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Old 2009-08-10, 10:14   Link #2541
Slash_Emperor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I wouldn't mention Teresa if not for the: "Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa". That's gibberish (sorry I used this word but I'm Teresa's fan :P). I wasn't interested in Priscilla vs. Rafaela debate, I bugged in only because I saw "Priscilla had potential to surpass Teresa" sentence. My posts have nothing to do with your quarrel with Shiek except for quoted sentences.
Actually, Priscilla may well have had the potential to surpass Teresa. Teresa herself acknowledged that possibility. And when she Awakened, even without reaching that potential, she was so strong she made the Abyssal Ones look like trash. (and epic lulz @ the ones who think that she "unlocked" her potetial when she Awakened or some thing like that)

Irene said that Priscilla might grow to become stronger than Teresa. The Organization said it. Teresa herself said it. If Yagi didn't want us to believe it, he wouldn't have so many credible sources state it with such confidence. Besides, it's not really that ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
As for the first death squad, there were five warriors:

Lol, you were talking about the foddersquad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
And it's not a stretch to say that Teresa had to control her strength. Try to kill a mosquito sitting on a balloon without breaking the balloon.
Hmm, that is a ridiculously flawed statement. The damage Teresa can deal is limited by what her sword can do. If she strikes an enemy at a non-lethal spot, no matter how much power she uses the injury will still be non-lethal. That doesn't take effort - especially against Claymores, who can regenerate much easier than humans, it just needs a bare minimum of attention to avoid accidentally striking a deathblow. With Teresa's skill, that's actually easy, not hard. Don't think of it in "hit points" and "damage" terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Teresa didn't see Priscilla release youki then, so what? She sparred with her enough time and was about to strike the final blow, Priscilla's death was inevitable and Teresa must have known that when she said those words.
Hmm, you're wrong. Priscilla had insane amounts of Yoki. Sure, they weren't as insane as Teresa's. But Teresa didn't know that. She "sensed" her potential, which was huge. But she didn't know how much Yoki she could currently use, which was also huge, just not big enough to thwart Teresa. That COULD justify Teresa's statement. But as I said JUST afterwards, it's not really an issue here because there is a much more logical interpretation to use. You are arguing against points that I refute myself because they aren't really relevant, AND misinterpreting those points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
As for the ambiguous statement, I'm not that good in English and maybe it means just that but IMO it would make more sense if Teresa said: "If I don't beat her now I may not have such good chance next time we meet" or sth like that if she meant that she doesn't know whether she's stronger than her or not. Are you saying that it's definite these words can't be interpreted the way I presented it?
Of course they can. The manga itself picks the correct interpretation for us though, by having Teresa overkill Priscilla. If Priscilla "could" have killed Teresa in that battle, it wouldn't be so one-sided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Let's see. You've written that: "Awakening your arm against Teresa is useless because she can predict your moves that much easier" and the link I provided directs to arguments that state otherwise. That's funny how you came to a conclusion I was talking about Irene's statement that her quicksword was better than Teresa's skill, I never mentioned it neither in point #3 of my old post (have you checked it?) nor at my today post. My point was (and I thought it was obvious) that youki prediction was useless against quicksword.
And that's wrong. The Quicksword uses the sword arm's Awakening. Awakening = Yoki release. Irene doesn't have that much Yoki to make it unreadable, and it's fully concentrated, so the problems Teresa had with half-Awakened Priscilla are irrelevant. We know that Yoki precognition can cover a huge gulf in speed, enabling Clare to fight on par with single-digits before she even had Irene's arm. If the speed is much closer, such as that of Teresa's and Irene's Awakened arm, the precognition can definitely cover it.

If you believe Yoki precognition is useless against the Quicksword, you're mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I'm not sure if it was that obvious. Until I mentioned it no one even considered this (AFAIK). All claymores have hightened senses and better reflexes than normal humans do. Experienced warriors don't have to think to make a block or deflect an attack. Preemptive youki sensing ability however requires to analyze every attack to a miniscule level. While it can be done in certain cases (as I mentioned, sneak attacks or projectile attacks are vulnerable to such ability) when you face a strong opponent it would be too difficult to do, not because your body was too slow but because your brain and/or motion sensing was.
Clare outmatching the Awakened Being with her senses defeats all your arguments. Without superhuman lightning-fast reflexes to exploit the advantage her senses gave her, Clare would've been obliterated in a matter of seconds. The speed difference was too huge to suggest otherwise, not to mention that even if your body improves, you still need much faster thought process to analyze and avoid attacks from a faster opponent. In a purely hypothetical example, if Clare was facing Miria, and Teresa was facing a - supposedly - maximum potential Priscilla that was using her Yoki. Let's say Clare's base speed is 5 (just a random number, don't shoot), and Miria's is 60, and Teresa's base speed is 300, and Priscilla's is 320. Though the speed difference between Teresa and Priscilla is minimal compared to that between Miria and Clare, Teresa would still need faster reflexes than Clare to respond to the motions she read from Priscilla. That's why Clamores must have superhuman reflexes and analytical capacity as far as battle is concerned. Otherwise nothing makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
If Claymores thought that much faster in battle as you're saying, what would stop them from super-thinking in other situations? They could resolve problems quicker and it would be certain that geniuses would emerge and threaten MiB position. Even if for other matters some other parts of brain would be responsible it would be too good of a coincidence that youki increased only the ones needed for battle purposes.
Since Yoki comes from the Yoma who are by nature simply predators who only know how to kill and feed, increasing only battle prowess is not a coincidence, it's a logical consequence. Also, Claymores are never taught enough to do anything else other than fight. No matter how fast you can think, you can't resolve problems you are not equipped to handle. And speed of thought process is different than quality. A person that can multiply 4314123 x 324334 in a matter of seconds isn't neccessarily a great mathematician, only someone who can calculate fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
As for Clare, she couldn't control her speed not because her thought process was too slow (it was stupid example on your part) but because her body wasn't prepared for it (also because of dynamic friction, inertia and other things). It sufficed that she awakened her legs and she could control it better.
No, no it wasn't. What is required to stop motion are the legs themselves, which were fully Awakened thus fully equipped to stop it. Clare simply didn't have the mental capacity to match her speed and control her movements. When she increased her control, she managed to tame her berserker speed. This has nothing to do with her body, just her mind 'catching up' to her insane physical capacity.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:07   Link #2542
SagaraSouske
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A lot of what Slash said makes sense, Claymores definitely have to possess much faster thought process then most humans, which are demonstrated in their battle reflexes. Part of it simply comes from being a hybrid that contains the potential the ABs possess and part of it comes from battle experiences they rack up. Youki is the source of power of all of claymore and AB’s abilities. Every special technique and ability they perform is laced within youki usage and control or that of youki sensing. When one can utilize larger amounts of youki and have better control over them and be able to improve youki sensing skills, one generally becomes stronger – as we evidently see in Clare’s growth. Training and combat experiences allow claymores to improve their youki usage, control and sensing abilities and thus Ritful was willing to wait for the claymores to become stronger before she force them to awaken.

@Slash, I don’t see why there would be epic lol over Priscilla releasing all of her potential when she awakened. Rubel said so when he talked to Clare about it and one of her trait listed in the databook is explosive growth. Teresa, Irene and Org all commented on Priscilla’s high untapped potential. With the difference between Priscilla before and after she fully awakened, it only supports that this notion is probably correct. Most claymores needs to constantly train and battle to improve, she was an experiment that was made to improve much faster then most claymores with her special trait. It is not really a stretch to say she was able to release her potential through awakening.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:45   Link #2543
Arturro
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Please don't mistake reflexes with speed of thinking. Cobras and humans muscle are simmilar, humans (most of them ) thinks much faster than any cobra, but cobras react faster than humans. Cobras do not think how to react, they react as fast as they spot something. Humans do think (more or less) before they act. Cobras reflexes are better than average human, cause they doesn't think, just react. Martial artist are training to react without thinking. Thinking, analysing, recognizing slowers ones reactions.
The same rule apply to blur caused by bandit falcon sword. Humans eyes should be good enought to spot it - his sword shouldn't be faster than a whip. Humans brains were just to slow to recognize what it was. Trained warrior is able to defend himself from whip attack - he doesn't try to analyse it, he just react to any incoming fast object, and according to his training parry it or dodge. He doesn't think if he should parry or if he should dodge, he just react as he was trained.
Claymores doesn't think faster than humans, so far only Miria and Galatea have shown above average inteligence. Claymores are trained to react instantly, without thinking. Probably their muscles and senses are enchanted, but main reason of their speed is training. As fight in Pieta has shown in critical situations Clare prooved is better than Miria, cause Miria was slowed by her thinking, where Clares reaction saves them.
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Old 2009-08-10, 18:26   Link #2544
SagaraSouske
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Martial arts are not trained to react without thinking, they are trained to reduce the time it takes to recognize the move and come up with the proper response in a fraction of the time a normal human does. There are certain basics ingrained in muscle memory in terms of repeatedly using the same move to counter specifc moves. But on a higher level, for a martial artist to improve beyond basic response and forms, they have to learn to recognize the attack and know how to deal with them. Some of that is learned from the form they are trained in, and more of that are from experience.

A good description of how a martial art master respond to an attack is as if time slowed down for him and he is able to perceive clearly the attack in slow motion and produce an counter, while to the observer both sides are moving fast. Since time doesn't really slow down, then it is his ability to see and interpret the information he saw and make a decision on what to do about it, is greatly above a normal human - thus basically think or process information faster.

Your Cobra example is prob correct comparing Cobra to a normal human, as most average humans do not have martial arts training and just 'react' rather then think and then act because they lack the training to process information and form coherent thought in that time frame. People with better athletic abilities generally have better reaction time then those with average athletic abilities. But for martial arts practitioner, you are trained to analyze the incoming attack, produce a move to defend or counter it and act on it in the same time a normal human 'reacts'.

Claymores are martial artists with super human abilities. Thus in order to control their own super human speed and power as well as perceive their enemy's super human speed, they will need to think faster then human martial arts masters.

Also thinking fast has nothing to do with intelligence.
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Old 2009-08-11, 03:46   Link #2545
Slash_Emperor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
@Slash, I don’t see why there would be epic lol over Priscilla releasing all of her potential when she awakened. Rubel said so when he talked to Clare about it and one of her trait listed in the databook is explosive growth. Teresa, Irene and Org all commented on Priscilla’s high untapped potential. With the difference between Priscilla before and after she fully awakened, it only supports that this notion is probably correct. Most claymores needs to constantly train and battle to improve, she was an experiment that was made to improve much faster then most claymores with her special trait. It is not really a stretch to say she was able to release her potential through awakening.
In the translations I've read, all it was said was that Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa, and that when she Awakened, it was as if that potential was released. All this means to me is that Awakened Priscilla =/= hybrid Priscilla (maximum potential reached). But even if there's a different more accurate translation that states this as a definite point, I still wouldn't change my mind, considering the source. If Priscilla reached her potential and then Awakened, she'd be much stronger. That makes much more sense than some strange notion that Awakening, the process of releasing all your Yoki at once, can unlock your potential to become stronger. Sure, there might be people who interpret it that way, but for me it's a no-no.
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Old 2009-08-11, 04:36   Link #2546
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor View Post
Actually, Priscilla may well have had the potential to surpass Teresa. Teresa herself acknowledged that possibility. And when she Awakened, even without reaching that potential, she was so strong she made the Abyssal Ones look like trash. (and epic lulz @ the ones who think that she "unlocked" her potetial when she Awakened or some thing like that)(...)
Actually no (OK, the probability of such thing is not zero but IMO it's close to it). Teresa didn't acknowledge that Priscilla may have the potential to surpass her. All she said was that she may not defeat Priscilla. That's a BIG difference (she didn't even say that she might be defeated by her, only that she might not win and certainly she didn't think Priscilla had the potential to surpass her). Ultimately Teresa was defeated by Priscilla but she basically handed her own head to her. You could kill even the strongest man if you stabbed him in the back or if he didn't fight back.
And "epic lulz" at you since you think that Priscilla didn't unlock her potential when she awakened. On what base are you saying that? The moment we've seen sarcastic monster, she released her latent abilities. She wouldn't be able to have more youki, she could only learn how to use her strength and unique body to the fullest, just like it is with other AB.

