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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 162 45.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 8.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 8.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 42 11.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 15 4.20%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 15 4.20%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 1.96%
3 out of 10 : Bad 5 1.40%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 10 2.80%
1 out of 10 : Painful 40 11.20%
Voters: 357. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-09, 18:38   Link #841
Akka
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Originally Posted by zriL View Post
I didn't feel that the characters were stupid at any time of this arc.
They are trapped in a time loop. They have someone who is fully aware of all the previous iteration. Nobody asks her about information, nobody tries to use her knowledge.
If that's not suspension-of-disbelief-breaking stupidity, I don't know what it is.
There is also the "OMG she's going out of the café, I can't even ask her if she's sure she's done all what she wants". That's the very first thing I thought about, and if I could manage it in a split second, I'm pretty sure that any person with even a two-digits QI could manage to do it during the whole next day Kyon spend worrying about the loop but not even thinking to call Haruhi.

And please, no absurd rationalization "hey, they may ask but it's not shown on-screen". It's a central plot point, if it was actually done, it should have been on-screen.
Quote:
You must notice that they don't remember the past iterations.
Yuki does. Ask her. I'm pretty sure that's the first thing any five-year old child would think about.
Quote:
Besides, Kyon was the only one who was supposed to do something. Yuki have to observe, Mikuru is lost because she can't receive orders anymore and Koizumi seems to be enjoying the loop.
So I don't understand people saying they are losing on purpose. Koizumi may be, but he would be the only one.
Because being stupid on this scale is the same as losing on purpose. It's simply not believable.
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Originally Posted by mokuseimaru View Post
However, breaking General Relativity is a bit different than breaking the Square Cube Law. And considering that Haruhi nearly destroyed the Earth on a number of occasions, if she has the potential to control the entire universe, the DITE might eventually consider the risks she poses to it's survival to outweigh her potential for unwrapping the mystery of "auto-evolution" and decide to get rid of her.
The point is, they do not understand nor know how Haruhi is working. As such, the DITE (funny, if you only take the initials, it should be DIE ) is probably very cautious with interfering in any way, and will probably not try to kill her - it could means the end of the whole universe after all.
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Old 2009-08-09, 19:02   Link #842
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They did ask Yuki. Having her retell what they did and did not do during all these loops won't help them since she doesn't know what Haruhi wants. It just gives them a bigger headache than they already have.

As for being stupid. It would only be stupid if there was an actual threat to their lives. There isn't. Only Yuki remembers everything and she's "observing" as programmed. Everyone else is more or less just doing it for the first time again...aside from the moments things seem familiar. Itsuki is a Yes Man, If this is Haruhi's will then he's all for it. Of course he's not going to question Haruhi. Mikuru's a mess without orders from the future and would be unwilling to take an action for fear of changing the timeline. Only Kyon has any ability to effect the situation, and frankly, he's at a loss for what to do. They find out they are in a time loop about a week into the loop because of Mikuru's inability to contact the future. That means they have a week at best to come up with something. The problem is Haruhi has the week full of activities and the main thought is that they need to finish everything in order for Haruhi to be satified. By August 30th, they are worn out and likely mentally exhausted from all the stuff they did (the scene from the first episode of them all sleeping on the train would indicate this to be true). When Haruhi crosses off the last thing and is about to leave, Kyon guesses she's not satified (or else Yuki told them about this part, but that would be the last of her knowledge since she'd not have contact with anyone on the 31st), but doesn't know what to do. He could simply call out to her ask what else she wants. She'd say she's fine and leave...nothing accomplished. In fact Kyon might even think that would cause her to make the loop in the first place. Increasing her doubt that she finished everything, but not knowing what it is she was missing out on, and thus going back again to try to find what is missing.

