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View Poll Results: Vote for your favorite Nanoha StrikerS character
Fate T. Harlaown 221 64.43%
Nanoha Takamachi 163 47.52%
Hayate Yagami 91 26.53%
Signum 100 29.15%
Vita 93 27.11%
Reinforce Zwei 76 22.16%
Lutecia Alpino 32 9.33%
Jail Scaglietti 18 5.25%
Erio Mondial 41 11.95%
Caro Ru Lushe 44 12.83%
Teana Lanster 85 24.78%
Subaru Nakajima 87 25.36%
Ginga Nakajima 53 15.45%
Vivio 84 24.49%
Other 46 13.41%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 343. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-06, 19:50   Link #161
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
About the True Art Is Angsty comment... I find Nanoha a special case as there's quite a lot shit happening to the characters (Fate is a major example), but the anime stays fiercly idealistic.

Everyone's life has worth, even if you're a clone created as a plaything by an insane sociopath of a mother. And even if you're Clone Jesus, you'll still love your mother.

What I want to say is that either you have cynical shows or you have idealistic shows in which there's barely any angst, with much more COURAGE. Nanoha is different in that regard.
That's the charm of it, yes. These characters probably should be angsting more... but they're not... and that's what makes them so admirable to a certain extent.
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Old 2009-08-06, 20:13   Link #162
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A few things to say.

First, about quattro. I am not sure if it's explicitly said, buti really got the impression Quattro got brainwashed by Due in the StrikerS manga.i would like someone else come back to me on that, especially if there is something in the Sound Stage.

Nanoha... i think Nanoha has self-worth problems. it's nt quite outright said, but the way she resisted taking Vivio because she felt inadequate, the way she goes all out...it seems to me that she believes her life isn't worth as much as other people's.

Also, a big difference between what Tia did and What Nanoha did was that Tia endangered a teammate because of pride, and then convinced that same teammate to help in a risky and useless maneuver training (useless in the sense that Nanoha was going to slowly help tia about it, but felt tia would improve more efficiently on other things first).

And, yeah, Nanoha is intelligent. She may have blocks in her ability to see things like love, but she is intelligent, and extremely hard working, not only in the "let's do our best when there are emergencies", but also in the "let's do our best constantly" category.
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Old 2009-08-06, 22:11   Link #163
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Oh, this must be what you mean over in the other thread...
Yep *nod nod*

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Okay, the problem here is you're arguing the quality of the character based on the results. I'm sure a bunch of folks in the Military, Authority, and Decisions thread would plotz if I made the argument that Hayate's tactics were brilliant in the final battle because they resulted in all the villains being captured except for Due and Zest, the Cradle stopped, the city of Cranagan largely protected, all the kidnap victims (Ginga, Vivio, Megane) recovered alive, well, and de-brainwashed, and nobody getting killed except for Regius Gaiz (whom I would argue that Due should have gutted him, tied his intestines to his desk, and kicked him out the window while he was still alive...but I really, really don't like Gaiz and that's not the topic here anyway).
Well, that'd be because we're talking about results here. Hayate's tactics and Nanoha's development as a character to arrive where she was at 9, when we first saw her, are very different things... (and as for Regius being killed, yes it's not the topic here, but I agree, he died far too easily and anyway, if Due had killed him under your suggested scenario it would be too gory for a pseudo magical girl show, lol.)

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
You're right: Nanoha was thrown into a situation where she had to adapt fast or get killed. The point is, most nine-year-old kids in her situation would...get killed. I know that I would have. Heck, Yuuno would have--that's why he needed Nanoha's help in the first place. Nanoha, on the other hand, thrived. She picked up the pointy blasting stick and never looked back.
It's the simple-minded way in which she views things. She's an idealist and believes she carries the well-being of the entire world (not entirely untrue, as a matter of fact) as soon as she knows what Yuuno is trying to do. She's good at empathizing with her peers and, typically, she never says 'no' to someone asking for her help, especially if she thinks "Hey, the entire world is depending on me. If I can help save lives, how can I say no to that?".