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Irene said that Priscilla might grow to become stronger than Teresa. The Organization said it. Teresa herself said it. If Yagi didn't want us to believe it, he wouldn't have so many credible sources state it with such confidence. Besides, it's not really that ridiculous.
Discussing with you is difficult since you don't want to read my earlier points and I have to repeat myself (note that not everything below relates to what you said. I'm too lazy to rewrite it).
Spoiler for long post:
In short, Irene was just guessing when she stated that Priscilla could surpass Teresa and the Organization couldn't know a thing about Teresa's or Priscilla's true power. As for Teresa herself, everything indicates that what she thought at the start of the fight had the same credit like when she called Rosemary a monster. What's interesting the moment Priscilla RELEASED youki Teresa told her that she's no match for her (normally you would think that claymore with released youki is more dangerous). She had much better chance to estimate Priscilla's power then, than she had at the start before Priscilla released youki. If Yagi didn't want us to believe that Teresa was the strongest he wouldn't make Extra Scene 1 where Teresa obliterates Abyssal One (or strong #2 as some are suggesting) with her bare hands.

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Lol, you were talking about the foddersquad?
Either you didn't notice there were 5 warriors not 4 or you didn't remember that there were two death squads. If there was only one death squad I wouldn't use the word "FIRST".

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Hmm, that is a ridiculously flawed statement. The damage Teresa can deal is limited by what her sword can do. If she strikes an enemy at a non-lethal spot, no matter how much power she uses the injury will still be non-lethal.
Huh? Have you ever heard about inertia (Irene used it when she cut her own arm off)? You can strike someone with a big, heavy sword at non-lethal spot (e.g. an ear) and kill him because you wouldn't stop at that but cut him in half. If you need pictures here:

Initially Clare attacked non lethal spot. That's not the best example but you get the idea I hope. What Teresa did required skill and strength. Take an axe and make no shallower cut than 10 milimeters (about 2/5 of an inch) and no deeper than 20 milimeters on a softwood on your first try. What Teresa did was many times more difficult.

Quote:
Hmm, you're wrong. Priscilla had insane amounts of Yoki. Sure, they weren't as insane as Teresa's. But Teresa didn't know that. She "sensed" her potential, which was huge. But she didn't know how much Yoki she could
currently use, which was also huge, just not big enough to thwart Teresa. That COULD justify Teresa's statement.
That's not an issue here. I mentioned it because Teresa used the word "may" and that doesn't make sense because Teresa knew that in claymore form Priscilla is no match for her (unless she would use sneak attack ninja style). Before Priscilla could release enough youki to pressure Teresa she would be long dead. Teresa could kill Priscilla on many occasions but she wanted to spare her. Even when she was over 50% (or even 70%) she still gave her a chance to go back even though she could kill her with ease. That was the problem. She no longer was fit for battle but she was stronger than her and there wasn't just "slight" chance or even high chance for winning. It was 100% chance. The problem was, Teresa allowed Priscilla to go over 80% and then she relaxed and shut off her youki.

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And that's wrong. The Quicksword uses the sword arm's Awakening. Awakening = Yoki release. Irene doesn't have that much Yoki to make it unreadable, and it's fully concentrated, so the problems Teresa had with half-Awakened Priscilla are irrelevant. We know that Yoki precognition can cover a huge gulf in speed, enabling Clare to fight on par with single-digits before she even had Irene's arm. If the speed is much closer, such as that of Teresa's and Irene's Awakened arm, the precognition can definitely cover it.
Spoiler for long post:


Quote:
Without superhuman lightning-fast reflexes to exploit the advantage her senses gave her, Clare would've been obliterated in a matter of seconds. The speed difference was too huge to suggest otherwise, not to mention that even if your body improves, you still need much faster thought process to analyze and avoid attacks from a faster opponent.
Firstly, I would like to note that I was the first one to consider that claymores have better motion sensing and think quicker than humans and I see you liked it :]. I thought about it in quite a detail when I wrote my previous posts and didn't say that claymore's and human's brain are the same just that I'm assuming it to prove my argument at certain angle of thinking. As Arturro stated, you don't have to think (at lest not consciously) to react to an attack you can't see coming. What's more one thing is to react, the other is to analyse and then react. Since we're arguing about preemptive youki sensing, skill that requires analysing flow of youki, quick reaction is not relevant here. Teresa had to analyse an attack and then react if she used this technique but she didn't use it on Irene IMO because it would only slow her reactions, it was useless against her. It was useless because of infinitesimal intervals between every distinctive attack. So the flow of information Teresa received was humongous and even then she would have to think how hold a sword, at what distance from the opponent stand, etc. It's just too much and I think it was pure instinctive reflex what Teresa used.
Claymores have magic powers that allow them to increase their strength significantly but they still have the same memories they had. It's not definite that they can think quicker. In fact, we don't really know how fast a human can think and what would happen if a human suddenly had the strength of a claymore. He might be able to react in time just like claymores do if he gained some battle experience and trained a bit. It could be that claymores gain only better motion sensing and with increased reflexes and animal senses they can avoid high speed attacks.

Quote:
in a purely hypothetical example, if Clare was facing Miria, and Teresa was facing a - supposedly - maximum potential Priscilla that was using her Yoki. Let's say Clare's base speed is 5 (just a random number, don't shoot), and Miria's is 60, and Teresa's base speed is 300, and Priscilla's is 320. Though the speed difference between Teresa and Priscilla is minimal compared to that between Miria and Clare, Teresa would still need faster reflexes than Clare to respond to the motions she read from Priscilla. That's why Clamores must have superhuman reflexes and analytical capacity as far as battle is concerned. Otherwise nothing makes sense.
That's very good argument and nice analogy you wrote however you've added to quicker thinking super reflexes. Super reflexes don't require to analyse every attack to miniscule level. The problem stays however, quicksword is the worst possible match-up for preemptive youki sensing. You not only need super reflexes and quick thinking. You have to analyse every single move and what's worse you have thousands of such moves and every is distinctive. You would need to have higher speed of thinking than the move itself but that wouldn't be enough. You would need enough capacity of memory to analyse all motions. And even if you could see the move and know where it would come you would still have to prepare for it. Even if you could deflect one, two or three I can't see how you could avoid all of them. Let's say you're sparring with someone and you know that every second move there would be a left/right hook (and only such hits). If after quite a long time you would decide to change the sequence (from left/right to right/left) there would be high chance that you would be so used to the earlier sequence that the first hit you wouldn't dodge. In Irene vs. Teresa it was much more complex. Basically Teresa had to read EVERY move and that is sth unbelievable. What's more, even if Teresa knew all that she would still have to know where to stand and at what angle hold her sword. Analysing all that is IMO a stretch. And that still is not everything. At this point, if someone could do all that it would allow him only for defence. Somehow Teresa could attack any time she wanted! If she really was using pre-emptive youki sensing and if she really had such high speed of thinking then she's even better then I thought at first (and I've always considered her as a goddess).

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Clare outmatching the Awakened Being with her senses defeats all your arguments.
No. As I've written earlier preemptive youki sensing "was quite effective with many spread or ranged attacks". Before monster's claw could reach Clare she had time to react accordingly, slightly changing her position. It was also effective in case of sneak attacks by youma, AB or uncloaked (most) claymores. Quicksword does a constant youki flow, always at maximum, it's not like Riguard's attack with his claws where there was a huge difference between the attacks. Not attacking and then attacking from a distance opposed to incessant attacks with infinitesimal interval.
Quote:
Since Yoki comes from the Yoma who are by nature simply predators who only know how to kill and feed, increasing only battle prowess is not a coincidence, it's a logical consequence.
I thought you would say that . The problem is, youma's opponents (or should I say prey?) are humans and they're slow compared to youma. They wouldn't require super-battle-thinking so it's not logical consequence. Also, Claymores are totally different than them and it would be very convenient that by mixing youma's flesh and blood they would receive their super brain as well. However I look at it I can't buy that it would be that selective. IMO it's more complicated than that and the main reason claymores can react in time are their reflexes and animal instincts and ALSO better motion sensing.

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No, no it wasn't. What is required to stop motion are the legs themselves, which were fully Awakened thus fully equipped to stop it. Clare simply didn't have the mental capacity to match her speed and control her movements. (...)
Of course it was. Somehow she could start and run when she wanted to (for example when she dodged Rigald's attack from behind) but she had only problems with stopping and was always sliding. I wonder why is that? Again I have to repeat myself: inertia, dynamic friction and unequipped body, i.e. massive legs and light other parts of her body. If you had feet 2 yards long even if your brain wanted to run you wouldn't be able to and it would have nothing to do with the speed of thinking. Please note that Clare could "control" her speed only when she awakened her arm. Her control increased only then and it had nothing to do with her thought process like you said.

Edit:
Quote:
Also thinking fast has nothing to do with intelligence.
I disagree. Although I don't have scientific records, from my experience quick thinkers are extremely intelligent. Some time ago I played chess obsessively and every chess player I knew that played blitz chess was extremely intelligent. The same goes for exams, the best students that finish solving problems the quickest are usually the most intelligent.

Last edited by Gooral; 2009-08-11 at 05:06.
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Old 2009-08-11, 06:15   Link #2547
Slash_Emperor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Actually no (OK, the probability of such thing is not zero but IMO it's close to it). Teresa didn't acknowledge that Priscilla may have the potential to surpass her. All she said was that she may not defeat Priscilla. That's a BIG difference (she didn't even say that she might be defeated by her, only that she might not win and certainly she didn't think Priscilla had the potential to surpass her). Ultimately Teresa was defeated by Priscilla but she basically handed her own head to her. You could kill even the strongest man if you stabbed him in the back or if he didn't fight back.
You know, authors don't just put words in their characters' mouths which are never directly refuted just for us to question them for no reason at all. As long as Irene, the Organization, and Teresa herself said Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa, and there's no evidence whatsoever to hint otherwise as we don't know how strong Priscilla could indeed become, and more importantly, from the very moment Teresa gauged Priscilla as a threat and decided to lop her head off, it became clear that - oh dear God - they are, quite probably right.