For it is entirely possible that Haruhi doesn't know what she was missing, just that she felt like there was something left to do in the summer, but couldn't put her mind to it. Sort of like that feeling you get when you go someplace, do a lot of things, and at the end before you go home, you wonder if there was something more to do, even though you think you did everything. That feeling may be exactly what is causing Haruhi's loop. That Kyon finally came up with homework (the last thing anyone would think of really) as a solution is a 1 in a million answer it seems. That much was enough to keep her mind off of whatever it was that caused the loops...or it was exactly the homework that caused the loop in the first place...we don't know for sure.

As far as I can tell, none of the characters acted stupid or out of character within any of the single episodes.

Remember, to them it is as if each loop were the first loop...if Mikuru doesn't try to contact the future, they wouldn't know they are even in a time loop. Just that some things would seem familar. The only reason they know how many loops is because Yuki tell them so. Otherwise there is no reason to break the loop. No dire thing they must avoid. Just more summer activites with friends.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-08-09 at 19:13.
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Old 2009-08-09, 19:36   Link #843
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is the distinct possibility that they can't "get rid of her". How do you take out someone that can change the entire universe just because she's losing a baseball game or reset all time because she's unfulfilled or lonely on her last day of summer?
Haruhi has a physical body; not to mention that she's unaware of her powers, and would probably have a hard time controlling them even if she was. So, I think a bullet to the brain would probably kill her.

I don't think it's ever made clear what "auto-evolution" means, except that Haruhi is the key to it. I think it's more of a matter of the DITE changing it's perception of the universe than in its ability to manipulate "data". But that's just a guess.
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Old 2009-08-09, 19:47   Link #844
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Originally Posted by mokuseimaru View Post
Haruhi has a physical body; not to mention that she's unaware of her powers, and would probably have a hard time controlling them even if she was. So, I think a bullet to the brain would probably kill her.
She Contingency'd a True Resurrection.

Pretty sure that even if something tried to kill her, it couldn't. Space would warp so that she'd avoid death.

What Haruhi wants, she gets. Who wants to die?
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Old 2009-08-09, 19:50   Link #845
Heminga13
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The characters were acting according to Tanigawa's vision of them. That's basically how I feel on that.

Spoiler for Yuki (spoiler tag to save space):
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Old 2009-08-09, 19:52   Link #846
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who wants to die?
... People with suicidal tendencies?
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Old 2009-08-09, 20:04   Link #847
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
She Contingency'd a True Resurrection.

Pretty sure that even if something tried to kill her, it couldn't. Space would warp so that she'd avoid death.

What Haruhi wants, she gets. Who wants to die?

On another board, I debated The Punisher (Frank Castle - Marvel comics) vs. Haruhi. Basically, Frank caught wind of Haruhi's crimes of blackmail, extortion, sexual harassment and trespassing, and decided that Haruhi needed to be taken out.

It made for a very interesting thread, and some good back-and-forth. The eventual consensus was that Frank wouldn't get the job done... but it would be due to the SOS Brigade as a whole simply being too much for him to get by, not just Haruhi alone.

But that was just the consensus - there were a lot of different opinions. Frank getting thrown in jail for trumped up charges of pedophilia was one of the funnier ones.
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Old 2009-08-09, 20:27   Link #848
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Frank getting thrown in jail for trumped up charges of pedophilia was one of the funnier ones.
Whoever came up with that one is awesome.
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:04   Link #849
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Originally Posted by Heminga13 View Post
The characters were acting according to Tanigawa's vision of them. That's basically how I feel on that.
Tanigawa had the characters act when they became aware of the problem.

They didn't in the anime. We saw them sit around and do nothing again and again and again and again and again and again. I guess by a strictly litteral interpretation and a bit of bending you can say it's true.

But no, Tanigawa's vision did not include an entire novel repeating the same 30 pages.

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Originally Posted by Heminga13 View Post
Snipped lengty justification for Yuki's inaction.
It does make sense and explains why she wasn't proactive in stopping the time loop. It's not really my problem.