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Simple. I didn't say that and I'm not going to argue in favor of it. What I'm pointing out is that Nanoha does not follow "push yourself for no reason"--her "zenryoku zenkai" philosophy is just that: all out, all the time. That's how she developed Starlight Breaker Plus, by going to full strength in a training session (A's manga). By StrikerS it's said that she learned her lesson from when she was nearly killed, but she doesn't act that way when she goes into battle (though--I will point out that we're not presented with situations where she can hold back, as you do point out).
If we can't see battles in which she doesn't need her full potential, we can't possibly say that she, indeed, goes all out, all the time. Almost, if not all, battles in StrikerS basically force her to break one limit after the other, ending up in the Blaster 3 battle against Vivio in which she used up 5 Starlight Breakers to get the relic out of her, and even then Vivio was still concious and, with difficulty, but she could still stand up... If she hadn't gone "Zenryoku zenkai" could she have won? I highly doubt it.

No, wait... there is one 'battle' if you could call it that. The first deployment of the forwards in episode 5, I think, she and Fate eliminated the aeriel drones hindering the safe flight of the helicopter carrying the four kids. She and Fate go into Aggressor and Impulse forms, which are, as I understand it, their 'normal' modes, no extra boosts or nothing. Since it was a fight that required minimum effort on her part, she didn't use anything more powerful. Her attacks consisted of 1 small buster-type shot that didn't even use a cartridge and Axel Shooter. See? She doesn't go all out unless she needs to.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
I'd say that Nanoha, as a teacher, believes in the "do as I say, not as I do" principle. On some level, she probably even realizes that she's psychologically incapable of doing less than her utmost.
Not entirely true either. Although you've got a point there: She never will do less than her utmost, but it's acceptable to go over the limit when there's no other way out. Then and only then.

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Thank you!
I'm a big fan and I've yet to get around to read Stahlkönigin, but I've read all the rest and I'm really hooked now I'm hoping you and RadiantBeam will have more exchanges so you'll continue to write more wonderful fics (both of you )

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Well, she's never even once shown hesitation to blast the hell out of the enemy when talking didn't work. She'd just rather talk things out. And to be fair, she really does show fairly good judgment in deciding whom to talk to: Fate, Arf, Vita, and Reinforce (You don't see her, for example, asking Quattro to surrender nicely and hand Vivio back.). Given the ridiculous number of villains who reform in MGLN, getting to understand the enemy's motivations and convincing them that there would be a better way to mutually accomplish their goals isn't necessarily a bad plan.
We're talking about Nanoha as a child here, not when she's 19 in StrikerS !

But that's precisely my point: She'd rather talk first and get the enemy to explain themselves, instead of blasting them away. While it's a good plan, it's also a naive plan. When you're a criminal comitting questionable actions, you don't precisely agree to sit down and talk things through with a potential (if not already) enemy; and yet she never loses hope of getting around the firepower and instead into peacefully settling things... As for Quattro... well, I think even Nanoha had accepted the fact that you simply can't talk things with her. She happily used a child (her daughter, though not biological or whatever, the bond had still already been formed) and taunted her with images of her struggling comrades battling throughout Mid-Childa for the sole purpose of torturing her psychologically and delighting in it all the while; and while she may be a good judge of character, I think her judgement was already impaired by the sight of her daughter suffering and being brainwashed. When motherhood instincts kick in, I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume all rationality gets thrown out the window.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
It's not so much childishness as it is idealism. Nanoha never claims that force isn't necessary to defend innocents against those who refuse to listen to reason, but she's not going to be the one to fire the first shot.
Hmm, point for you. But if it had been, say, Chrono in Nanoha's place, he would've most certainly used any means to arrest them and then got them to talk. Sort of like "blast them first, ask questions later" instead of Nanoha's tactics, which are a mirror image to the former.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
It's not so much about skill level--it's about her willingness, indeed eagerness, to accept the responsibility of what she was doing. Unlike other magical girl heroines, Nanoha never complains about having the way the job basically fell into her normal life, never "just wants to be normal," or any of it. She basically sees that now that she has power, she can do good things with it, and decides that she needs to do so rather than abrogate responsibility, even when she might be scared, confused, or just inexperienced.

