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View Poll Results: Vote for your favorite Nanoha StrikerS character
Fate T. Harlaown 221 64.43%
Nanoha Takamachi 163 47.52%
Hayate Yagami 91 26.53%
Signum 100 29.15%
Vita 93 27.11%
Reinforce Zwei 76 22.16%
Lutecia Alpino 32 9.33%
Jail Scaglietti 18 5.25%
Erio Mondial 41 11.95%
Caro Ru Lushe 44 12.83%
Teana Lanster 85 24.78%
Subaru Nakajima 87 25.36%
Ginga Nakajima 53 15.45%
Vivio 84 24.49%
Other 46 13.41%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 343. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-08, 05:41   Link #181
arkhangelsk
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He is locked not because of that. But because he LIKES it that way. Numbers were also programmed - but half of them decided to change path. And did. Bad upbringing is not a reason to leave dangerous* person to roam free.

*Dangerous in "will do" department, not "power" one. Full-power Hayate as my neighbor is ok. Depowered Jail on wheelchair, without henchmen and without funding is not.
To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?

As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.

That's the theoretical argument of rehabiliative justice, which the TSAB does use generously. However, most people assume we actually have free will despite our upbringing and genetics (our programming). If you assume humans actually have free will, then Scarlietti MUST be responsible for what he's doing, despite his programming or whatever.

There is of course, also the pragmatic "national security" argument
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Old 2009-08-08, 08:08   Link #182
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
To be fair, Jail did have some impressive combat capabilities himself, remember?

As for the whole "Jail is programmed" argument, well maybe, but in that case you can't really punish anyone, since everyone's actions can be expressed as being ruled by his "programming" (a mix of nature genetics and nurture environment) and by the time he actually commits his crime he is arguably already "programmed" to do so.
Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.

However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.
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Old 2009-08-08, 09:43   Link #183
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Jail is kept in... well, jail... not due to guilt or innocence, but simply because they just don't know what he'd do if he was loose.

Jail may not be completely responsible for his own actions as he was nothing but a pawn of the brains, but that hardly makes him any less dangerous or fucking scary.

Plus even though the brains created him, they didn't seem to restrict his free will at all, considering how he instructed Due to kill them--not to mention his entire plan was aimed squarely at destabilizing and subjugating the Midchildan TSAB system.

Looking at things that way... Jail's actions are his own responsibility. He isn't just a puppet of the late but not lamented TSAB High Council--much of his actions were committed of his own volition.

He's insane, definitely. Goes with the whole Mad Scientist territory. But insanity doesn't automatically equal innocence, even though a lot of liberal defense attorneys seem to think it does.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:50   Link #184
Keroko
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Genuinely nice try, but I disagree. Normal human genetics being passed down through typical procreation never gives someone "unlimited desire". Something that extreme has to be artificially programmed into a person's genes, and greatly undermines their ability to self-restrain themselves. It's like a person being born alcoholic due to their mother drinking heavily while she carries the child to term - under these unique and extreme circumstances, it's not really fair, in my mind, to hold a person entirely responsible for their actions.

However, if they can't somehow fix Jail's programming, I can understand why he's not allowed to go free.
Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
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Old 2009-08-10, 15:53   Link #185
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Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
Thanks for the clarification. I have less problem with the treatment of Jail now because of it.
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Old 2009-08-10, 17:54   Link #186
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Unlimited Desire was a codename for Jail, nothing like that was ever programmed into him. His 'greed' was simply something that was shared among many Al Hazardians (after all, the greed for knowledge and power is what lead to their destruction). In other words, it was no fault of the brains, and thereby no excuse.
Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)
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Old 2009-08-10, 18:30   Link #187
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Hmm... Doesn't chapter 12 of the manga have Jail mentioning that his desire "could have been something moulded into me"? I think it's more of a 'maybe' than a definite 'no'. (The name of "Unlimited Desire" does imply that one of the things he was supposed to have is massive ambition)
Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.

Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.
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Old 2009-08-10, 18:31   Link #188
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It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant.
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Old 2009-08-10, 18:33   Link #189
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It is a location. I wasn't really clear on what I meant.
Yeah, I figured that when I saw your clarification, so I ended up deleting my post since it was unneeded. Sorry.
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Old 2009-08-10, 18:51   Link #190
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Considering that dream involved the destruction of the TSAB and the death, even if that were a 'yes' we know that this is not a blame on the part of the TSAB. Supporting the opposite though, is Due, who mentions the greed in relation to Al Hazard.

Which of course opens the possibility that the 'greed' was molded into Jail's original by scientists of Al Hazard itself, and that this 'program' was merely copied along with the rest of Jail. Though this is relying on far to many maybe's.
I was thinking something more like the TSAB moulding the desire of pursuing scientific research to its limits into him, with that leading to his dream for the destruction of the TSAB. You know, unforeseen cause and effect thing due to the TSAB high council underestimating the ambition and pride of someone given the knowledge of Al Hazard/Alhazred/'whatever its official english name is'. >>

Which, hmm, is probably what you just said <<
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Old 2009-08-11, 04:07   Link #191
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Can you cut TSAB part? Brains =/= TSAB.
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Old 2009-08-11, 04:19   Link #192
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Uh... the brains are the Administration's High Council... why would they be cut out? They don't just control Midchilda's government.
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Old 2009-08-11, 04:31   Link #193
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Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.
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Old 2009-08-11, 04:57   Link #194
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Mostly because their acts concerning Jail were done without the rest of the Bureau's knowledge, much less consent. Saying that the TSAB was responsible for Jail would be like saying the TSAB was planning to freeze Hayate.
Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl.
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:07   Link #195
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The Administration as a whole isn't corrupt, but Gil Graham, Regius Gaiz and the High Council show that individuals within the Administration can and will be corrupt.

Just like any other government in the history of forever.
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:08   Link #196
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Well if all else failed, they were certainly gonna ice the poor girl.
If all else failed Hayate would ice herself.
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:13   Link #197
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According to Chrono that wouldn't have worked anyway. Sealing it would just leave it conveniently somewhere another powerful shady character could find it.
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:14   Link #198
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Actually, my statement was a euphemism for the TSAB killing Hayate if everything else failed. Guess it was lost on some of y'all. =X
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:27   Link #199
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Don't forget the 100 million or so Japanese in the Arc radius!
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Old 2009-08-11, 05:29   Link #200
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Were they? Last I checked, nobody raised any objection to letting Nanoha fight her. They didn't pull her back and say 'let's Arc her while we can!' but let the girl fight. They were even willing to gamble everything on a plan that could just as easily have doomed them all as it could have saved them.

Heck, icing the master was never even part of the plan. Arresting the master, yes. Icing the master, no.
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