She was still perfectly willing to share information if they would only ask, complete with very detailed statistics. In fact she told them they were in a time loop a couple hundred times, there's absolutely nothing in the anime to demonstrate she wasn't willing to transmit a message to their future selves.

Have they tried something? Anything?
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:26   Link #850
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Originally Posted by Ninjacat View Post
Tanigawa had the characters act when they became aware of the problem.

They didn't in the anime. We saw them sit around and do nothing again and again and again and again and again and again. I guess by a strictly litteral interpretation and a bit of bending you can say it's true.

But no, Tanigawa's vision did not include an entire novel repeating the same 30 pages.

It does make sense and explains why she wasn't proactive in stopping the time loop. It's not really my problem.

She was still perfectly willing to share information if they would only ask, complete with very detailed statistics. In fact she told them they were in a time loop a couple hundred times, there's absolutely nothing in the anime to demonstrate she wasn't willing to transmit a message to their future selves.

Have they tried something? Anything?
For the first part, Tanigawa is given a title as part of TMoHS (2009) aside from 'original creator' (that being a development collaborator). I'm pretty sure he had a some input into how he felt Endless Eight should be done.

The second part hinges on whether you think DITE ordered Yuki to not do anything to help them or not. If they did, Yuki would have been forced to deny their request anyway. I think Yuki's "My duty is to observe." line is meant to convey this fact, in that Yuki would like to do something other than what she already is but can't because it'd be going against the will of DITE. I think Kyon realizes this and that's why he doesn't say anything more. Kyon wouldn't want to have Yuki get Ryoko'd, right?
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:30   Link #851
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... poor, poor Asakura... sure, she wanted to kill Kyon, but is that really such a bad thing?
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:33   Link #852
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Originally Posted by mokuseimaru View Post
Haruhi has a physical body; not to mention that she's unaware of her powers, and would probably have a hard time controlling them even if she was. So, I think a bullet to the brain would probably kill her.
True, but would that actually be safer? Considering that there is nothing in the human body which could ever possibly facilitate the kind of things Haruhi has done, even if you smashed Haruhi's body to atoms, the "power" would still be at large.
Spoiler:


Considering how little they know about the Nature of the power involved, I doubt any at the Agency would consider eliminating Haruhi unless it looked like she was going to destroy reality.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2009-08-09 at 22:03.
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:43   Link #853
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Originally Posted by mokuseimaru View Post
Haruhi has a physical body; not to mention that she's unaware of her powers, and would probably have a hard time controlling them even if she was. So, I think a bullet to the brain would probably kill her.
That could work... then we find out that she heals like Deadpool...

*brrrrr* Deadpool with powers like Haruhi's... makes that What If? story of the Impossible Man getting the Infinity Gauntlet seem tame by comparison...
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:45   Link #854
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Why do we keep getting on the subject of trying to kill Haruhi? She isn't that bad, y'know.

*e*
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*brrrrr* Deadpool with powers like Haruhi's... makes that What If? story of the Impossible Man getting the Infinity Gauntlet seem tame by comparison...
... thanks... now I'm scared again
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:50   Link #855
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Roger Rambo, spoilers there dude.

I'm going along with the idea that if you can kill Haruhi without her knowing, she will probably die. Again, it is only Koizumi's faction that regards her as God; the other two factions don't think that highly of her.
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:52   Link #856
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Originally Posted by Heminga13 View Post
For the first part, Tanigawa is given a title as part of TMoHS (2009) aside from 'original creator' (that being a development collaborator). I'm pretty sure he had a some input into how he felt Endless Eight should be done.
It's pretty hard to know how much imput he really had. "Developement collaborator" is an awfully vague title. He could get that from something as minor as attending a few reunions a year before actual production.