Come to think of it, you never see any Nanoha protagonist whine about their fates. There is just no wangst in this series.
Another standard in the Nanoha series it seems, lol.

Her willingness to participate in the magical world probably stems from the fact that she never truly felt comfortable where she was. Once she found out about magic, she felt like she belonged somewhere. The 'something that I can do. Something that only I can do' was found within magic and for the first time, she felt like she was a part of something, hardly something a person feeling out of place, even within her own family, would be willing to give up to.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Continuing the trope-speak, it's because while everybody gets a handwave as to why they're overly mature in the face of danger, only Nanoha's is weak enough to make my suspension of disbelief go into eyeroll mode.
Touché. Both sides have good arguments though, so I'm guessing it's up to how we want to see it.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
I think that's one reason why I strongly accept the idea that Triangle Heart 3 is canon except where specifically contradicted (Shiro living, Lindy and Chrono's roles, etc.). Nanoha's character makes so much more sense if you first accept that she's the child of a clan of ninja bodyguards.
But Nanoha IS the child of a clan of bodyguards... her father was one at least, and he passed the sword-style to Kyoya, whom in turn taught Miyuki.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
(Precia is certifiably insane, driven out of her mind by grief and (very likely) guilt--she needs institutionalization and therapy.
This made me laugh

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Jail is equally insane and was apparently programmed that way; he had no choice than to be what he is--and he's still a functional "team dad" for the Numbers.
I don't think he was completely insane... There's a very cute scene in the manga in which Uno is cutting his hair, and he seems to genuinely care for the numbers... to a certain degree.

Btw: What exactly do you mean he was 'programmed' that way? He's a cyborg?

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Gaiz, much as I hate him, was originally motivated by idealism and a desire to cure a social ill and to prevent the deaths of innocents.
That doesn't make him any less of a power-hungry jerk that should be hung by his pinky fingers and left to starve for weeks before making him suffer some sort of horrible torture.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Agree completely. Just when you think he's a complete monster, he does something nice. Just when you think he might be redeemable, he does something that makes you boggle in shock and/or disgust.
Jail the Unpredictable. That should be his name, really.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Right. Quattro, I've always thought, is the one, single character in all three anime series who's a complete villain to the core without any redeeming or sympathetic features whatsoever.
Quite true. She's evil because "it's fun" to her. She's a true sadistic, crazy b*%^#.


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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
This is turning into one of my buttons. "Mention befriending and watch DezoPenguin" jump! Maybe it should be a party trick...
Oooh, can we test it out ? (Joke)

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
That being said, while the whole "befriend them until unconscious" gag is funny in gags or the Nano comics or whatever, when seriously discussing canon, it's not even true. The list of people Nanoha "befriended" in the "beat them up to become friends" sense is exactly two:

Arisa (slapped in defense of Suzuka)

Fate (this one we know )

Everyone else...just didn't happen. Vita never gets smacked down by Nanoha (that buster got blocked by Aria, and they never fight on opposite sides again). Hayate never fights her at all (remember that Reinforce pointed out that the Reinforce that was fighting Nanoha and Fate was the defense program, not her or a unisoned Hayate). And Vivio was already her friend when she got nuked ("Mommy, please get this nasty Lost Logia that's allowing the Cradle's computer to manipulate my body in battle out of me so we can go home!").

Okay...Dieci can get an honorable mention for getting blasted and switching sides, though there was no talking between her and Nanoha either before or after IIRC. So she's more like "having doubt instilled by being disgusted by Quattro" instead of "having doubt instilled by Nanoha's initial talk" followed by "zapped by Nanoha" followed by "becoming family with Subaru and friends with Tia and Vivio and the second gen." instead of "becoming friends with Nanoha."
Lol. Nice resume, I was wondering about that too, because even Wikipedia now has the "Nanoha Takamachi" section with a footnote about 'the White Devil' and how characters that get hit by her attacks 'suffer' character development, lol...
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Old 2009-08-07, 10:52   Link #164
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There's a reason Nanoha's Beam Spam is pink!

