The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 9]

[Jarmel]

Hmm ok both of you have interesting point of views with this. I can understand Proto's position more as atmosphere can be very interesting if done right(and I feel they didn't focus enough on the desperation) and analyzing it from a psychological point of view is more up my way. I still believe it was a bad idea from the get go and poorly executed but it is interesting to see why someone would like this.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Ok this is directed to anyone that liked this arc. Can you please objectively tell me why you liked the arc? No excuses like you were laughing at people's reactions as that makes you a jackass and is not indicative of the show itself. So was it the characters, the plot, or you just like watching things repeat? There was nothing in the show that indicated quality as far as I can see so please enlighten me. And yes I'm looking for an argument.

I've always been perfectly happy with moe shows displaying little more than slice of life with added comedy, and my tastes have not changed in several years, but I understand that you will effectively have to take me at my word on this. Unless you're already familiar with my tastes from before, of course.

As such, Endless Eight provided me with what amounted to a mental massage of the elements I enjoy in anime, with the added elements of high production values relative to those I have seen elsewhere: it may not be the highest I've ever experienced, but it is well past the threshold for my enjoyment factor, and I generally don't ask for more.

While I would have been happy watching essentially nothing of plot importance happen (ie filler) for eight episodes (or more), the repetition of events did give me an extra edge of fascination. I've always been curious about how different people can interpret the same events in different ways, much like how musicians cover songs. I admit that I do not personally have very much imagination, so it was a pleasure for me to watch how the people at KyoAni could remake the same basic framework of an episode many different ways. Every week was a surprise: what sort of spin would be put on the events this time? How about the next time?

I also admit that I do not deal well with drama and conflict in my fiction, so the lack of it in most of the iterations was a relief: all the SOS Brigade did were fun things, rather than fighting with each other or some such. If there had been unpleasant occurrences repeated throughout the arc, I doubt I would have been so sanguine.

[-Sho-]

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

I made this 4koma in celebration of this horrid arc finally ending >_>

Oh great XD Haruhi owned !

[Gibber]

I think it's been asked before but what did the paper airplanes have to do with this?

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Gibber

I think it's been asked before but what did the paper airplanes have to do with this?

Behold, for the great secret behind the "Nice Plane" is . . .

Spoiler for Do you really wanna know?:

Spoiler for Really?:

Spoiler for Last chance to turn back.:

Absolutely nothing!

[-Sho-]

Spoiler for Warning spolier for the PLANE !:

Spoiler for Like GMT SAID:

Its nothing , yeah just randoms thing to pass the times ....

[OkamiNoKaze]

Originally Posted by Gibber

I think it's been asked before but what did the paper airplanes have to do with this?

the only thing I can come up with is, that the plane was made of or drawn on paper and in one instance notebook papers, paper that could better be used to do "HOMEWORK"

I'm glad this arc is finally done, on to Sighs next, or maybe an original story. You know what this calls for a 'shop of that famous picture of the soldier coming home from WWII and kissing that random nurse, only with Haruhi and Kyon.

I gave this a 10 not just because it's over, but Kyon's Revelation and Haruhi's reaction/rant. It was Priceless. I think it would have been awesome if Haruhi had asked to host the homework party at her place. I like that they reused the suits from Lone Island. Also I think the ants at the beginning were carrying parts of a Ciccada, symbolizing "the End of summer" and also this story. Sadly they skipped the Yukata buying this time, Kyon's reactions are my favorite there. I still the subbers their due, for sticking with this show, and for being able to decipher Mikuru, i think even if I knew Japanese it would be hard to understand her. it just sounds like sobbing to my ears. Also the subs for that part were great, at first I thought maybe it was a subtitle mistake but makes sense otherwise.

I'm thinking this might have needed the 8 episodes to reach the kind of emotional impact, and relief. I think that was part of the charm of this arc, was the rollercoaster ride of emotions, your anticipation at the beginning of each episode that this would be the one, only to come crashing down at Kyon's failure, sometimes having not even gotten up or said anything, those times given to a bit anger.