In other words, you can quote however many essays you want. It remains a manga fact for me that Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
And "epic lulz" at you since you think that Priscilla didn't unlock her potential when she awakened. On what base are you saying that? The moment we've seen sarcastic monster, she released her latent abilities. She wouldn't be able to have more youki, she could only learn how to use her strength and unique body to the fullest, just like it is with other AB.
See the above post. It's a logical conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Discussing with you is difficult since you don't want to read my earlier points and I have to repeat myself (note that not everything below relates to what you said. I'm too lazy to rewrite it).
Discussing with you is difficult since you always say things irrelevant to the discussion. Most of what's in that spoiler'd post is stuff I actually agree with.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Read carefully what Louvre/Rubel said: "I'd heard she would surpass Teresa. When she awakened it was as if her latent abilities were released." I'd heard Yuma has more potential than Priscilla, so?
They haven't seen the fight with Teresa and no one could confirm that. They only knew that AB was born which means claymore had access to it's hidden power. They could tell the same about Clare if she awakened or Ophelia, or Jean or anyone else for that matter. Exactly how could Rubel know about Priscilla releasing her latent potential, huh? Even if he was there he wouldn't be able to assess Priscilla's strength. So what you're doing is taking foolish, unsupported by any evidence talk as sth supporting your theory. What's funny, to you words have more meaning than empirical evidences (i.e. Teresa obliterating Priscilla).
Meaningless. I never even considered Rubel's words. Only Teresa's, and for a small part Irene's. I specifically said that Rubel's words were incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
And why are you assuming that 80% Priscilla was nowhere near her full power? There's no indication of that even if we assume that Rubel's words were accurate. In this particular case "Latent abilities were released" = "all of latent abilities were released" but do we know that at 80% none of these latent abilities were released? Have we ever seen claymore warrior fighting at 70%-80% (besides Priscilla and Clare) of his power ? Nope, even Galatea didn't fight at 70-80% which is a point of no return. Every time claymore was near awakening he tried to go back, was occupied with restraining himself so it's not strange we didn't see that he was actually powerful (however we've seen Clare was extremely powerful which supports my opinion, even though not entirely awakened she was über strong). It's not definite that at full awakening there is bonus to strength, maybe there is but it's all speculation. Also if we take data books into account that's definitely not true. For example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being. Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).
Meaningless. I never said Priscilla was nowhere near her full power. If Priscilla (10% Yoki) = 100, then Priscilla (80% Yoki) = 800, and Priscilla (Awakened) = 1000, and Teresa (10% Yoki) = around 900, from the reaction Awakened Priscilla received. The fact that a group of weaker people can defeat a strong single being, especially if we're talking about fast, agile Claymores against large, bulky Awakened Beings, is not refuted. Even if we're talking about one-on-one encounters, like Ophelia against that Awakened Being, it's not difficult to envision. The first one to deliver a fatal blow wins, really, and that can be either one, higher stats only means that he has better chances. The Awakened Being thought it had killed Ophelia, but it didn't and Ophelia just cut it to pieces with one attack. Teresa was insane - her stats are probably just the Organization's evaluation, and the Organization didn't even know she had killed Awakened Rosemary (unless she stupidly left the corpse there). Even if her physical skills didn't quite match up, her senses and Yoki would cover any gap in a matter of seconds. Sorry, but stats don't mean all that much to me. All they do is provide a scale with which we can measure warriors' individual capabilities. Especially when comparing warriors with Awakened Beings, they're largely unimportant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
"Priscilla 80% got a boost of 800-1000%", ok let's assume you're right. Now look at Teresa, she got at 10% enough boost to deal with her at ease (obviously it was more since she easily defeated 80% Priscilla). What's really retarded and many people here are doing it, is assuming that Priscilla would get humongous power boost after awakening and Teresa not or Teresa's power boost would be smaller and it's all based on Irene's (before she even sensed foretaste of Teresa's real power) and Rubel's words (he on the other hand knew shit, maybe they sensed youki explosion but that's it). And do we know what's youki's speed? How it propagates? How it reacts to natural obstacles? Is it sth that can be sensed immediately?
Meaningless. I already stated my viewpoint, which is pretty much solid fact. Priscilla was wielding 80% of her Yoki and Teresa just 10%, and Teresa was much stronger. I said just above - even if she Awakened Priscilla would lose against Teresa. She just caught her off-guard and sliced her arms off. That's all there is to it. Rubel, Irene and the likes have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Last but not least, however you would interpret Extra Chapter 3, Priscilla just after killing Teresa and just before owning Isley were two totally different persons. Just before killing Teresa her youki was overflowing from her constantly; I wouldn't call it holding back or being feared of using too much of it. After she awakened she was completely aware of what was going on, being even sarcastic. She didn't want to be killed either. We have yet to see Priscilla like that again. When she obliterated Isley she used full power, didn't last long though. Call it weak mind or whatever, but the result was the same as exhaustion of AB youki. Also Teresa wasn't even close to 100% when she showed her power, Priscilla was.
Meaningless, and wrong. Once Priscilla Awakened, her mind was consumed and she became the Awakened Being Priscilla, the same one that butchered Irene, Noel and Sophia, and the one that defeated Rigardo and Isley. And we've already established a thousand times over that Teresa 10% is much stronger than Priscilla 80%.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
As for Irene, you believe her words when she said Priscilla will surpass Teresa but don't believe when she corrected herself and commented on Teresa's strength, finally understanding the gap between Teresa and Priscilla.
No, but I believe Teresa when she said that Priscilla could be trouble in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
As for Teresa's words, IMO she was referring to 0% youki release, meaning she was afraid she might have to release youki at some point which would cause mayhem and destruction. Priscilla was of no match to her from the start and she knew it, however she acknowledged that in time her strength won't be sth infinitesimal compared to her own. That's all. Otherwise I don't see a reason why would she let Priscilla go freely.
When Teresa released 10% of her Yoki, there was no mayhem and destruction, just some warriors being wtf'd at her power. And Teresa considered killing Priscilla even after she released her Yoki - that, more than anything else, pretty much establishes that Priscilla, sometime, alone or with help, would pose a threat to Teresa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Do you think she would value Priscilla's life more than Clare's well being? A moment ago she massacred whole bandit group, I don't think she would hesitate to kill some crazy bitch if she knew she wouldn't be able to handle her in time.
Teresa told the bandits they were lower than Yoma. On the other hand, Priscilla reminded her of Clare. Teresa had become soft. It wasn't that she refuted her earlier statement, just that she spared Priscilla's life. If Teresa hid her Yoki carefully, there was no way they could track her down anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
The fact is she was confident she could defeat Priscilla every time but at some point she could be forced to use her youki (which was extremely rare in her case). "You can come after me as many times as you want. I will cut you down every time" (vol. 5, p 17, and yes it's past Teresa's comment "I may be able to beat her down, but next time who knows").
She was talking to Irene, and it was meant as a discouragement anyway. If Priscilla reached her full potential (which there were no guarantees it would happen, warriors die or lose themselves all the time), Teresa was still worried. Nothing she ever said contradicts that. The order of comments you flaunted at me doesn't matter, because nothing happened between them. Teresa evaluated Priscilla as a future threat, decided to kill her, changed her mind, and then told Irene that statement. Nothing changed between the one quote and the other concerning Priscilla's strength, current or future. Teresa just changed her mind.
Here you have negation of what you're thinking. When Priscilla cut Teresa's hands off she wasn't faster than earlier, Teresa deliberately became slower, was a sucker and dropped her guard, turned off her youki. In that time even Irene could have killed Teresa, although I doubt she would be a cut-throat bitch like Priscilla.

Quote:
And there is Irene's strange behavior (volume 7, pages about 100-110). I for one would think that she would tell Clare that even Teresa was nowhere near Priscilla's power if that was the case. After all she sensed Priscilla after she "released her latent abilities". When talking to Clare she told her:
"There's not a warrior alive today who can stop her". (It means that there WAS a warrior that could stop Priscilla but now he's dead. It wouldn't make much sense to add "alive" word if she meant generally that there wasn't and isn't warrior who can stop her.)
No, she sensed Priscilla after she Awakened. I will use an extraordinarily basic, very simple numerical example to demonstrate my thoughts.

Priscilla (suppressed, flashback): 100
Priscilla (10% Yoki release): 150
Priscilla (80% Yoki release): 1200
Priscilla (Awakened): 1500
Priscilla (theoretical maximum potential, suppressed): 1500

Teresa (suppressed): 1000
Teresa (10% Yoki release): 1500

Alicia: 80
Alicia (controlled Awakening): 1200

So you see, with this, "it was like Priscilla unleashed all her potential when she Awakened", "Priscilla has the potential to defeat Teresa", "there is no warrior alive who can beat Priscilla", and "Alicia is the strongest Number 1 in the annals" (remember that they only had a measure of Teresa's base, and a very inaccurate one at that. As long as Awakened Alicia was better than base Teresa, it'd be a pretty good statement to make. Also note that that statement was made by Irene, who had no gauge on Alicia's power, so Alicia might well be stronger).

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
What I consider the strongest argument however is chibamonster's literal translation of what Irene said AFTER she thought Priscilla could surpass Teresa and BEFORE she saw Teresa releasing ANY of her powers:

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(...) Well, I found something more interesting. Irene does not say, "Teresa repelled Priscilla's insane strength with just enough youki release to change her eyes." She says, "I can't believe it! Teresa is exceeding Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color!" The word used is Uwamawaru. (上回る(P);【うわまわる】 to exceed).

And on the next page, she does not say "That is the true nature of Teresa's strength." She says, "Is this really Teresa's true strength when she has released her youki?" (...)
That's the strongest argument? That's hardly an argument. Irene saw Priscilla fighting relatively closely to Teresa. Then Priscilla went to 80%, which by all logic should have allowed her to eliminate a "close" gap. Then Teresa defies all logic and beats her down with just 10% of her Yoki. Nothing about potential there.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
If that's not enough (I hope you won't be an ignorant this time and look at the links I provided and read the posts with comprehension):
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ng#post2338499
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ng#post2338593
I really, really won't. I bothered to reply to the last post you linked me to. It said nothing that I've never disproven / agreed with before, and it had a whole lot of irrelevant stuff (that I even replied to). If you want to say something relevant to the conversation, just write it.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
In short, Irene was just guessing when she stated that Priscilla could surpass Teresa and the Organization couldn't know a thing about Teresa's or Priscilla's true power. As for Teresa herself, everything indicates that what she thought at the start of the fight had the same credit like when she called Rosemary a monster. What's interesting the moment Priscilla RELEASED youki Teresa told her that she's no match for her (normally you would think that claymore with released youki is more dangerous). She had much better chance to estimate Priscilla's power then, than she had at the start before Priscilla released youki. If Yagi didn't want us to believe that Teresa was the strongest he wouldn't make Extra Scene 1 where Teresa obliterates Abyssal One (or strong #2 as some are suggesting) with her bare hands.
Of course. Priscilla was weak back then. But she could become stronger. Irene said it. The Organization said it. Teresa said it.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Either you didn't notice there were 5 warriors not 4 or you didn't remember that there were two death squads. If there was only one death squad I wouldn't use the word "FIRST".
When you said Death Squad I immediately thought of Irene, Priscilla, Noel and Sophia (who were, indeed, wounded so they cannot move - except Priscilla - but not lethally injured, so the rest of your post would apply). That's all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Huh? Have you ever heard about inertia (Irene used it when she cut her own arm off)? You can strike someone with a big, heavy sword at non-lethal spot (e.g. an ear) and kill him because you wouldn't stop at that but cut him in half. If you need pictures here:

Initially Clare attacked non lethal spot. That's not the best example but you get the idea I hope. What Teresa did required skill and strength. Take an axe and make no shallower cut than 10 milimeters (about 2/5 of an inch) and no deeper than 20 milimeters on a softwood on your first try. What Teresa did was many times more difficult.
If you have the strength to stop the sword, that's not a problem. Clare could swing around her sword with relative ease with her left arm after some training, and she was 1/10th of Irene's strength and speed. Teresa is much stronger and faster than Irene. To Teresa, swinging and stopping the sword would be the same as it is for us to swing a kitchen knife. Weight doesn't matter, since all Teresa needs to do is stop her hand, and the sword stops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
That's not an issue here. I mentioned it because Teresa used the word "may" and that doesn't make sense because Teresa knew that in claymore form Priscilla is no match for her (unless she would use sneak attack ninja style). Before Priscilla could release enough youki to pressure Teresa she would be long dead. Teresa could kill Priscilla on many occasions but she wanted to spare her. Even when she was over 50% (or even 70%) she still gave her a chance to go back even though she could kill her with ease. That was the problem. She no longer was fit for battle but she was stronger than her and there wasn't just "slight" chance or even high chance for winning. It was 100% chance. The problem was, Teresa allowed Priscilla to go over 80% and then she relaxed and shut off her youki.
Noone ever refuted that. The problem was, that Priscilla could become much stronger. Everyone said so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
[SPOILER="long post"]I could score a goal from 2 meters even if I told goalkeeper where I would shoot, 10 times out of 10. Imagine there would be second player that would shoot second later at the other side of the goal-post, mission impossible.