It's not energetic, accelerated particles, no. It isn't even a Shout Out to the color of beam weapons in Gundam.

It's energetic, accelerated LOVE!

Question of the day: If Nanoha characters were Gundams, which Gundams would they be?

I'm thinking that Nanoha and her massive Beam Spam and Wave Motion Gun abuse could easily fit with Gundam Seravee. Her Barrier Jacket colors also make her look like the original Gundam.

Fate is obviously Gundam Deathscythe. ^^;

Signum is easy--Gundam Exia.

Help me out guys, associate some more Gundams with Nanoha characters!
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Old 2009-08-07, 11:36   Link #165
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Berserk Subaru = Berserk Nobel
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Old 2009-08-07, 11:40   Link #166
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Vice is Cherudim. Teana is Dynames(using the Beam Pistols). Hayate is... a METEOR equipped unit, or the Archangel on steroids.

Subaru would be.... Well, as long as we're keeping within Sunrise, she'd be a Knightmare Frame(the landspinners). Erio would be a Gloucester.

Y DID I WRITE DIS POST I DUN EVEN NOE
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Old 2009-08-07, 12:49   Link #167
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All Humungous Mecha should have wheels in the feet like the landspinners or the slide thing that wanzers in Front Mission do.
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Old 2009-08-07, 14:19   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm thinking that Nanoha and her massive Beam Spam and Wave Motion Gun abuse could easily fit with Gundam Seravee. Her Barrier Jacket colors also make her look like the original Gundam.
It's Gundam -> Hi Nu or Strike (beam pack) -> Strike Freedom actually. For first two -> Strikers. Given that she is White Devil - original Gundam -> Hi Nu is obvious choice.
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Old 2009-08-07, 15:09   Link #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
Vice is Cherudim. Teana is Dynames(using the Beam Pistols). Hayate is... a METEOR equipped unit, or the Archangel on steroids.

Subaru would be.... Well, as long as we're keeping within Sunrise, she'd be a Knightmare Frame(the landspinners). Erio would be a Gloucester.
Erio would be an Ahead. ^^;

I kind of disagree with comparing Subaru to a KMF though. Her fan nickname ain't Gaogaigar-tan for nothing!

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It's Gundam -> Hi Nu or Strike (beam pack) -> Strike Freedom actually. For first two -> Strikers. Given that she is White Devil - original Gundam -> Hi Nu is obvious choice.
Good points.
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Old 2009-08-07, 15:28   Link #170
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Well, if Subaru can't be GaoGaiGar or GaoFighGar...

She'd be the Shining or Burning/God Gundam.

"SUBARU FINGER!"

"Subaru!"

"What?"

"Your finger-based attacks are NOT meant to be used for groping my chest!"

"Sorry, Nanoha-san."
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Old 2009-08-07, 16:54   Link #171
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But Nanoha IS the child of a clan of bodyguards... her father was one at least, and he passed the sword-style to Kyoya, whom in turn taught Miyuki.
...I don't recall actually hearing what Shiro's job was anywhere in canon (Sound Stage maybe?), only that he was badly injured. The family dojo remains intact, of course, but unlike Triangle Heart I don't think we ever see them being anything more than ordinary martial artists as opposed to "go out in the world and slice up Clover Organization bad guys in real, honest-to-goodness combat."

But I like it as if they do.

Quote:
Btw: What exactly do you mean he was 'programmed' that way? He's a cyborg?
Genetically programmed, apparently. Jail was created by the Council (i.e., the brains-in-a-jar part of the Council) to do their Mad Science bidding, breaking down scientific barriers and pushing the limits of research. Clearly, too many years without physical bodies badly impaired their ability to correctly deduce what would happen when you give a guy supergenius intelligence, scientific training, Infinite Ambition (literally...), and government funding.

