search for Chanticleer so that he can make the sun rise again. Thus the narrative contradicts whether or not Chanticleer does indeed cause the sun to rise, and if so, it never explains why it rose without him at the film's beginning.

Not A Plot Hole: The World of C which is the collective unconsiousness of the human race somehow exists as an accessible location in the human world as ruins, but it is never explained who build these ruins or how they managed to connect them to subspace or whatever.

Ones a plot hole, the other is just an unfortunately half-baked idea that could have used more exposition. That's kind of one of the reasons why I am hoping for a sequel. They really left a lot of concepts hanging.

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Ok, it had poor editing and they prefered to air the next episode as soon as possible. It still makes it sound bad.
What you mean like weekly? How is this out of the ordinary or bad?

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Old 2009-08-03, 16:51   Link #1263
bladeofdarkness
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if by plot hole you mean something that outright contredicts the established rules of the universe
i might have something for you

suzaku's geass curse suddenly becoming something that he triggers intentionally
putting aside the whole "why can he trigger it intentionally (which is also odd)
the contrediction part comes from the fact that so far, every time lelouch orders someone to do something, they cant remember what happened or what they did
if suzaku's geass command triggers then he shouldnt be able to remember anything that happened during its activation time
he should just sort of "wake up" after each use in a dazed state

a second plot hole comes from the fact that while shnizel had always been presented as lelouch's equal and most difficult rival (intelectually) in the last arc lelouch is able to predict EVERYTHING about him
including that he would try to escape the moment that Lelouch boards the damocles and then EVERYTHING that he would say
in a conversation that SHNIZEL STARTS
right down to what questions he would ask and how fast he would talk
and the conversation that they have is a deep philosophic debate over the nature of mankind

the first example contredicts the way that lelouch's geass works for about 46 episodes
the other contredicts shnizel's position as lelouch's arch-rival in the most pethetic way (enough in my opinion to be called contredictory)
it would be like suzaku losing to tamaki in KMF combat in terms of outright defengment as a threat

but in general i think that most people care less about actual "plot holes" and more about wallbangers
i know thats what I usually care about more
plot holes require you to sit down and think about eamples
wallbangers are self evident (the second example i gave is either a plot hole or a wallbanger, not sure which is better)
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Old 2009-08-03, 16:58   Link #1264
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The Geass Command was never shown to be contradicted. It activates in two ways: when Suzaku himself intends to die, or when someone tells him to live. This was first demonstrated when Euphy told him to live, in the first season. As for the memory loss, we've got nothing to show that he actually does remember what he does. If he trained himself to use the Geass Command to his advantage, then its likely he's trained himself to no longer be dazed when he puts it into use.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:02   Link #1265
bladeofdarkness
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The Geass Command was never shown to be contradicted. It activates in two ways: when Suzaku himself intends to die, or when someone tells him to live. This was first demonstrated when Euphy told him to live, in the first season. As for the memory loss, we've got nothing to show that he actually does remember what he does. If he trained himself to use the Geass Command to his advantage, then its likely he's trained himself to no longer be dazed when he puts it into use.
none of which apply in that later cases when he triggers it when ever he feels like it
and how do you train yourself to not be dazed by waking up in the middle of the fight only to discover that you just beat someone to death with their own skull
that doesnt seem physically possible
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:04   Link #1266
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Well we already know that Suzaku has inhuman capabilities. As for Suzaku activating it on his own, we know that if he feels he must die, it activates. As such, it stands to reason that the reverse can be true. If Suzaku may feel he must live, the Geass command could activate like that as well. In fact, by actively working with the command, it may grant him a bit more control over it, such as letting him choose how he should live on.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:07   Link #1267
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it still contredicts what it means
and he starts resisting it even before the last arc, during his fight with bismark (saying it was telling him to run but he was resisting it)
and there had never been another geass command that worked like that

but like i said
i care more about wallbangers then plot holes
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:10   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
it still contredicts what it means
and he starts resisting it even before the last arc, during his fight with bismark (saying it was telling him to run but he was resisting it)
and there had never been another geass command that worked like that

but like i said
i care more about wallbangers then plot holes
He was resisting it because he was continually putting himself in danger by going up against an opponent with a bigger sword and the ability to predict his movements. By that time, he had not accepted the Geass placed on him and thus could not work with it or work around it like he was able to after Lelouch and him teamed up for Zero Requiem.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:12   Link #1269
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but he was able to resist it ?
usually lelouch can tell somoene to shoot themselves in the head and they would smile while they do it
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:13   Link #1270
Rising Dragon
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He wasn't able to resist it for long, as you know. He eventually bolted. Sure, he did it so he could try and stop Lelouch, but that still required giving in and fleeing from the danger of fighting Bismarck.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:40   Link #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if by plot hole you mean something that outright contredicts the established rules of the universe
i might have something for you

suzaku's geass curse suddenly becoming something that he triggers intentionally
putting aside the whole "why can he trigger it intentionally (which is also odd)
the contrediction part comes from the fact that so far, every time lelouch orders someone to do something, they cant remember what happened or what they did
if suzaku's geass command triggers then he shouldnt be able to remember anything that happened during its activation time
he should just sort of "wake up" after each use in a dazed state
If you absolutely accept that interpretation of the events then I guess one could consider it's a plot hole, but of course I don't. Still it's an example and something to go on.