I still have that feeling that parts 2-7 were assembled in a seemingly random order, and they just changed the loop number accordingly. If that's the case I think that would be an interesting way to do the DVD version.

I think for the DVDs at least in Region 1 they could re-release vol 3. with Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, and then have two volumes for Endless 8, numbered similarly to the Japanese version with something like 3.xxx, or one volume, with the 4 favorite episodes, and special double disc edition, with all 8 parts.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by GMT

Behold, for the great secret behind the "Nice Plane" is . . .

Spoiler for Do you really wanna know?:

Spoiler for Really?:

Spoiler for Last chance to turn back.:

Absolutely nothing!

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Spoiler for Warning spolier for the PLANE !:

Spoiler for Like GMT SAID:

Its nothing , yeah just randoms thing to pass the times ....

This is the exactly reason why I believe that they're truly trolling. <_<

[brocko]

That's what red herrings are meant to be no? Plus they did the same thing back in the end of Lone Syndrome with Kyon's mole.

[Solachinx]

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Ok this is directed to anyone that liked this arc. Can you please objectively tell me why you liked the arc? No excuses like you were laughing at people's reactions as that makes you a jackass and is not indicative of the show itself. So was it the characters, the plot, or you just like watching things repeat? There was nothing in the show that indicated quality as far as I can see so please enlighten me. And yes I'm looking for an argument.

> Art direction: I find the way that each director did the art direction (things like lens flares, image distortions etc) was very unique and interesting; my inner artist practically creamed itself while watching the various deja vu sequences

> Different artstyles: Another supplementary thing for my inner artist to orgasm over; the different ways each episode was animated (along with the various clothes the SOS Brigade wore) was really a treat IMO. Haven't you ever wondered "I wonder what it would look like if BLR (or any other episode, but this one didn't look that great) got a different team to animate it?"

> AMV Material: As Jintor said, there is plenty of stuff in these episodes to which you can make AMVs out of. For example: I'm making a crossover of Little Shop of Horrors and Haruhi, but I don't have a lot of material for one song (The Meek Shall Inherit); I need a clip of Kyon going on a reality-warping acid trip for the final scene in the AMV. Because of E8, I now have 7 different acid trips to choose from! Hoorah!

> The fact that everyone and their mum hates it: I can't really explain this one; there's something about owning that's general looked down upon that appeals to me. This is part of the reason that I like things like anime in general, musicals, shojo, certain cultures, types of food, dresswear etc.

> It's camp: what it says on the tin.

And that's basically it when it comes to the arc in general.

[Ice Block]

Ho ho....

Originally Posted by resoLv777

Hmm, I'm trying to figure out how Kyon would suddenly realize the loop is caused by homework... I mean all of the other times, he simply didn't know... I wonder what sparked his epiphany this time :/

As others have said, simple luck. He even said so himself at the post-climax scene, stating that he hit the jackpot with his spontaneous activity suggestion (well, something along those lines -- its near the scene where there's a shot of the school building IIRC).

Originally Posted by Jarmel

Ok this is directed to anyone that liked this arc. Can you please objectively tell me why you liked the arc? No excuses like you were laughing at people's reactions as that makes you a jackass and is not indicative of the show itself. So was it the characters, the plot, or you just like watching things repeat? There was nothing in the show that indicated quality as far as I can see so please enlighten me. And yes I'm looking for an argument.

What Proto said. Basically, this arc is a good example of a closed loop wherein all elements are reset exactly to their original positions, well, during the reset of course. Yet despite this, minute deviations still occur. Thus, this would be the closest thing to a real time loop -- just like when something starts (one-way entropy or a cycle), it will not stop until an outside force acts upon it. The only difference would be that if there wasn't any noise (deja vu, and Yuki) carried over from previous iterations, the end would never come (though one could say that 15532 iterations are insufficient for the amount of noise to reach critical levels).

----------

Now, on to other parts...

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

You know I prefer my anime to be entertaining.