Youki sensing is an advantage when you fight slower opponent with sneaky attacks or to prevent being attacked by surprise. As we've seen in Slasher's arc it was quite effective with many spread or ranged attacks too. The difference with Irene and Teresa is that quicksword isn't spread attack, at point blank range there are quite precise slashes executed with super speed. Once arm is awakened the flow of youki is constant and at full power, there are no "lags" between one attack and another which would be caused by slower or non simultaneous youki flow and attack. If Teresa's youki sensing would be faster than Irene's youki flow it would still give her nothing because she wouldn't be able to react before next attack was coming. She had to have at least Irene's speed to back it up.
Okay, she could be slower few nanoseconds if her youki sensing was that much faster, but that's it (although if we took into account the time required to analyse the attack and send a signal to prepare proper action it wouldn't look too good).

Quicksword is the worst possible technique for someone who's using youki sensing, because knowing that you'll be slashed 53 times/second in the right arm would give you nothing if you can't tell in what angle you have to hold your sword. Irene was master at this technique. Even assuming that the attacks would be at similar angle and it would suffice to hold the sword firmly the way she held when deflecting first of 53 slashes, she would have a problem with discerning when she would attack her other arm. Quicksword does a constant youki flow, always at maximum, it's not like Riguard's attack with his claws where there was a huge difference between the attacks. Not attacking and then attacking from a distance opposed to incessant attacks with infinitesimal interval.
As I said above, said before, say below, and will probably have to say again, it doesn't matter. If it's a Yoki flow, Teresa can read it. If it moves, Teresa can perceive it. If it's a Yoki-filled arm that moves, Teresa can read and perceive it. If she can think fast, she can counter it. If she can move that fast, she must be able to think that fast, else she would just be slicing randomly. If she can match the Quicksword, she can move that fast, therefore she can think that fast, therefore she can sense the Quicksword.

I don't know how else to say it. Saying that Teresa couldn't read Irene's Quicksword with her Yoki senses is a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
If all what Teresa had was youki sensing she would be injured by Ophelia, because she wouldn't be able to predict her rippling attack, even though she was able to deal with much stronger Irene easily. I think it's ridiculous.
Teresa was adjusting her strength to her opponents level so yeah, Irene could've thought that she was quicker. The fact is that Teresa's speed must had been better, not only because she was able to deflect Irene's attacks one after another but also because she fought with 4 warriors at once. Don't you think that sensing youki would be useless at that point ?
When, when did I ever say that "all" Teresa had was Yoki sensing? Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly consider Teresa the superior in all aspects to Priscilla, Irene, and basically all other Claymores. I'm not even going to argue about that. Whether it's a swordsmanship contest between Teresa and Irene, a strength contest between Teresa and Sophia, an agility contest between Teresa and Noel, a Yoki counting between Teresa and Priscilla - Teresa wins in all these. Irene thought that was not the case, because of what you said - there was no need for Teresa to exert anywhere near full effort against any of her opponents, and Irene was clearly shocked when Teresa began showing what she was truly capable of. This all doesn't matter. None of this refutes the fact that three credible sources stated that Priscilla could eventually surpass Teresa. Teresa's attitude towards Priscilla demonstrates the same. Clearly Teresa didn't even consider Priscilla a threat at the moment, yet she still decided to kill her to eliminate future trouble. Note what Irene also said there: Teresa didn't bother with the three of them, because none of them would ever be able to challenge her. Priscilla could.

However, no matter how you look at it, Teresa's senses are her strongest point. Without them, she would be excellent, but there could be a contest. With them, she is the strongest. I disagree with you on all counts there. Teresa can read Yoki flows. Awakening channels Yoki flows through the body. Quicksword does the same, only with just the arm. Teresa's sensing is capable of reading the Quicksword's movements, and her speed, perception and analytical abilities are capable of matching it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Firstly, I would like to note that I was the first one to consider that claymores have better motion sensing and think quicker than humans and I see you liked it :].
Sorry, but for me, it's not a conclusion you have to consider, it is and has been since I first read the manga a raw fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I thought about it in quite a detail when I wrote my previous posts and didn't say that claymore's and human's brain are the same just that I'm assuming it to prove my argument at certain angle of thinking. As Arturro stated, you don't have to think (at lest not consciously) to react to an attack you can't see coming. What's more one thing is to react, the other is to analyse and then react. Since we're arguing about preemptive youki sensing, skill that requires analysing flow of youki, quick reaction is not relevant here. Teresa had to analyse an attack and then react if she used this technique but she didn't use it on Irene IMO because it would only slow her reactions, it was useless against her. It was useless because of infinitesimal intervals between every distinctive attack. So the flow of information Teresa received was humongous and even then she would have to think how hold a sword, at what distance from the opponent stand, etc. It's just too much and I think it was pure instinctive reflex what Teresa used.
Claymores have magic powers that allow them to increase their strength significantly but they still have the same memories they had. It's not definite that they can think quicker. In fact, we don't really know how fast a human can think and what would happen if a human suddenly had the strength of a claymore. He might be able to react in time just like claymores do if he gained some battle experience and trained a bit. It could be that claymores gain only better motion sensing and with increased reflexes and animal senses they can avoid high speed attacks.
Read my previous post. I never said having high analytical capacity for battle renders the Claymores supercomputers. I just said it enables them to react to attacks that would normally not be possible to react to with human speed. That requires for the brain to work, it's not instinct. Therefore, when battle is concerned, Claymores can think and analyze situations much faster than humans. That's really all there is to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
That's very good argument and nice analogy you wrote however you've added to quicker thinking super reflexes. Super reflexes don't require to analyse every attack to miniscule level. The problem stays however, quicksword is the worst possible match-up for preemptive youki sensing. You not only need super reflexes and quick thinking. You have to analyse every single move and what's worse you have thousands of such moves and every is distinctive. You would need to have higher speed of thinking than the move itself but that wouldn't be enough. You would need enough capacity of memory to analyse all motions. And even if you could see the move and know where it would come you would still have to prepare for it. Even if you could deflect one, two or three I can't see how you could avoid all of them. Let's say you're sparring with someone and you know that every second move there would be a left/right hook (and only such hits). If after quite a long time you would decide to change the sequence (from left/right to right/left) there would be high chance that you would be so used to the earlier sequence that the first hit you wouldn't dodge. In Irene vs. Teresa it was much more complex. Basically Teresa had to read EVERY move and that is sth unbelievable. What's more, even if Teresa knew all that she would still have to know where to stand and at what angle hold her sword. Analysing all that is IMO a stretch. And that still is not everything. At this point, if someone could do all that it would allow him only for defence. Somehow Teresa could attack any time she wanted! If she really was using pre-emptive youki sensing and if she really had such high speed of thinking then she's even better then I thought at first (and I've always considered her as a goddess).
The Quicksword is fast, but if it's within Teresa's analytical capability, it's well within the range of what she can perceive with her senses. Since we see Teresa demonstrate speed even to Irene's Quicksword, that becomes more or less a certainty, unless you claim that Teresa can't even catch up with her own movements (which is ridiculous, since just before you said she'd have to have excellent control in order to avoid cutting her enemies to pieces). Teresa's senses are better than her natural perception, of course.

You people seem to generally misunderstand something. Reflexes and analytical ability have nothing to do with thinking speed. All you need to do is recognize an attack you see (or sense, in Clare's and Teresa's case), and determine the most effective counter. That's something natural that comes with experience and training. Claymores have the genetic capacity to develop this ability beyond the human limits. It doesn't mean that they can think better and faster, just that they can evaluate combat situations better and faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
No. As I've written earlier preemptive youki sensing "was quite effective with many spread or ranged attacks". Before monster's claw could reach Clare she had time to react accordingly, slightly changing her position. It was also effective in case of sneak attacks by youma, AB or uncloaked (most) claymores. Quicksword does a constant youki flow, always at maximum, it's not like Riguard's attack with his claws where there was a huge difference between the attacks. Not attacking and then attacking from a distance opposed to incessant attacks with infinitesimal interval.
That's just baseless. Just as you can perceive slower attacks from wide angles, you can perceive faster attacks from narrow angles if you're equipped to do it. Teresa was. When a Yoki-filled arm moves, and you have a) senses that can read the Yoki flows even in the opponents body b) reflexes to analyze the conclusions drawn from your senses in the miniscule amount of time between the attacks and c) speed and strength to match them, you can read its movement, react to it, and repel it. Teresa had all those things, and was able to read and repel it.

You may say that it may not have been neccessary for Teresa to use her senses against the Quicksword. That's a wholly different issue, and not one I'm going to debate over. She might, or she might not, and we'll never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I thought you would say that . The problem is, youma's opponents (or should I say prey?) are humans and they're slow compared to youma. They wouldn't require super-battle-thinking so it's not logical consequence. Also, Claymores are totally different than them and it would be very convenient that by mixing youma's flesh and blood they would receive their super brain as well. However I look at it I can't buy that it would be that selective. IMO it's more complicated than that and the main reason claymores can react in time are their reflexes and animal instincts and ALSO better motion sensing.
Hmm? It was stated that the main problem for humans is that they can't find the Yoma. Once the Yoma is found, the humans can deal with him. Not one-on-one, in most cases, but they can.

Also, it doesn't matter. Yoma are constructed to fight. Heck, since the Organization makes them, you can't even use natural thought processes as an argument any more. Yoma are made to fight, and if they were some sort of experiment against the Dragonkin, the opponent's strength shouldn't matter. We've seen Yoma pose a threat to Claymores. Claymores inherit those genetic traits, and refine them through the training they receive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Of course it was. Somehow she could start and run when she wanted to (for example when she dodged Rigald's attack from behind) but she had only problems with stopping and was always sliding. I wonder why is that? Again I have to repeat myself: inertia, dynamic friction and unequipped body, i.e. massive legs and light other parts of her body. If you had feet 2 yards long even if your brain wanted to run you wouldn't be able to and it would have nothing to do with the speed of thinking. Please note that Clare could "control" her speed only when she awakened her arm. Her control increased only then and it had nothing to do with her thought process like you said.
No, it's a matter of mental reaction. An Awakened body requires an Awakened mind, and cannot be controlled by a human mind. Only insane willpower can manage that feat, like Irene's when she mastered her Quicksword. Once Clare got used to it, she began trying to thwart her motion by slamming her hand into the ground. And Rigardo said Clare managed to bring her speed under control, but in that panel her arm was still human.

Clare's Awakened body was built for that speed. Sure, she hadn't fully Awakened, and that was, for a very large part, causing her these difficulties. But the main problem was that she couldn't control her movements, just like she couldn't control her Quicksword initially. That's exactly the same thing. Eventually, she was able to overcome it with her mind exerting control over her arm. Similarly, she was able to control her legs. I don't see why you argue against something we've seen happen before, and had it explicitly explained to us.
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Old 2009-08-11, 16:36   Link #2548
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
@Slash, your post was way too long to quote, so I won’t bother and just point out points that I disagree.

First, Teresa does not need to be stronger, faster then others and her 10% does not need to be more powerful then 80% Priscilla for her to defeat them. For her vs Sophia, Noel, and Irene, she can be weaker then Sophia, slower then Noel, and much slower then Irene’s QS and still beat them hands down because of preemptive sensing. For her 10% vs 80% Priscilla, her preemptive sensing is not rendered completely useless but just made less effective. The comment on whose youki was the larger one was unclear and can be interpreted either way – Pris > Teresa or Teresa > Pris.

Second, you presented that Teresa and Irene’s comment regarding Priscilla is what the author wanted to convey to us. The same argument should also be applied towards awakening releasing Priscilla’s potential. Otherwise why would a trait of explosive growth ever be assigned to Priscilla and why would there be such a large difference in capability between 80% Priscilla and awakened Priscilla?

Third, I disagree with the notion that awakening is linear progression and AB = 100% youki level of the former claymore. Generally ABs are shown to be vastly superior to claymores and even mid ranked ones require hunting teams to take down. The increase in power from awakening is far more then adding additional 20%. I am assuming you think this way by your math examples. If my assumption was erroneous, do let me know.

