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Old 2009-08-07, 12:31   Link #2621
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
passive form
ichidan verb
-られる
見る⇒見られる
godan verb
-aれる
書く⇒書かれる
this ichidan verb is same possible verb.
so sometime when possible meaning,use that without ĒらĒ.
見られる⇒見れる
Okay I think I got it. So let me get this straight:

For godan verbs, the passive/potential/polite form involves changing the ending to the あ行 kana and adding れる, but if you just want it to mean potential, you can change the ending to the corresponding え行 kana and just add る.
For ichidan verbs, the passive/potential/polite form involves replacing the ending with られる but if you just want it to mean potential, you can replace the ending with れる.

Is that right?

Also, when using the られる form, as passive, I think I've seen this construction before... does に mark the agent? As in, say AはBに殺された would mean "A was killed by B," would it?
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Old 2009-08-07, 16:45   Link #2622
nikorai
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Raiga
Your explanation sounds very complicated.
In my textbook it was exlained that for ichidan verbs passive and potential forms correspond.
見れる is colloquial. In the textbook it was said that technically it's not grammatically correct.
Perhaps when suitable it's safer to use v+ことができる instead.

For godan verbs use 仮定形
(use -eru ending)
e.g. 言う>言える
話す>話せる
走る>走れる
etc.

As for the passive constructions, I noticed that it's very widely used in Japanese and much more often than in English. So, in many cases active voice in English is translated by passive in Japanese. Say, in English the sentence about killing someone would sound better with "B killed A".
For example,
(about a party) They'll kill me if I pass. (impersonal)
行かなかったら、殺されるってこと。

You can also notice that the word order is opposite of English. It's like everything's upside down.

Another example with directional verbs:
The teacher explained a new grammar rule to me.
(私は)先生に新しい文法規則を教えていただきました。

And you're right about the polite form. It works when you put verb in passive form using active voice.
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Old 2009-08-07, 18:31   Link #2623
mendokusa
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A:I love you。
■standard
AはBに好suきと言iいました。
A said to B "I love you"
◆passive
BはAに好きと言われました。
B was said by A "I love you"
like"-と言われています"without A and B,then A is a lot of people,B is nobady.
”男女平等danjobyoudouが当aたり前mae”と言われています。
who told sexual equality is natural.

◆potential
AはBに好きと言えます。
A can say to B "I love you"
for another meaning,often use "言うことができる"form.

◆honorific
A将軍shougunnがBに好きと言われた。(敬語)
General A say to B ”I love you”
subject is not myself but you.尊敬語sonnkeigo:言われた、おっしゃった
subject is myself,謙譲語kennjougo:申mouし上aげます。

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-08-08 at 20:40.
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Old 2009-08-07, 19:43   Link #2624
Raiga
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Okay, I think I get the られる now... the thing is I don't see the potential form, the form that 言える is in, anywhere on the conjugation charts (that is, verb form ending in -e [is that called the 已然形?] + ru). Although I do see "連用形+える" listed as "short potential;" that means it's the -i form of the ending + eru, right? Like ありえる.

Furthermore, does that form have an ichidan equivalent, or should I just use ことができる?

And one last thing about the られる form, the table says it's the "passive/honorific/potential" form, so it can also be used as a potential form, just like the える form?
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Old 2009-08-07, 21:04   Link #2625
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Okay, I think I get the られる now... the thing is I don't see the potential form, the form that 言える is in, anywhere on the conjugation charts (that is, verb form ending in -e [is that called the 已然形?] + ru). Although I do see "連用形+える" listed as "short potential;" that means it's the -i form of the ending + eru, right? Like ありえる.

Furthermore, does that form have an ichidan equivalent, or should I just use ことができる?

And one last thing about the られる form, the table says it's the "passive/honorific/potential" form, so it can also be used as a potential form, just like the える form?
Yeah Mendokusa gave you the 3 examples in his post, although used for honorific... don't remember that tbh...
(Probably was taught it at some point, but it doesn't command priority for the use of the 'rareru' forms afair)
Concerning Keigo, was just taught the basic teinei, kenjou and sonkei forms and worked from there...

The moment someone starts using terms such as ichidan and godan, my brain shuts down xD
So if i have some time tonight, I'll use mendousa's examples and write another set of examples for 'passive' and 'potential' forms for the thread, but in a weird... simpleton's guide which usually works for my brain rather than getting way too technical

As to how can you tell which grammatical meaning it has, it's all in the context as usual with this language.
(and the two particles 'ni' and 'ga' will often point out the difference)

Will try to roam around here later on and snag my notes/textbooks for ya...
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Old 2009-08-07, 22:37   Link #2626
mendokusa
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potential form like "-eru" change from old japanese to modern japanese
”連用形+得eる” become "仮定形kateikei(old已然形izennkei)+る".
but shimo itidan verb is same.
”食べ+る”
so use potential auxiliary verb"られる"and "れる".
”食べ+られる”
”られる” have 4 meaning.
potential,honorific,passive,voluntary

auxiliary verb is difficlut,too.



自動詞jidoushi&他動詞tadoushi
自動詞:object がjidoushi.
Aが消kiえる Bが開hiraく
他動詞:subject が object を tadoushi.
私がAを消keす  あなたがBを開aける

自動詞 focus A and B.
他動詞 focus who do that.