I dunno mang, last I saw it wasn't your anime. It's not mine (yet) either, as I only have the 2006 DVDs.

Originally Posted by Ninjacat

Good for KyoAni for having such an avid fandom, but I honestly don't believe they deserve it.

They don't even need it. Can't say if they want it though.

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

but the way they strung the fans on with distortions and half-truths about the nature of this "re-airing" (as in the Newtype issue with Disappearance Haruhi on the cover) was at best duplicitous and at worst outright fraudulent.

This is what happens when people take news (even educated speculation!) exclusively from the internet as pure, unadulterated, truth. Newtype never mentioned -- or worded or phrased explicitly or specifically -- anything concerning Disappearance. Provide proper and valid evidence if you refute this claim.

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

I watched the episodes straight in normal order, so I can't comment on that. The novels were written out of order, so I'd say they were just being faithful to the material. In any case, airing a show out of chronological order isn't exactly the same thing as stating or implying there will be new episodes when it's only half true.

And they never officially announced the presence of new episodes at all (at least, not before BLR aired). Provide proper and valid evidence if you refute this claim.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You must not know me that well.

Heh, your walls of text are always an interesting read. Though, I seldom go tl;dr when it gets late.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Yes, people being displeased with eight episodes of basically the same narrative over and over again, and people being displeased by a halted plot, is understandable. I get how many people don't find this level of repetition to be entertaining in the least, and are hence voicing their displeasure at it. I understand why you don't like the arc concept."

As stated by dkellis, the haters also need to agree to this compromise. That's the whole point of the above, after all. The way it was (is?), E8 fans are being looked down on -- discriminated even -- by the majority composed of haters (and bandwagon trolls). Almost like racism. Oh! Now the Hitler video makes so much sense.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

KyoAni could next do, in order of what I'd like to see:

a) Little Busters
b) Disappearance
c) Something entirely new
d) FMP
c) K-On 2

->Planetarian - don't know what this is? Go find out!
a) Little Busters

Originally Posted by Akka

there was not the feeling of despair that had been so beautifully rendered in one of the previous iteration (the second IIRC ?).

E8-2 had Shock. E8-3 had Mystery. E8-4 had Despair. E8-5 had Sadness/Melancholy. E8-6 had Indifference. E8-7 had Despair (and Haruhi's epic smirk). Well, that's according to my interpretation anyway.

Originally Posted by Jintor

Interesting that they've never asked how many times they've found out? I heard a theory that the episode they'd ask that would be the one to break the loop, but I guess that was Jossed.

When they skipped that part of the infodump, I went back to "it won't end" mentality right away. But then I remembered Yuki's geometric-patterned Yukata, and all was right with the world.

And yes, Gibber, the plane is a lie. Nothing more than a red herring -- much like Kyon's mole in Lone Island II.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I've always been perfectly happy with moe shows displaying little more than slice of life with added comedy, and my tastes have not changed in several years, but I understand that you will effectively have to take me at my word on this. Unless you're already familiar with my tastes from before, of course.

As such, Endless Eight provided me with what amounted to a mental massage of the elements I enjoy in anime, with the added elements of high production values relative to those I have seen elsewhere: it may not be the highest I've ever experienced, but it is well past the threshold for my enjoyment factor, and I generally don't ask for more.

While I would have been happy watching essentially nothing of plot importance happen (ie filler) for eight episodes (or more), the repetition of events did give me an extra edge of fascination. I've always been curious about how different people can interpret the same events in different ways, much like how musicians cover songs. I admit that I do not personally have very much imagination, so it was a pleasure for me to watch how the people at KyoAni could remake the same basic framework of an episode many different ways. Every week was a surprise: what sort of spin would be put on the events this time? How about the next time?

I also admit that I do not deal well with drama and conflict in my fiction, so the lack of it in most of the iterations was a relief: all the SOS Brigade did were fun things, rather than fighting with each other or some such. If there had been unpleasant occurrences repeated throughout the arc, I doubt I would have been so sanguine.