Quote:
a second plot hole comes from the fact that while shnizel had always been presented as lelouch's equal and most difficult rival (intelectually) in the last arc lelouch is able to predict EVERYTHING about him
including that he would try to escape the moment that Lelouch boards the damocles and then EVERYTHING that he would say
in a conversation that SHNIZEL STARTS
right down to what questions he would ask and how fast he would talk
and the conversation that they have is a deep philosophic debate over the nature of mankind.
That's more of a contrivance than anything else so it fits in more with my whole not a plot hole examples.

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but he was able to resist it ?
usually lelouch can tell somoene to shoot themselves in the head and they would smile while they do it
Nunally was also able to try and resist Lelouch's Geass but eventually gave in, same as when Suzaku was about to have the on foot sword fight against Bismark. It was shown twice and if I have to guess it's because they had unusually strong wills. Nobody has ever staved off the acceptance of it for more than a few seconds, but if you can be aware of it I don't see any reason why you couldn't exert a little influence on exactly when it triggers. It all depends on the command. For example if someone is geassed and the command is "when you look at the colour blue you will jump on your head and do a handstand" then there's no reason why they couldn't do that on their own voluntarily. Likewise if someone puts themselves in mortal danger and has a geass that causes their mind to resist it and it just happens to contradict another persons geass so that they now see two possibilities (one the concious will, the other the subconcious will) then I don't see how that is a plot hole. See what trips a lot of people up is that they think Suzaku was controlling what he was doing when he went to attack Bismarck, but really it's all on Bismarck's end and the inability of his future sight to resolve the two wills (I guess the flashy way in which they show the two paths Suzaku could make from Bismarck's POV is what people mistakenly refer to when they call it a "power up", but just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is) of Suzaku that have entirely different attack patterns. He had two choices to make and he chose wrong and was surprised and killed by Suzaku. Bismarck's reliance on his Geass is the only reason that the Live command works out for Suzaku the way it does in that situation and it's not a "power up".

That's all there is to that scene, but man if people just don't remember it right anymore. Sometimes I remember how much people actually remember the events of Code Geass so much as they remember what they think they remember about Code Geass based on the intensely negative and exaggerated reactions leading up to the viewpoint. Uncle John could probably do an entire section of his mythconceptions on Code Geass for the next bathroom reader.

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Old 2009-08-03, 17:44   Link #1272
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if you want to call it a contrivance i'll except it
but you at least have to concede that it was a big one

and like i said
i usually find wallbangers more significent then plot holes
they are usually more facepalm inducing
after all, unlike plot holes, someone had actually set down and WROTE the wallbanger
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:55   Link #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if you want to call it a contrivance i'll except it
but you at least have to concede that it was a big one

and like i said
i usually find wallbangers more significent then plot holes
they are usually more facepalm inducing
after all, unlike plot holes, someone had actually set down and WROTE the wallbanger
It's a pretty big contrivance, but I mean I don't tend to dwell on these sorts of things like you do so I wouldn't call it a wallbanger or face palmer.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:55   Link #1274
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usually the face palm is an immediate reaction
dwelling is not required
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Old 2009-08-03, 19:36   Link #1275
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If Suzaku may feel he must live, the Geass command could activate like that as well. In fact, by actively working with the command, it may grant him a bit more control over it, such as letting him choose how he should live on.
He would have to to be utterly convinced that his one and only method of survival is to do said thing. Not that he couldn't do such a thing, of course.

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He wasn't able to resist it for long, as you know. He eventually bolted. Sure, he did it so he could try and stop Lelouch, but that still required giving in and fleeing from the danger of fighting Bismarck.
His thoughts weren't about living, so he wasn't running because of it. He was running because he was put off that Lelouch stole his thunder, so to speak. That he was never going to beat Bismarck may have helped, but that wasn't his primary motivation.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Nunally was also able to try and resist Lelouch's Geass but eventually gave in, same as when Suzaku was about to have the on foot sword fight against Bismark. It was shown twice and if I have to guess it's because they had unusually strong wills. Nobody has ever staved off the acceptance of it for more than a few seconds, but if you can be aware of it I don't see any reason why you couldn't exert a little influence on exactly when it triggers.
Nunnally and Suzaku are different circumstances. Geass says run and Suzaku denies it. He never obeys the command, at least not with any expediency or evidence of resistance. Nunnally could barely control her own movements.