Quote:
Lol. Nice resume, I was wondering about that too, because even Wikipedia now has the "Nanoha Takamachi" section with a footnote about 'the White Devil' and how characters that get hit by her attacks 'suffer' character development, lol...
Nanoha's "befriending" has pretty much transcended the series itself.
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Old 2009-08-07, 17:02   Link #172
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
...I don't recall actually hearing what Shiro's job was anywhere in canon (Sound Stage maybe?), only that he was badly injured. The family dojo remains intact, of course, but unlike Triangle Heart I don't think we ever see them being anything more than ordinary martial artists as opposed to "go out in the world and slice up Clover Organization bad guys in real, honest-to-goodness combat."

But I like it as if they do.
In the Onsen episode, shiro says something like " "Quite a bit of time has passed, huh? Well... you and the kids don't need to worry about me anymore. From Now on, i'll only the the midoyira inn owner" " and when you couple that with Shiro's body that has some pretty awesome scars...

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Old 2009-08-07, 17:05   Link #173
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post



Genetically programmed, apparently. Jail was created by the Council (i.e., the brains-in-a-jar part of the Council) to do their Mad Science bidding, breaking down scientific barriers and pushing the limits of research. Clearly, too many years without physical bodies badly impaired their ability to correctly deduce what would happen when you give a guy supergenius intelligence, scientific training, Infinite Ambition (literally...), and government funding.


This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?

Granted, he's still a major threat, but you'd think they'd look for ways to genetically cure him maybe, and also give him more merciful jail accommodations.
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Old 2009-08-07, 17:30   Link #174
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This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?

Granted, he's still a major threat, but you'd think they'd look for ways to genetically cure him maybe, and also give him more merciful jail accommodations.
I don't remember anything from the show specifically saying that Jail was an artificial human.

I do recall the brains talking about how they made him what he is today, but that could mean anything from actual creation as an artificial human or corruption from an ordinary researcher to mad scientist.
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Old 2009-08-07, 18:19   Link #175
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't remember anything from the show specifically saying that Jail was an artificial human.

I do recall the brains talking about how they made him what he is today, but that could mean anything from actual creation as an artificial human or corruption from an ordinary researcher to mad scientist.
Check page 14 of Ch. 12 of the StrikerS manga--Jail specifically states that he's an artificial creation ("From the time that I was born in that tank..."). He even lampshades how the Brains tweaked his psyche.
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Old 2009-08-07, 18:26   Link #176
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Check page 14 of Ch. 12 of the StrikerS manga--Jail specifically states that he's an artificial creation ("From the time that I was born in that tank..."). He even lampshades how the Brains tweaked his psyche.
He's actually a tragic figure then. I genuinely feel a bit sorry for him.
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Old 2009-08-07, 18:29   Link #177
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This brings up a bit of an ethical concern for me. Is it really right to put Jail into what looks to me to be a maximum security lock-up for being who he was programmed by the Council to be?
He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.

*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
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Old 2009-08-07, 18:53   Link #178
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He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.

*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
So you're saying that they've given him chances at rehabilitation, but he's turned them down?
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Old 2009-08-08, 01:01   Link #179
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So you're saying that they've given him chances at rehabilitation, but he's turned them down?
Actually i don't think they did... he is too dangerous. But he would decline them anyway - with TSAB having mind reading to verify his seriousness at that.
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Old 2009-08-08, 01:42   Link #180
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To quote from StrikerS episode 20:

Quote:
"The genius you found, created and raised. With the knowledge of a lost world and infinite greed within him, the pride of Al Hazard.

Development Codename: Unlimited Desire *Jale seen with a manic grin* Jail Scaglietti.

The moment you created him and gave him power, your fate was sealed. No matter what chain you put around his neck, or what prison you put him in... A power you cannot master will bring about your destruction."
Looks like the good Jail went a bit out of control, which the brains didn't expect. Sorta like Hitler, people thought they could control him.
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