For what it's worth, I now perfectly understand why you enjoyed Endless Eight. It makes sense.

I'm a lover of conflict/drama/suspense... but for someone who's not into that, and who is into slice of life... yeah, I can definitely see such a person loving Endless Eight. It's as close to pure slice of life as there is.

[drpassafiume]

You know, I've read all the posts where people think they're being trolled...

And I've read the posts where they think it's a ploy to bring out all the true fans...

And I've read the posts that think they're getting trolled, and laugh at it, because it's like an Andy Kaufman joke.

I suppose I've been amused, and I've suffered, and fretted. I never got mad at anyone though, I mean, the first season was released out of order, they had to top that somehow, but instead of dragging the first story (and the most important of season 1) out until the last episode, with allusion to the content throughout (someday in the rain anyone?) they just did the same episode over 8 times (or was it 7? did I miscount?) and then they get to what we want. I don't care what Kyoani says, I'm putting my cash on "Dissapearance" and that's it... I actually hope they skip most of sighs, I wasn't too impressed with the novel myself...

[GMT]

I find I enjoy re-watching the last cafe scene. Especially the imagining the reactions of the SOS Brigade members to Haruhi asking them if they want to do anything else:

Mikuru - "Kill me. Please, just kill me now."
Itsuki - "Brave face. Brave face, Itsuki. Can't lose control. Gotta be fabulous."
Yuki - "Hmm. Did I leave the iron on?"
Kyon - "SHUT UP! I'M TRYING TO SET YOU ON FIRE WITH MY MIND!"

If only I had a decent video editing tool.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Ho ho....

As others have said, simple luck. He even said so himself at the post-climax scene, stating that he hit the jackpot with his spontaneous activity suggestion (well, something along those lines -- its near the scene where there's a shot of the school building IIRC).

What Proto said. Basically, this arc is a good example of a closed loop wherein all elements are reset exactly to their original positions, well, during the reset of course. Yet despite this, minute deviations still occur. Thus, this would be the closest thing to a real time loop -- just like when something starts (one-way entropy or a cycle), it will not stop until an outside force acts upon it. The only difference would be that if there wasn't any noise (deja vu, and Yuki) carried over from previous iterations, the end would never come (though one could say that 15532 iterations are insufficient for the amount of noise to reach critical levels).

----------

Now, on to other parts...

I dunno mang, last I saw it wasn't your anime. It's not mine (yet) either, as I only have the 2006 DVDs.

They don't even need it. Can't say if they want it though.

This is what happens when people take news (even educated speculation!) exclusively from the internet as pure, unadulterated, truth. Newtype never mentioned -- or worded or phrased explicitly or specifically -- anything concerning Disappearance. Provide proper and valid evidence if you refute this claim.

And they never officially announced the presence of new episodes at all (at least, not before BLR aired). Provide proper and valid evidence if you refute this claim.

Heh, your walls of text are always an interesting read. Though, I seldom go tl;dr when it gets late.

As stated by dkellis, the haters also need to agree to this compromise. That's the whole point of the above, after all. The way it was (is?), E8 fans are being looked down on -- discriminated even -- by the majority composed of haters (and bandwagon trolls). Almost like racism. Oh! Now the Hitler video makes so much sense.

->Planetarian - don't know what this is? Go find out!
a) Little Busters

E8-2 had Shock. E8-3 had Mystery. E8-4 had Despair. E8-5 had Sadness/Melancholy. E8-6 had Indifference. E8-7 had Despair (and Haruhi's epic smirk). Well, that's according to my interpretation anyway.

When they skipped that part of the infodump, I went back to "it won't end" mentality right away. But then I remembered Yuki's geometric-patterned Yukata, and all was right with the world.

And yes, Gibber, the plane is a lie. Nothing more than a red herring -- much like Kyon's mole in Lone Island II.

To be fair though, in most situations and most likely this, they would be stuck in the time loop. Either you would have broken out of by the 100th time(by the time that you try every single possible idea you have) or you would be stuck permanently.