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Originally Posted by Heminga13 View Post
The second part hinges on whether you think DITE ordered Yuki to not do anything to help them or not. If they did, Yuki would have been forced to deny their request anyway. I think Yuki's "My duty is to observe." line is meant to convey this fact, in that Yuki would like to do something other than what she already is but can't because it'd be going against the will of DITE. I think Kyon realizes this and that's why he doesn't say anything more. Kyon wouldn't want to have Yuki get Ryoko'd, right?
He seemed perfectly fine to let her rot for five centuries.

Yuki's giving them all the info as soon as they ask. Something even Mikuru isn't allowed to do. That's not even mentioning Kyon had no problem asking Yuki how much wiggle room she has to help them, even if it's to tell her to forget about it afterwards. Remember that baseball game?

Kyon just didn't try.

Between that painfully convoluted justification and the much more simple "idiot ball" explanation, I'd go with the second considering that very little of your justification is explained in the show outside of a single line. Lazy writing and anime aren't exactly strangers you know.
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Old 2009-08-09, 21:55   Link #857
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If the point of the arc was to be boring, then it's a completely stupid idea to begin with. You can rationalize it however you want, the very concept of "making a boring entertainment" is absurd by itself (especially for such a long period).

Much more interesting and keeping the idea is to give a feeling of despair and captitivity, which doesn't imply boredom. Seeing them actually TRYING but failing would keep the feeling of "we can't escape", but would at least make the show worthy of being watched.
I have to agree and say that Ithekro's idea definitely seems like barking up the wrong tree. Not only that, but the very idea of it being boring as the point doesn't register with me in the slightest. The entire point of entertainment and even art is to pique the interest of the person viewing it. If it were the purpose then it also would do nothing for the shows credibility. If one wanted to simulate boredom then there are many way to go about doing it where they wouldn't even have to watch the show.

I see no real point in making excuses for the show or it's producers as an element of defence for one's enjoyment of it. There's no real way to be objective about this as I think some have already pointed out. I think it's enough to just describe what we took from the arc good or bad and be confident enough in that as an explanation for it's existence. It should be about taking back the right to subjective opinion instead of giving it to the production side and getting caught up in what ifs and why nots.
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Old 2009-08-09, 22:00   Link #858
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Originally Posted by aegisofrime View Post
Again, it is only Koizumi's faction that regards her as God; the other two factions don't think that highly of her.
Actually, the only faction that doesn't seem to hold Haruhi in any high regard is Mikuru's. The Data-whatever certainly considers her a very important individual, even if it is just for her powers.

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Originally Posted by Ninjacat View Post
Between that painfully convoluted justification and the much more simple "idiot ball" explanation, I'd go with the second considering that very little of your justification is explained in the show outside of a single line. Lazy writing and anime aren't exactly strangers you know.
And yet, Tanigawa didn't have them try and put any backup plans into motion, so it's still not entirely KyoAni's fault...
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Old 2009-08-09, 22:03   Link #859
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
That could work... then we find out that she heals like Deadpool...
I doubt Haruhi's defense mechanisms would appear in such a wildly overt and super natural manner. In her gut she knows super natural things like that don't happen.

Like an off duty SAT officer just happening to be close enough to Haruhi when they try to kill her to foil the attempt...

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Roger Rambo, spoilers there dude.
Whoops, my bad. Fixed.
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Old 2009-08-09, 22:04   Link #860
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I see no real point in making excuses for the show or it's producers as an element of defence for one's enjoyment of it. There's no real way to be objective about this as I think some have already pointed out. I think it's enough to just describe what we took from the arc good or bad and be confident enough in that as an explanation for it's existence. It should be about taking back the right to subjective opinion instead of giving it to the production side and getting caught up in what ifs and why nots.
...You're right, I've been a big ball of negativeness haven't I?

I think I made it abundantly clear that I found EE distatefull and a waste of time, and I got a bit lost in explaining why. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, liking that arc isn't badwrongfun.

I think I'll just bow out of that forum for now, I made my point already and I have nothing to add. Have fun guys!
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