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See what trips a lot of people up is that they think Suzaku was controlling what he was doing when he went to attack Bismarck, but really it's all on Bismarck's end and the inability of his future sight to resolve the two wills (I guess the flashy way in which they show the two paths Suzaku could make from Bismarck's POV is what people mistakenly refer to when they call it a "power up", but just because it looks like one doesn't mean it is) of Suzaku that have entirely different attack patterns. He had two choices to make and he chose wrong and was surprised and killed by Suzaku. Bismarck's reliance on his Geass is the only reason that the Live command works out for Suzaku the way it does in that situation and it's not a "power up".
Except that's not at all how it happened. Bismarck's future POV is dead on, both before and after Suzaku's Geass is running. Even the final blow ran exactly as predicted. Suzaku was just moving too fast for anything to be done about it.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:05   Link #1276
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He would have to to be utterly convinced that his one and only method of survival is to do said thing. Not that he couldn't do such a thing, of course.
Which is fairly easy to do for some people. I'm just saying its a possibility, since his willing activation seems to be entirely mentally based.

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His thoughts weren't about living, so he wasn't running because of it. He was running because he was put off that Lelouch stole his thunder, so to speak. That he was never going to beat Bismarck may have helped, but that wasn't his primary motivation.
I disagree that the Geass command had nothing to do with it. Yes, I said he had different reasons for running like he did, but it was still influenced by the Geass command--when he bailed out to go stop Lelouch, his eyes were aglow with the red rings, signifying that the Geass command had control of him again. Which means that, essentially, he stopped resisting the command and let it run its course, regardless of whether or not he meant to.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:12   Link #1277
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Which is fairly easy to do for some people. I'm just saying its a possibility, since his willing activation seems to be entirely mentally based.

I disagree that the Geass command had nothing to do with it. Yes, I said he had different reasons for running like he did, but it was still influenced by the Geass command--when he bailed out to go stop Lelouch, his eyes were aglow with the red rings, signifying that the Geass command had control of him again. Which means that, essentially, he stopped resisting the command and let it run its course, regardless of whether or not he meant to.
I won't argue that. He certainly is fulfilling its wish by bolting. He couldn't have won.

As I've said elsewhere, I find his willful activation of his Geass perfectly acceptable. Just a little self-delusion will accomplish that. What gets me is the fact that he's in full control of himself and remembers exactly what he's doing. That's when it stops playing by the rules.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:28   Link #1278
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Well, we don't know if he remembers all of it. We also don't know if he doesn't remember all of it, which is the problem. As for the total control, I just think that he's given some leeway or able to influence the path taken by the Command if he isn't fighting it. It seems to me he's working with it, so he's able to alter what path it takes, so long as that path still keeps him from dying.

Kinda like at when he's using the anti-FLEIJA spear. I imagine normally, the command would've made him bail if he stood still near an impending FLEIJA explosion. But by working with the command, he's able to choose his response... and that makes him choose "Hey, let's use this spear to neutralize the explosion so I stay alive."

That's how I see it, at any rate.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:41   Link #1279
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Well, we don't know if he remembers all of it. We also don't know if he doesn't remember all of it, which is the problem. As for the total control, I just think that he's given some leeway or able to influence the path taken by the Command if he isn't fighting it. It seems to me he's working with it, so he's able to alter what path it takes, so long as that path still keeps him from dying.

Kinda like at when he's using the anti-FLEIJA spear. I imagine normally, the command would've made him bail if he stood still near an impending FLEIJA explosion. But by working with the command, he's able to choose his response... and that makes him choose "Hey, let's use this spear to neutralize the explosion so I stay alive."

That's how I see it, at any rate.
A perfectly reasonable explanation, I must admit, though even being capable of such reasoning seems a bit of a stretch to me. Geass commands are always shown to work like "do this" or "figure out how to do this." Take Suzaku first getting pegged with the command. It was "live" and that's it. That was his answer to any questions about his actions, his only thought at the time (like when FLEIJA was fired). Even taking into account that he works out how to live ahead of time, like when FLEIJA is fired, the fact that he's holding entire conversations with it active seems a big stretch to me.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:58   Link #1280
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Well its not like the person fulfilling the command goes entirely brain-dead while the command is carried out. They'll be conscious during its effects, as is everyone who gets spoken to when a command is being fulfilled (for example, the Intel guys speaking to Suzaku about there being nothing to report). Its just that they won't remember it afterwards.

Usually, the command is some specific instruction, like "Fetch me a rock," or "Deliver this toothpick". "Live" is a pretty vague command, and can be fulfilled a number of ways. I imagine that the command Suzaku has, when he attempts to resist it or doesn't work with it, makes him do the easiest method of fulfilling it: Get the hell out of the way. Simple and effective.

I just think that if he works with the command, he's able to choose the other, less-effective methods of survival, such as throwing spears at giant antimatter explosions.
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