Fourth, when you say Teresa was ambushed, Priscilla wasn’t any faster or Irene would have been able to do the same, it contradicts with the basis of Teresa being stronger and faster then them. Even with dropping 10% to 0% and becoming soft, she should still be able to at least dodge the beheading without Priscilla improving her speed dramatically. She could have quickly released to beyond 10%, avoid further attacks and reattached her hands. When Teresa walked up to Priscilla, she was also facing Priscilla when it occurred so even if preemptive sensing is not employed, there is still sight.

@Gooral, 上回る can also be translated in that context as Teresa is even stronger/better in the general sense and not a literal sense. The term itself literally means above or over and beyond. So Irene is saying Teresa is even above such a monster that is 80% releases Prisicilla. It does not necessarily have to be comparing Teresa’s youki to Prisicilla’s youki. It just means that Teresa can still defeat 80% Priscilla. Teresa can still be the weaker youki and is slower in raw speed and still win. Plenty of examples of raw power do not equate to winning or losing in this Manga.

As for the translation of Irene words of Volume 7 page 112 of JP Raw. She said “Gen senshi no naka de…” which can be loosely translated into ‘out of the warriors that are still alive’ but more accurately as ‘In the current generation of warriors’. There is no emphasis on warriors being alive or dead or hidden implications of anyone in the past able to defeat Priscilla given the context.

Clare learned to read her own QS with youki reading and combined the two into an improved version of more controlled QS. Teresa can definitely read Irene’s QS.
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Old 2009-08-11, 17:18   Link #2549
irvinethearcher
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I think we should talk about all this in the teresa vs. priscilla thread.

My 2 cent's.
1. we don't know WHAT was the weaker yoki. It could be that teresa with 10% outmatched priscilla's 80% yokiwise
2. theresa judged priscilla only from fighting her suppressed. So she had no clue about her yoki. At the end she said: As things are now you can't beat me.
This could mean that she is still too weak it could also mean that she has not enough yoki to ever be able to beat priscilla.
3. Even if teresa was unfit for battle she would not have risked clare's life because of sparing priscilla's. IMO she was quite confident at the end that she could beat priscilla no matter what.
4. First i thought that priscilla was equal to theresa but after reading the xtra chapter 1 i changed my opinion:
-Theresa defeated a probably abyssal one class AB.
-The way she did it was unbelievable: She twisted one of the two strong main arms with her left wrist off as if it was paper without even releasing yoki.
(No, this is not something any claymore or muscular sophia can do. Riful said it herself in the last chapter: What can two normal warriors probably do? Not even claire's windcutter could harm her ribbons. IF rosemary was AO there was no way sophia could twist that arm off because she could not be stronger than clare's windcutter if we assume that rosemary's arm is as strong as riful's ribbons)
-the last hint about how gifted teresa was, was when she sensed rafaella.

The anti -teresa fraction uses exceptions to defend their points which are really not solid:
1. They assume rosemary was not AO class. Improbable because ALL #1 who awakened were AO so far.
2. Rafaella was not fully stealthed. Improbable. We don't even know if she ever released any yoki at all. We can be sure that she is much faster in erasing her aura than the ghosts because she was trained to do it.

-at last the point which annoys me the most is that some think theresa had more experience than priscilla or a better sowrdsmanship.
On the contrary priscilla had the advantage because she was stealthed and teresa was not used to fight someone like that.
If claire was able to nearly kill an above average ab in a weakened state with preemptive aura protection and claire was only 1/10 of Irene than teresa should be able to kill
all ABs up to number 3 with not more than one or two strikes from her sword. So she could not gain any experience from fighting them and she did probably not train.
Even the p.e.p. was seemingly inborn if we consider that chibi teresa was probably as good at reading yoki to the minuscule detail as blind galatea under the assumption
that rafaella was as stealth-ed as a soldier on the meds which is a compromise between she was not and she had her aura totally erased like the ghosts.

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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske
For her 10% vs 80% Priscilla, her preemptive sensing is not rendered completely useless but just made less effective
No, it was useless because the ability sensing was in the databook translated to sense yoki to the "MINUSCULE" detail. If the "minuscule" is not there she can only sense yoki like a normal claymore.
Therefore most of the translators have translated it with "not be able to read the flow". Even irene said that theresa can do "more" than mere sensing. So if the "more" is there no more there is only the normal
yoki sensing. Which is indeed useless for the preemptive aura protection. The sneak attack would never ever have worked if she could have sensed priscilla. To make teresa's death believable yagi had to get rid of the p.e.p. .

@gooral and Slash_Emperor
please try to avoid "quote wars". I really want to be a part of the conversation but i can not read all this nor can i answer all this. If no one except you can read this all your effort is worthless.

Can teresa block irene's q.s.? Well, rafaella could block clare's stealthed windcutter which is as strong as her qs in pieta but half as strong as irene's qs but stealthed.
If rafaella could block such a technique there is a good possibility that theresa can block it too even if she could not read it.
I am not sure if clare could read her own qs. She could direct it to the flow of the enemies yoki and avoid the flow of her allies. But did she have to read it?
But you are probably right. If theresa could read rafaella she probably can read irene's qs.
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Old 2009-08-11, 18:11   Link #2550
SagaraSouske
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I am not Anti-Teresa, just don't believe she is god like.

Slash is no more Anti-Teresa then I am, he merely thinks Priscilla is as strong as Teresa. That's a point that I agree.
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Old 2009-08-11, 18:31   Link #2551
SagaraSouske
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
No, it was useless because the ability sensing was in the databook translated to sense yoki to the "MINUSCULE" detail. If the "minuscule" is not there she can only sense yoki like a normal claymore.
Therefore most of the translators have translated it with "not be able to read the flow". Even irene said that theresa can do "more" than mere sensing. So if the "more" is there no more there is only the normal
yoki sensing. Which is indeed useless for the preemptive aura protection.
The description is only referring Teresa's mastery of preemptive sensing. It does not mean without sensing youki in minuscule detail, you cannot get any information at all. Think about it. Reading minuscule details vs reading general flow only means you get more info vs less info. With less info, you can interpret less accurately what your opponent is going to do but you still have a limited read on them. It's not an all or nothing proposition. It would be comparable to Clare before she mastered preemptive sensing. It made Teresa no longer invulnerable but doesn't mean she gets no benefit out of it at all.

Preemptive sensing differs from normal youki reading not in how well you read the youki but in what you do after you read the youki. Galatea can read detailed youki flow just as well and possibly even better then Teresa, but she still does not possess preemptive sensing.
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Old 2009-08-11, 18:34   Link #2552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
First, Teresa does not need to be stronger, faster then others and her 10% does not need to be more powerful then 80% Priscilla for her to defeat them. For her vs Sophia, Noel, and Irene, she can be weaker then Sophia, slower then Noel, and much slower then Irene’s QS and still beat them hands down because of preemptive sensing. For her 10% vs 80% Priscilla, her preemptive sensing is not rendered completely useless but just made less effective. The comment on whose youki was the larger one was unclear and can be interpreted either way – Pris > Teresa or Teresa > Pris.
There's a problem with that though. Teresa never really demonstrated what she was truly capable of in front of the others when the evaluation was made. We've seen Teresa snap off the arm of a former Number 1 Awakened Being casually. We also realize that when Irene made those statements, she still believed that with the four of them, they could take on Teresa. That was obviously wrong, so the basis of this argument was also wrong - therefore Teresa was much more potent than Irene realized. I'm not saying she has to be, but the odds are against her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Second, you presented that Teresa and Irene’s comment regarding Priscilla is what the author wanted to convey to us. The same argument should also be applied towards awakening releasing Priscilla’s potential. Otherwise why would a trait of explosive growth ever be assigned to Priscilla and why would there be such a large difference in capability between 80% Priscilla and awakened Priscilla?
Because Teresa's comment comes from a credible source, namely herself, who knew her own power, knew Priscilla's potential, and could gauge them against each other, therefore making it a fact rather than a hypothesis, and Rubel's comment comes from someone who can't even sense Yoki, can be interpreted in both your and my way, and my way makes much more sense?

Seriously, Rubel said, and I've now read four different translations that say the same thing, that when Priscilla Awakened it was as if she released all her latent potential. That can casually and without problem be interpreted as, when Priscilla Awakened, her Awakened body was so strong it could be considered equal to what she would have been at her prime, without Awakening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Third, I disagree with the notion that awakening is linear progression and AB = 100% youki level of the former claymore. Generally ABs are shown to be vastly superior to claymores and even mid ranked ones require hunting teams to take down. The increase in power from awakening is far more then adding additional 20%. I am assuming you think this way by your math examples. If my assumption was erroneous, do let me know.
The math was just a pure hypothetical example to show that my theory is in fact logically applicable without flaws. First of all, the "Yoki burst" increase isn't the same for all warriors, so Teresa and Priscilla might be much closer, but Teresa's 10% release state could be as much of a 'boost' as Priscilla's 80%. In the examples I gave I have 1,5x multiplier for 10% state, and from there on it goes linearly up to Awakening, which is 100% Yoki release (so basically a 15x multiplier). I'd say that's a fair, fair deal more than 20%, and it could be even more - those were just some random numbers.

But since specific percentages were given, I'll stand by my view that Awakened Priscilla = 100% Yoki release Priscilla = 10x 10% Priscilla. Potential doesn't even come into question here.

You say Awakened Beings seem far more powerful than the above hypothesis would suggest. I agree. They don't have to suppress or control their Yoki and the murderous impulses that come with it. Their massive bodies allow for an increase in physical attributes as well (depending on the form). They gain new powers and abilities. Of course they're much stronger. But they don't just suddenly, inexplicably gain power that was never there. This is all a result of a linear increase in Yoki and a transformation based on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Fourth, when you say Teresa was ambushed, Priscilla wasn’t any faster or Irene would have been able to do the same, it contradicts with the basis of Teresa being stronger and faster then them. Even with dropping 10% to 0% and becoming soft, she should still be able to at least dodge the beheading without Priscilla improving her speed dramatically. She could have quickly released to beyond 10%, avoid further attacks and reattached her hands. When Teresa walked up to Priscilla, she was also facing Priscilla when it occurred so even if preemptive sensing is not employed, there is still sight.
But she was at base. Even her reflexes wouldn't be good enough to counter 80% Priscilla's slash. If she released her Yoki, sure, there'd be no problem, but that was the whole point. Without the increase in perception and speed provided by her massive Yoki, Teresa wasn't fast enough to react to Priscilla's surprise attack. And how was she going to reattach her arms, exactly? She had both arms cut off and no means to fight back, so she'd have to manually approach them with her body, which would render her extremely vulnerable no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
@Gooral, 上回る can also be translated in that context as Teresa is even stronger/better in the general sense and not a literal sense. The term itself literally means above or over and beyond. So Irene is saying Teresa is even above such a monster that is 80% releases Prisicilla. It does not necessarily have to be comparing Teresa’s youki to Prisicilla’s youki. It just means that Teresa can still defeat 80% Priscilla. Teresa can still be the weaker youki and is slower in raw speed and still win. Plenty of examples of raw power do not equate to winning or losing in this Manga.
Actually, there's a good point here, now that I've re-read it. Irene expresses surprise at the monstrous amounts of Yoki raging around before she even sees the pair fighting, and wonder over which one is whose. She then proceeds to the scene, only to be overawed by Priscilla's strength. Both are standing right in front of her, but Irene only mentions Priscilla, as if her earlier quote was referring to her. She only becomes surprised at Teresa's power, when Teresa retaliates against Priscilla's attacks - but as you've correctly said, Yoki may not have factored in that part, and Irene might be attributing it to the overall increased combat capacity of Teresa rather than the sheer volume of her Yoki.