Also I don't believe this would be a great example of a time loop because even before noise is introduced through Nagato there was changes via Kyon's behaviour in his own house. It also seems that the wipes or resets were not absolute as he had flashes from previous loops.

The reason why people are expecting Disappearance is because of that Newtype article that showed a long haired Haruhi with that other high school's uniform and I believe(this part I'm not sure about) the original second season website mentioned something about it before it got closed down.

Overall it seems people are thinking of this as more interesting from an artistic point of view moreso than a narrative aspect. This is where people are splitting off. People like me want the story to progress so we see as much of the novels animated as possible while some other people don't mind if Kyo-Ani experiment with the artistic style.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I never said that anyone who has not changed their mind should do any backpedalling. If one's mind has been changed for whatever reason, by all means state as much, and be prepared to reiterate and explain this change of opinion when challenged, but they are free to act as their new change of opinion would dictate.

As for your posts, my primary problem (as is, indeed, my problem with many of the posts in general) is the framing of the argument.

I consider this acceptable:



I consider this borderline:



Here, an addition along the lines of "so we must agree to disagree" would go a long way in defusing potential tension.

Now, let's look at what you posted:



My interpretation based on the language used: "The fanbase has gone crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating", and "they were right to think we are idiots." The "If" does not strike me as a supposition, as much as a statement that this is happening right now.

I am challenging your assertion that "the fanbase has gone crawling back submissively to Kyoani like a dog the day after a beating". What is this beating? What harm, direct or indirect, has been caused by any dislike of E8? And by "harm" I differentiate it from feelings of "distress and disgust" (Kieran, M. (1997) "Harm, Offense, and Media Censorship", in Media Ethics: A Philosophical Approach. New York: Praeger.), which do not fulfil the harm condition. Harm here would have been fulfilled if E8 had resulted in "the fanbase" being unable to function as freely in their life and activities as before (I realize this is a compressed definition). While I cannot discount the possibility that someone, somewhere, has been so affected by E8 that they are indeed so incapacitated, I would put forth the argument that this does not apply to "the fanbase", as a group.

How would changing one's mind about E8 be construed as "crawling back submissively"? Why "crawling", instead of "walking" or "strolling"? For a more neutral word, "proceeding", or "moving"?

As for "they were right to think we are idiots", this has the unspoken assertion that KyoAni has the view of the fanbase as a whole as idiots, and our actions somehow confirm their view. Putting aside the exact definition of "idiot" we are working with, I challenge the original assertion that KyoAni views us as idiots, and would also request elaboration on how changing our minds about E8 does confirm the view of us, the fanbase, as idiots.

My objections have never been about the opposing view, of those dislike E8. I honestly do not mind if you hate E8; what I do mind is if you hate those of us who like E8.

If you do not want to give that impression, then you may wish to pick your words with greater care.

(Yes, I know there's a logical fallacy I can quote here that would shorten all of this, but I can't remember what it is.)



Pearson, M. (2007). The Journalist's Guide To Media Law: dealing with legal and ethical issues. 3rd Ed. New South Wales: Allen and Unwin.

The context is in the definition of defamation, whereby the various varieties of imputation and implication are defined as best as they could be based on current law. The point I was making was that the standard I am using in judging a message's intent is whether a rational, reasonable, moderately intelligent person (ie "the average person") will be able to (or is likely to) interpret the message in a certain way. It's related to the point about the spirit-of-the-law and the letter-of-the-law: if the message is framed in such a way that A Reasonable Person may find it offensive (or defamatory, as the cited work sets as an example), then that message may be considered to be offensive.

In other words, I don't accept the defense of "I didn't insult you personally, so it doesn't count".

I think that you and I have views of the world too different for us to ever see things eye to eye.

[Little Buster]

Its OVER!!! On to Disappearance!

[Gibber]

Ack, that really was evil then. And here I thought that Haruhi had wanted to play with planes or something lol.

[Scython]

How on earth can people possible label this as a 10-rating episode?

[Sheba]

And what do YOU want to hear as answer?