聞kiこえる、言iえる、見miえる(自動詞)
specific thingが-
遠tooくに海umiが見える。

聞かれる、言われる、見られる(他動詞)
notional thingが-
日本語nihonngoは難muzukaしいと言iわれる。

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-08-08 at 20:38.
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Old 2009-08-08, 08:43   Link #2627
mokopi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
Ē引き出しĒis a part of "たんす".drawer

一ichi段dann目meの引hiき出kiしが壊kowaれる。
break down the first drawer

AをBにしまう。
put A in B.

洗濯物を たんすの 引き出しに しまう
put the laundry in a drawer of wardrobe
Ah, wakarimashita

Arigatou, Mendokusa san~!
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Old 2009-08-17, 22:55   Link #2628
Tenken's Smile
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I have a question:
I was taught in class that "kun" is not used for girls.
But I saw "girl-kun" in some manga.
So when you call a girl "kun", what kind of attitude does that show??
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Old 2009-08-18, 03:15   Link #2629
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Ah man! I need practice! Who wants to be my Japanese Buddy? LOL!!!
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Old 2009-08-18, 06:38   Link #2630
mendokusa
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Quote:
I have a question:
I was taught in class that "kun" is not used for girls.
But I saw "girl-kun" in some manga.
So when you call a girl "kun", what kind of attitude does that show??
when boss call junior partner,often use "kun".
always chairman call member of the Diet "-kun".
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Old 2009-08-18, 07:23   Link #2631
Dreamtale
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Or sensei often calls female students -kun
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Old 2009-08-18, 07:39   Link #2632
mendokusa
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actually,
Some call female " kun ",Other call female " san ".
on business,often call people at office " kun ".
on school or college,too
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Old 2009-08-18, 12:36   Link #2633
Tenken's Smile
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So when you call a woman "kun", it's lower than "san"?
Does it also mean that you consider her below you?
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Old 2009-08-18, 20:17   Link #2634
Etienne
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Videos to learn Japanese.

A friend inspired me to pursue my childhood dream to learn Japanese.

I left for Tokyo to practice for a few months and came back to Canada where Iím still studying.

Donít get me wrong, Iím still far from being fluent but Iíve been working on those videos to explain my understanding of Japanese.

Iím putting this here to get some comments and feedback so that I can improve my videos and share my knowledge about this language with other people.

I think it might be too much grounded in theory so Iím thinking of ways of making things more interesting like using more drawings and the like.

Hope this is hopeful for you anime/manga fans who would also like to learn Japanese.

Introduction to Kanji:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UUivGDl5os

Remembering the Kanji
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJO93UZRj8M

Japanese verb groups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HASMSYMsq7g

Hiragana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJWDTUnn33Y

Kanji II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIXuX-AyCbc

Katakana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPkEvkD1TBE

Writing in Japanese on your computer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlvLgFyZj0E

Kanji III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EiQKZZ72ag

Kanji IV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDg7QzDkkpU

Conjugating verbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9sibjZOzPA

Past tense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ67Xsf1gAA
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Old 2009-08-18, 22:57   Link #2635
mendokusa
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not lower.
male and female is equality,
so often boss call both male and female same "san" or "kun".
on fellow worker,often male is "kun",female is "kun".
but when call someone,each of people is different.
on school,male is "kun",female is "chan" or "san"
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Old 2009-08-19, 13:08   Link #2636
Tenken's Smile
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I'm still intrigued by this. Would you mind helping me again?
When you call a woman "kun", what level of respect does it show?
Is it less formal than "san"?
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Old 2009-08-19, 16:29   Link #2637
Haladflire65
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I've lived in Japan and I've never heard anyone calling a female 'kun'. Ever.

'Kun' is used for usually younger boys. You can call a male younger than you 'kun', basically. Kids in elementary school call each other 'hayato-kun', 'shougo-kun', etc, etc. Boys only, of course.

While you can call both males and females 'san', 'kun' is only used for males. 'chan' is usually used for girls but boys are often called that, too.
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Old 2009-08-19, 17:19   Link #2638
Heturi
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Konnichiwa! I'm new here and just wanted to say I'm teaching myself Nihongo and have found a lot of great things here!
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Old 2009-08-20, 05:53   Link #2639
mendokusa
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level of respect
"dono"="sama">"kun"="san"="chan">nothing
when serious situation such a business,call both male and female same "kun"or "san".
then there is no difference between "kun" and "san".
like "boku"or "watashi",
female call herself "watashi"or"boku",and male call himself "watashi" ,"boku"or"ore".
etc
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Old 2009-08-20, 18:14   Link #2640
Heturi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
level of respect
"dono"="sama">"kun"="san"="chan">nothing
when serious situation such a business,call both male and female same "kun"or "san".
then there is no difference between "kun" and "san".
like "boku"or "watashi",
female call herself "watashi"or"boku",and male call himself "watashi" ,"boku"or"ore".
etc
One thing I found interesting was, in my studies I found boku to be a male only term yet in music, most females use boku more often and males use ore more often. I've only come accross this in music... anyone know why or can anyone shed some light on this?
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