But either way, it's a moot point (which is why it wasn't addressed at me, but I felt the need to support it). Even if Teresa was weaker in strength than Sophia, slower in agility than Noel, less skilled in swordsmanship than Irene's Quicksword, and had lesser Yoki at 10% than Priscilla had at 80% - it doesn't really matter. One way or another, she could still beat them all with minimal effort. The real point of this discussion was about Priscilla's potential surpassing Teresa or not, then we extrapolated to Irene's Quicksword vs Teresa's senses - but I believed I provided enough evidence for either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
As for the translation of Irene words of Volume 7 page 112 of JP Raw. She said “Gen senshi no naka de…” which can be loosely translated into ‘out of the warriors that are still alive’ but more accurately as ‘In the current generation of warriors’. There is no emphasis on warriors being alive or dead or hidden implications of anyone in the past able to defeat Priscilla given the context.
Sorry, but I don't really see what you're saying here. Teresa belongs in a past generation, so she isn't included in this no matter how you translate it. And by Clare's time, Irene has become a far less reliable source of information than she used to be, since she has no means of finding out what is going on at the Organization. I'm not saying that Alicia & Beth can take on Priscilla, not as they are now, but even if they could Irene wouldn't know that.
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Old 2009-08-12, 00:58   Link #2553
Kikaifan
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Okay, can people please stop trying to play number games with yoki release percentages? We really have no idea how much of a boost yoki release gives.

Saying blah blah at 70% is like seven times blah blah at 10% is bad math no matter what your assumptions are, and it could be extremely far off. It could easily be the case that yoki release gives something like a 10% boost at 10% with diminishing returns after, so with a base value of 100 (for whatever vague notion of combat effectiveness we think we're quantifying here) Priscilla at 10% is like 110 and Priscilla at 70% is... 150 or something. Half again as strong. I'm not suggesting that's a correct value, it's just an example to remind that the numbers we've been given are only measurements of how close the warrior is to surpassing their limits, and not any kind of measurement of the actual effect of the release on their combat ability. We have no idea what kind of relationship one has with the other. It could be simple, but it might turn out to be some complicated graph that's nowhere close to uniform.
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Old 2009-08-12, 02:47   Link #2554
haegar
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I think clare is stronger than miria. Miria is stronger than galatea. Dauff is weaker than riful. Isley was stronger than riful. Riful is stronger than clare. Riful is stronger than miria. Riful is stronger than galatea. Clare and Galatea and Jean are stronger than Dauff. Jean is weaker than dauff. Dauff is dumb, but that just as an aside . Jean was stronger than clarice is right now. Alicia is stronger than Miria. Alicia is weaker than theresa was. Rosemary is weaker than theresa. Helen and Deneve are fun. Helen is stronger than yuma. yuma is stronger than clarice. Raki is stronger than a yoma. all clays are stronger than yoma. The half awakend are stronger than the single digits of the current gen. Renee sees less than galatea. Riful sees less than galatea. Renee sees more than riful. Rifulis stronger than miata. Miata is stronger than helen and deneve.................. ..... see why numbers might make sense?
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Old 2009-08-12, 03:30   Link #2555
Kikaifan
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I'm talking about people acting like yoki release percentage can be treated as some kind of multiplier, not the practice of making up vague numeric representations for combat ability. The bold part is the important part - character xx is at yy% release only tells you how close they are to their limit, not anything about what benefits they're deriving from it.

Although really what you're doing there is just assigning ranges anyway. It's just whether it's easier to remember numbers or relationships, which is probably different between individuals.
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Old 2009-08-12, 04:03   Link #2556
Gooral
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@Slash

Fact 1
Teresa didn't say that Priscilla had the potential to surpass her.
Fact 2
Teresa didn't say that she can lose to her.
Fact 3
Teresa had doubts she may win (not in the future but at the moment) ALTHOUGH we've seen that she was LEAGUES above Priscilla.
Fact 4
Irene corrected herself after she saw Teresa's power and said that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color. I.e. Irene admitted that what she said ("I suspect Priscilla's latent abilities are even greater than Teresa's" and "Priscilla will surpass Teresa") was worth shit. Irene was surprised by Teresa's strength several times after she said that. She didn't even know how strong she was before she released any youki and when she saw her with golden eyes she pissed her pants.

Fact 5
Irene said that "Priscilla will surpass Teresa" at the end of chapter 18. Now you're probably wondering why am I even stating this fact? Well, Claymore is a monthly shounen series. When people read this just after it was published they were in uncertainty whether Teresa can survive this or not. It was all done so that it wouldn't be obvious who would win. The same goes for Teresa's statement. If she said: "Pfft! You're no match for me, you're like 53.22%" it would spoil all the suspense.

Fact 6
Teresa wanted to kill Priscilla at first but that doesn't mean she thought Priscilla could become stronger than her. Would you choose to get rid of hornet's nest before it was complete or after? Of course it would be easier to do it before it was complete but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to get rid of it after it was complete. You would have harder job to do and probably had to call fire brigade or other specialists so the rational thing to do would be to take care of it earlier. The thing was Teresa would need to take life not of a primitive vermin but a human being.

Fact 7
Teresa herself said that Priscilla can come after her as many times she wants, she would strike her down every time. Note that it was after Priscilla released her powers and after Teresa said: "I may be able..."

Fact 8
Teresa also said (after Priscilla released more than 30% of her youki) that she has no chances of winning. Again she negated what she said earlier.

Fact 9
Orsay said: "So she's known as Teresa of the faint smile... The strongest woman among those called Claymores. Heh. Maybe not the strongest woman, rather the strongest creature". If anyone from the Org knew Teresa it was her handler Orsay (he even expected she would rebel). At the time Priscilla was around and probably was #2 but still Orsay thought Teresa was the strongest (Between the moment Orsay said that and Teresa met Priscilla didn't elapse much time because we've seen Teresa's every single job after Orsay said that. And after Clare went after her about 3 days elapsed before they reached the village in the mountains. So in my estimation when Teresa met Priscilla no more than 2 weeks passed and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that it was half of that time.)

Fact 10

Irene wasn't killed by Priscilla even though she wanted to. Name it as you like, luck or no luck if Priscilla was that strong she should have killed Irene but somehow she didn't. One could think Priscilla wasn't that strong.

You're still saying that there is no reason to question her words?
There exist no facts that Priscilla could surpass Teresa contrary to what you're saying. Teresa didn't think that way (see: facts 1-3), Organization couldn't know that (explain to me how could they know that when they didn't even know how strong Teresa was?), Irene said that before even sensing their powers (and your stupidly ignoring the fact of sequence what Irene said). On the other hand we have empirical evidences that all suggest Teresa was stronger than Priscilla could ever be. And we have Irene that assessed Priscilla's full strength and yet she didn't tell Clare she doesn't stand a chance nor that Teresa didn't stand a chance.

Sorry, but you don't discuss with facts, it's just silly. The same goes for believing words over empirical evidences.

Quote:
Discussing with you is difficult since you always say things irrelevant to the discussion. Most of what's in that spoiler'd post is stuff I actually agree with.
Everything I wrote had relevance to Priscilla vs. Teresa battle which you started the moment you wrote: "Priscilla had potential to surpass Teresa". Since you didn't even bother to go to the posts I provided and read them, I had to repost them. And sorry but I'm too lazy to edit them so that they would fit exactly to your arguments. Reading all this would take you 5 minutes and writing wall of texts take much more time than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor View Post
Meaningless. I never even considered Rubel's words. Only Teresa's, and for a small part Irene's. I specifically said that Rubel's words were incorrect.
Well, you said that the Organization said Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa. Who exactly said that? Rubel. Or do you have data I don't? Because from what I remember if anything Organization always thought Teresa was the strongest.

Quote:
Sorry, but stats don't mean all that much to me. All they do is provide a scale with which we can measure warriors' individual capabilities. Especially when comparing warriors with Awakened Beings, they're largely unimportant.
You've mentioned the word "potential" several times. What is it then? You don't believe in stats but you believe that Priscilla had more potential than Teresa? I would think that someone that has the most room for stats improvement has potential to become the strongest. And if stats mean nothing then the whole debate "who's stronger" is meaningless. If we go your way of thinking even the weakest warrior can kill the strongest one but what does it prove? It doesn't mean he was the strongest, does it?

Quote:
Meaningless, and wrong. Once Priscilla Awakened, her mind was consumed and she became the Awakened Being Priscilla, the same one that butchered Irene, Noel and Sophia, and the one that defeated Rigardo and Isley. And we've already established a thousand times over that Teresa 10% is much stronger than Priscilla 80%.
I meant mentally different persons. I don't remember now who I was arguing with but that was relevant then. Like I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts that I directed you to go I wouldn't have to repost them here. And since you were too lazy to do that, why should I lose time and edit my posts so that they would fit to what you said? Seriously, you didn't have to quote my statements if all you had to say was "meaningless".

Quote:
No, but I believe Teresa when she said that Priscilla could be trouble in the future.
Let's go back and see what you wrote:
"As long as Irene, the Organization, and Teresa herself said Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa".
Earlier you stated that you don't believe Rubel's words but you believe the Org's words (and how did we know what the Org was thinking about Priscilla? Thanks to Rubel ) now you're saying that you don't believe Irene's words but earlier you indirectly said that she's a credible source of information about Priscilla's potential.

Quote:
When Teresa released 10% of her Yoki, there was no mayhem and destruction, just some warriors being wtf'd at her power. And Teresa considered killing Priscilla even after she released her Yoki - that, more than anything else, pretty much establishes that Priscilla, sometime, alone or with help, would pose a threat to Teresa.
Do you remember the fight Luciella vs. Isley? They were in deserted area so that they wouldn't cause any significant damages. Even in human forms they changed the topography of the area and when they changed to their humongous forms it was even worse. Now what would happen if Teresa released 50% of her youki and fought awakened Priscilla? It would be like a nuclear war and the damages would be at least two times bigger (but it was probably more than that because power claymore's power doesn't increase linearly). Why then wait until then if you could prevent all that, huh? Why make things harder? I don't know, maybe you would be so unreasonable and wait but people are lazy by nature and everything that makes things easier is more logical.

Quote:
Teresa told the bandits they were lower than Yoma. On the other hand, Priscilla reminded her of Clare. Teresa had become soft. It wasn't that she refuted her earlier statement, just that she spared Priscilla's life. If Teresa hid her Yoki carefully, there was no way they could track her down anyway.
Heh, Priscilla wanted to kill her, if Teresa wanted to be with Clare (and we know she did) by not killing someone that could become stronger than her she would shit on Clare because even though she could prevent Clare's another break down she would choose not to because a life of some crazy girl would be more important to her. And it may be that Priscilla reminded her of Clare (although I doubt it because if Yagi wanted to state that, he could write: "Why does she remind me of Clare?") but if we take these words literally, in that kind of situation she recalled her happy memories (i.e. the ones with Clare) and from ruthless professional she changed into a mother. The fact that it was all over, triggered that, Teresa felt safe then and wanted to unite with Clare ASAP.
As for becoming soft, I agree but I doubt that in less than a month she would change her personality 180 degrees and wouldn't kill anyone even if it meant her death or Clare's despair. She knew Priscilla was only obeying orders and she was her fellow comrade so she spared her but if she considered her as someone with better potential than her I would bet she wouldn't. She would have a choice then: kill her or be killed and break Clare's heart. Tough choice.
Concerning hiding youki: as Teresa said, Irene wasn't someone that could be fooled easily (as we've seen, one look at Priscilla sufficed to know that she was no match to her, Noel and Sophia needed empirical evidences for that also Irene sensed Teresa in Clare). She would have to hide her youki much longer than few days or even weeks. And Teresa was a special case. She was "the most powerful creature" and I wouldn't be surprised if she could never hide her youki.

Quote:
She was talking to Irene, and it was meant as a discouragement anyway. If Priscilla reached her full potential (which there were no guarantees it would happen, warriors die or lose themselves all the time), Teresa was still worried. Nothing she ever said contradicts that. (...)
Yeah, she was talking to Irene and in the next panel we've seen Priscilla not Irene. That definitely makes sense. And in English word "you"="Irene". What's more Irene said: "Teresa only wounded us because she knows we'll never be a match for her" and Teresa would direct those words to THAT Irene? Let's take it further, she was talking to the blonde guy staring at her.
Now when we have this resolved, "You can come after me as many times as you want. I'll cut you down every time" negates her earlier statement.

Quote:
No, she sensed Priscilla after she Awakened. I will use an extraordinarily basic, very simple numerical example to demonstrate my thoughts. (...)
"after she released her latent abilities"=after she awakened
Everything you wrote in this paragraph has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was talking about Irene's assessment of Priscilla's strength. The fact is, by awakening claymore's have access to 100% of their strength and unleash their potential. There is no doubt Irene sensed Priscilla at 100%. Even if we assume that she hasn't reached her maximum potential it was a good estimation of her strength. Somehow she didn't warn Clare that she doesn't stand a chance and stated that there WAS a warrior who could stop Priscilla (I wonder who she had in mind?).

Quote:
That's the strongest argument? That's hardly an argument. Irene saw Priscilla fighting relatively closely to Teresa. Then Priscilla went to 80%, which by all logic should have allowed her to eliminate a "close" gap. Then Teresa defies all logic and beats her down with just 10% of her Yoki. Nothing about potential there.
Potential - currently unfulfilled capacity to improve, develop, and achieve impressive feats.
If Teresa could easily defeat 80% Priscilla using only 10% of her powers then who do you think had more capacity to improve? The function by which we could approximate Priscilla's power increase would have to be really bizarre (it wouldn't be even exponential growth because claymore's powers are not infinite) and Teresa's too (it would have to be constant at some moment or close to logarithm).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor View Post
Hmm, that is a ridiculously flawed statement. The damage Teresa can deal is limited by what her sword can do. If she strikes an enemy at a non-lethal spot, no matter how much power she uses the injury will still be non-lethal.
THAT was a retarded statement. Now you're just agreeing to what I wrote the first time, i.e.
I've always stated that Teresa was adjusting her strength to her opponent's level and that was the reason Irene thought that she was quicker. Now that I've reread first volumes I can support that with another fact. When five warriors were sent to kill her she only wounded them enough to immobilize them but not enough to kill them. Now that requires amazing skills and control of her own strength even more so, since she had humongous strength. Her twist alone could tear abyssals!

(even though you said at first it was a stretch that Teresa had to control her strength) by agreeing that "all Teresa had to do was to stop the sword" and saying that "Teresa is much stronger and faster than Irene". The first quoted sentence means that Teresa had to control her motions and strength to stop the sword (otherwise it would go deeper than she wanted) and because she was much stronger and faster it required that much more strength to stop it.

Quote:
If it's a Yoki flow, Teresa can read it. If it moves, Teresa can perceive it. If it's a Yoki-filled arm that moves, Teresa can read and perceive it. If she can think fast, she can counter it. If she can move that fast, she must be able to think that fast, else she would just be slicing randomly. If she can match the Quicksword, she can move that fast, therefore she can think that fast, therefore she can sense the Quicksword.
Here's where you're wrong: the fact that Teresa can move fast enough doesn't mean she can use her pre-emptive youki sensing (PYS in short) fast enough. I'm not saying she can't think fast enough (you can quote where I said that because I believe I didn't, I'm saying she can't use her PRE-EMPTIVE YOUKI SENSING fast enough because it's a skill that requires to analyse every attack). Preemptive youki sensing is more complicated than "think what move to do". It's not immediate, you have to recognize the attack and prepare to it. And there is another thing, in quicksword youki flows always at maximum and the arm is fully charged the whole time. We have yet to see Teresa or Clare dodging only an arm of an Awakened. Preemptive youki sensing could allow to discern right/left hand attack and approximate direction of an attack but at POINT BLANK RANGE an incessant BARRAGE of attacks... That's just your assumption. It's on entirely different level than dodging Rigald's claws or knowing that Noel will attack from behind. So IMO Teresa countered Irene's moves thanks to her reflexes and instincts and not PYS.

Quote:
When, when did I ever say that "all" Teresa had was Yoki sensing? Don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I never said you said that. As I've written earlier I just ctrl+c, ctrl+v my earlier posts because you wouldn't bother to read them and I didn't bother to edit them. Simple as that.

Quote:
Read my previous post. I never said having high analytical capacity for battle renders the Claymores supercomputers. I just said it enables them to react to attacks that would normally not be possible to react to with human speed. That requires for the brain to work, it's not instinct. Therefore, when battle is concerned, Claymores can think and analyze situations much faster than humans. That's really all there is to it.
When you react your brain sends a signal but when you want to analyse an attack and then send a signal it lasts longer.

Quote:
The Quicksword is fast, but if it's within Teresa's analytical capability, it's well within the range of what she can perceive with her senses. Since we see Teresa demonstrate speed even to Irene's Quicksword, that becomes more or less a certainty, unless you claim that Teresa can't even catch up with her own movements (which is ridiculous, since just before you said she'd have to have excellent control in order to avoid cutting her enemies to pieces). Teresa's senses are better than her natural perception, of course.
Yeah, if. But nothing indicates that. Give me an example where PYS was used in situations other than ranged attacks or avoiding sneak attack.

There are too many problems when it comes to using it against Irene. IMO what allowed Teresa to dominate Irene were super reflexes, motion sensing and quick thinking. PYS however requires more than that and in case of quicksword there are several additional problems:
1) You have to analyse every single move and what's worse you have thousands of such moves and every is distinctive.
2) You would need enough capacity of memory to analyse thousands of motions. Otherwise you would have to delete information every time ( that would further slow down your reaction) because you would still remember the wrong attack and you would be prepared improperly.
3) even if you could see the move and know where it would come you would still have to prepare for it
4) There would be problem with concentration too. You would need extreme one to not get used to one sequence of attacks (Let's say you're sparring with someone and you know that every second move there would be a left/right hook (and only such hits). If after quite a long time you would decide to change the sequence (from left/right to right/left) there would be high chance that you would be so used to the earlier sequence that the first hit you wouldn't dodge). Somehow Teresa wasn't wounded even once.
5) even if Teresa knew all that she would still have to know where to stand and at what angle hold her sword
6) It would be one thing to deflect/dodge attacks, but to go into offensive would require even more skill

You're assuming that all this was possible for Teresa, I'm of the opinion that in this case she didn't use it, only her reflexes, motion sensing and quick thinking.

Quote:
That's just baseless. Just as you can perceive slower attacks from wide angles, you can perceive faster attacks from narrow angles if you're equipped to do it. Teresa was. When a Yoki-filled arm moves, and you have a) senses that can read the Yoki flows even in the opponents body b) reflexes to analyze the conclusions drawn from your senses in the miniscule amount of time between the attacks and c) speed and strength to match them, you can read its movement, react to it, and repel it. Teresa had all those things, and was able to read and repel it.
No it's not baseless. In fact your assumptions are baseless. We explicitly know that PYS was used in Slasher's arc and in Pieta's arc and maybe when Teresa was fighting 5 warriors at once (so she wouldn't be stabbed in the back). But do we know it was used in other cases? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor
Hmm? It was stated that the main problem for humans is that they can't find the Yoma. Once the Yoma is found, the humans can deal with him. Not one-on-one, in most cases, but they can.
But you wrote earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor
Since Yoki comes from the Yoma who are by nature simply predators who only know how to kill and feed, increasing only battle prowess is not a coincidence, it's a logical consequence.
They wouldn't require super-battle-thinking so that they could kill humans who are AFAWK their only sustenance. So it's not logical consequence they would be equipped with that. Claws and fangs are but why would they need super thinking if even humans could keep up with their moves?

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No, it's a matter of mental reaction. An Awakened body requires an Awakened mind, and cannot be controlled by a human mind. Only insane willpower can manage that feat, like Irene's when she mastered her Quicksword. Once Clare got used to it, she began trying to thwart her motion by slamming her hand into the ground. And Rigardo said Clare managed to bring her speed under control, but in that panel her arm was still human.
Mental, yes, reaction, no. It requires concentration and the spiritual strength but not faster thought process like you said and I was replying to that:
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Originally Posted by Slash_Emperor View Post
Unlike humans Claymores obviously have much faster thought process when it comes to battle, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep up with their bodies or the enemies, like Clare when she Awakened her legs.
Besides, we haven't seen her palm (it could may as well be awakened) and we see in the second panel after Rigaldo said: "How did she bring her speed under control", that Clare had already awakened her arm. Sure, concentration was also required but mainly to maintain that form. It was thanks to her arm that she could stop. And you still didn't explain how could Clare start and rush any time she wanted but couldn't stop?


@Kikaifan
If you were talking to me too (although I never stated that 10% is 7 times stronger than 70%, just that it was stronger which was the case), I'm perfectly aware that youki percentages aren't explicit evidences of Claymore's power or potential. Kinematics made an interesting post concerning that long ago.
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Old 2009-08-12, 06:52   Link #2557
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Slash

Fact 1
Teresa didn't say that Priscilla had the potential to surpass her.
Fact 2
Teresa didn't say that she can lose to her.
Fact 3
Teresa had doubts she may win (not in the future but at the moment) ALTHOUGH we've seen that she was LEAGUES above Priscilla.
The third is just your own opinion, don't state it alongside textual fact like they're the same.

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Fact 4
Irene corrected herself after she saw Teresa's power and said that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color. I.e. Irene admitted that what she said ("I suspect Priscilla's latent abilities are even greater than Teresa's" and "Priscilla will surpass Teresa") was worth shit. Irene was surprised by Teresa's strength several times after she said that. She didn't even know how strong she was before she released any youki and when she saw her with golden eyes she pissed her pants.
Again, if you want to be taken seriously don't start out a statement with a nice bold Fact and then insert a bunch of your opinion. And you're wrong here, Irene isn't surprised at Teresa's youki or power in any physical sense, she's surprised by her skill.

Irene asks who can stop Priscilla at her current level of release, and there's no reason to ask that question if Teresa's power is the same or greater than Priscilla's; Irene can sense youki like any other warrior so it would be obvious to her if that were the case. The question clearly implies that Priscilla is far more powerful at that point; she's surprised when Teresa wins the fight precisely because Teresa wins by skill despite Priscilla's huge power advantage. Again for clarity: If Teresa was releasing a huge amount of youki that matched or exceeded Priscilla, Irene would have been surprised when she first sensed it or at Teresa's undistorted appearance but there would have been no reason for her to be surprised at the outcome of the fight, which would have been easy to predict (she knew Priscilla was currently less skilled than Teresa from the beginning). Yet she believes that Teresa can't win based on her (Irene's) sense of the combatants' energies and is surprised when Teresa wins out. Irene is surprised because Teresa wins using a smaller power.

This supports your view that Irene did not understand the extent or Teresa's ability when she said Priscilla could surpass her, but it does away with the notion that Teresa has an enormous advantage in raw power over Priscilla. It just comes down to skill, which is precisely what everyone was already aware Priscilla was lacking.

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Fact 5
Irene said that "Priscilla will surpass Teresa" at the end of chapter 18. Now you're probably wondering why am I even stating this fact? Well, Claymore is a monthly shounen series. When people read this just after it was published they were in uncertainty whether Teresa can survive this or not. It was all done so that it wouldn't be obvious who would win. The same goes for Teresa's statement. If she said: "Pfft! You're no match for me, you're like 53.22%" it would spoil all the suspense.
We already know that Irene's knowledge isn't perfect, there's no need to appeal to author intent for the statement to be potentially false.

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Fact 6
Teresa wanted to kill Priscilla at first but that doesn't mean she thought Priscilla could become stronger than her. Would you choose to get rid of hornet's nest before it was complete or after? Of course it would be easier to do it before it was complete but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to get rid of it after it was complete. You would have harder job to do and probably had to call fire brigade or other specialists so the rational thing to do would be to take care of it earlier. The thing was Teresa would need to take life not of a primitive vermin but a human being.
Irene's explanation is more compelling than yours. The other warriors were far weaker than her but they were still a definite nuisance, and in fact at the time they were arguably stronger than Priscilla; there are plenty of reaction shots during the fight where Teresa looks surprised, annoyed, or stressed. Fighting them isn't exactly a walk in the park for her. Your explanation would demand that her behavior towards all of them be the same. Yet she singles out Priscilla.

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Fact 7
Teresa herself said that Priscilla can come after her as many times she wants, she would strike her down every time. Note that it was after Priscilla released her powers and after Teresa said: "I may be able..."
Note that her confidence was misplaced. Letting Priscilla live was in fact her critical mistake.

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Fact 8
Teresa also said (after Priscilla released more than 30% of her youki) that she has no chances of winning. Again she negated what she said earlier.
Uh, she said as things stand now, which implies that she thinks there's a good chance they'll be different later.

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Fact 9
Orsay said: "So she's known as Teresa of the faint smile... The strongest woman among those called Claymores. Heh. Maybe not the strongest woman, rather the strongest creature". If anyone from the Org knew Teresa it was her handler Orsay (he even expected she would rebel). At the time Priscilla was around and probably was #2 but still Orsay thought Teresa was the strongest (Between the moment Orsay said that and Teresa met Priscilla didn't elapse much time because we've seen Teresa's every single job after Orsay said that. And after Clare went after her about 3 days elapsed before they reached the village in the mountains. So in my estimation when Teresa met Priscilla no more than 2 weeks passed and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that it was half of that time.)
Well, not just Orsay but the entire Organization still thought that Teresa was the strongest because she still had her #1 rank.

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Fact 10
Irene wasn't killed by Priscilla even though she wanted to. Name it as you like, luck or no luck if Priscilla was that strong she should have killed Irene but somehow she didn't. One could think Priscilla wasn't that strong.
That's like say saying a tank isn't very powerful because it can shoot at a civilian car with a sabot and the round can go straight through the cab without hitting the engine.

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@Kikaifan
If you were talking to me too (although I never stated that 10% is 7 times stronger than 70%, just that it was stronger which was the case), I'm perfectly aware that youki percentages aren't explicit evidences of Claymore's power or potential. Kinematics made an interesting post concerning that long ago.
Hmm, the speculation on how it affects Awakening is pretty interesting...
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Old 2009-08-12, 07:01   Link #2558
Slash_Emperor
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Alright, first of all, if you doubt that 70% of something is 7 times more than 10% of something, please say it now so I can blatantly ignore all your future arguments and continue the discussion with people who actually have some degree of common sense. We're talking about Yoki here, energy which is a countable item, not overall combat capacity (which is not countable anyway).

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Slash

Fact 1
Teresa didn't say that Priscilla had the potential to surpass her.
Fact 2
Teresa didn't say that she can lose to her.
Fact 3
Teresa had doubts she may win (not in the future but at the moment) ALTHOUGH we've seen that she was LEAGUES above Priscilla.
Fact 4
Irene corrected herself after she saw Teresa's power and said that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color. I.e. Irene admitted that what she said ("I suspect Priscilla's latent abilities are even greater than Teresa's" and "Priscilla will surpass Teresa") was worth shit. Irene was surprised by Teresa's strength several times after she said that. She didn't even know how strong she was before she released any youki and when she saw her with golden eyes she pissed her pants.

Fact 5
Irene said that "Priscilla will surpass Teresa" at the end of chapter 18. Now you're probably wondering why am I even stating this fact? Well, Claymore is a monthly shounen series. When people read this just after it was published they were in uncertainty whether Teresa can survive this or not. It was all done so that it wouldn't be obvious who would win. The same goes for Teresa's statement. If she said: "Pfft! You're no match for me, you're like 53.22%" it would spoil all the suspense.

Fact 6
Teresa wanted to kill Priscilla at first but that doesn't mean she thought Priscilla could become stronger than her. Would you choose to get rid of hornet's nest before it was complete or after? Of course it would be easier to do it before it was complete but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to get rid of it after it was complete. You would have harder job to do and probably had to call fire brigade or other specialists so the rational thing to do would be to take care of it earlier. The thing was Teresa would need to take life not of a primitive vermin but a human being.

Fact 7
Teresa herself said that Priscilla can come after her as many times she wants, she would strike her down every time. Note that it was after Priscilla released her powers and after Teresa said: "I may be able..."

Fact 8
Teresa also said (after Priscilla released more than 30% of her youki) that she has no chances of winning. Again she negated what she said earlier.

Fact 9
Orsay said: "So she's known as Teresa of the faint smile... The strongest woman among those called Claymores. Heh. Maybe not the strongest woman, rather the strongest creature". If anyone from the Org knew Teresa it was her handler Orsay (he even expected she would rebel). At the time Priscilla was around and probably was #2 but still Orsay thought Teresa was the strongest (Between the moment Orsay said that and Teresa met Priscilla didn't elapse much time because we've seen Teresa's every single job after Orsay said that. And after Clare went after her about 3 days elapsed before they reached the village in the mountains. So in my estimation when Teresa met Priscilla no more than 2 weeks passed and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume that it was half of that time.)

Fact 10

Irene wasn't killed by Priscilla even though she wanted to. Name it as you like, luck or no luck if Priscilla was that strong she should have killed Irene but somehow she didn't. One could think Priscilla wasn't that strong.
"Fact 1" & "Fact 2": "This girl's potential is that of a monster's. I may be able to beat her now, but who knows about next time." = "Hey, I'm stronger than that bitch now, but if she trains and comes at me again, I might be screwed." So Teresa acknowledged both the possibility of Priscilla surpassing her in the future, and the possibility of her losing if Priscilla did reach that level.

"Fact 3": Didn't we already move past this? Teresa had no doubts she might win, end of story. Don't bring up defeated arguments if you have nothing else to say.

"Fact 4": Irene was surprised about Teresa's strength compared to Priscilla's 80% release state. Irrelevant to potential.

"Fact 5": Oh yeah, that makes tons of sense. So Teresa began sprouting bullshit about her own strength relevant to Priscilla's potential strength, both of whom were completely within her comprehension, to keep us readers on our toes. Lol.

"Fact 6": That was exactly what the thing was, and not related to Priscilla's potential being lower than Teresa's strength. Teresa spared Priscilla out of humanity, not because she changed her mind about her potential.

"Fact 7": It was after, but in-between, nothing had happened that would logically make Teresa change her opinion. So it was a change in attitude, not estimation of Priscilla's potential.

"Fact 8": Again, this referred to the current state of Priscilla, not her potential.

"Fact 9": Oh my god. First you tell me not to count the Organization's views, then you present them as your argument? For crying out loud. You're ridiculous. Orsay was referring to the warriors as they are now, obviously, not as they might become in the future.

"Fact 10": Priscilla was just randomly attacking. If Irene was brought to a near-death condition and Priscilla considered her dead, that's just random luck, not related to ability at all.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
You're still saying that there is no reason to question her words?
There exist no facts that Priscilla could surpass Teresa contrary to what you're saying. Teresa didn't think that way (see: facts 1-3), Organization couldn't know that (explain to me how could they know that when they didn't even know how strong Teresa was?), Irene said that before even sensing their powers (and your stupidly ignoring the fact of sequence what Irene said). On the other hand we have empirical evidences that all suggest Teresa was stronger than Priscilla could ever be. And we have Irene that assessed Priscilla's full strength and yet she didn't tell Clare she doesn't stand a chance nor that Teresa didn't stand a chance.
1) The Organization said that Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa. That statement was never refuted.
2) Irene said that Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa. That statement was never refuted, even after Irene sensed Teresa's true strength.
3) Teresa said that Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa. That statement was also never refuted.

Why would all these people state that and never claim they were wrong if this wasn't the case? Even if the Organization was wrong, even if Irene was wrong, how can Teresa be wrong when she had a perfect grasp on both her and Priscilla's capacities? Teresa considered Priscilla a future threat - if Priscilla always remained on a level she could be defeated by Teresa, Teresa could retaliate by suppressing her Yoki like Priscilla does, and the moment she attacks she could snipe her instantly, then deal with the rest of the warriors - or do it the other way around. Without Priscilla being stronger than Teresa, the Organization had no hopes of killing Teresa whatsoever, and Teresa had no reason to worry.

Sorry, but you don't discuss with facts, it's just silly. The same goes for believing words over empirical evidences.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Everything I wrote had relevance to Priscilla vs. Teresa battle which you started the moment you wrote: "Priscilla had potential to surpass Teresa". Since you didn't even bother to go to the posts I provided and read them, I had to repost them. And sorry but I'm too lazy to edit them so that they would fit exactly to your arguments. Reading all this would take you 5 minutes and writing wall of texts take much more time than that.
I'm the one writing walls of text. You're just quoting irrelevant old posts without even having the decency to stress out those points that relate to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Well, you said that the Organization said Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa. Who exactly said that? Rubel. Or do you have data I don't? Because from what I remember if anything Organization always thought Teresa was the strongest.
I ALWAYS mentioned the Organization's thoughts as an afterthought. Something like, "TERESA said it, so it must be true, but even if that's not enough to get it through to your thick skull, Irene also said it without ever changing her mind, and even if THAT is not enough, the Organization ALSO said it."

And for whatever reasons, the Organization seems to have a perfectly good grasp on what their warriors are capable of. That might not apply to Teresa's case, but I won't completely erase their words just because they can't sense Yoki themselves.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
You've mentioned the word "potential" several times. What is it then? You don't believe in stats but you believe that Priscilla had more potential than Teresa? I would think that someone that has the most room for stats improvement has potential to become the strongest. And if stats mean nothing then the whole debate "who's stronger" is meaningless. If we go your way of thinking even the weakest warrior can kill the strongest one but what does it prove? It doesn't mean he was the strongest, does it?
Stats don't matter much because the most important thing is affinity. Even a weak and slow warrior with pre-emptive Yoki sensing can fight against a much greater opponent and win. A defensive warrior can deliberately take wounds in order to kill a stronger offensive warrior. Against someone with Yoki manipulation, if you don't have an understanding of what's going on, you can be killed before you know it.

That's why I'll never use stats to compare Teresa to others, since she is basically on a whole other league by herself thanks to her potent sensing.

Of course, Priscilla had more potential. Teresa had already reached her potential, she was already at her prime, so while Priscilla would continue to improve, Teresa would remain static. You're basing the fact that that undefined limit of Priscilla's strength should be lower than Teresa's just on the fact that Teresa's strength was higher than Irene who originally stated it expected, but it was Teresa herself who said Priscilla could surpass her, a statement which you claim she refuted because she spared Priscilla.

You should also understand that there is a really small likelihood a warrior will ever reach their true potential, especially an unstable warrior like Priscilla. So there wasn't too much cause for concern either way.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I meant mentally different persons. I don't remember now who I was arguing with but that was relevant then. Like I said earlier, if you bothered to read my posts that I directed you to go I wouldn't have to repost them here. And since you were too lazy to do that, why should I lose time and edit my posts so that they would fit to what you said? Seriously, you didn't have to quote my statements if all you had to say was "meaningless".


Let's go back and see what you wrote:
"As long as Irene, the Organization, and Teresa herself said Priscilla could become stronger than Teresa".
Earlier you stated that you don't believe Rubel's words but you believe the Org's words (and how did we know what the Org was thinking about Priscilla? Thanks to Rubel ) now you're saying that you don't believe Irene's words but earlier you indirectly said that she's a credible source of information about Priscilla's potential.
"I don't base my arguments on" isn't the same as "I don't believe". I wouldn't ever, ever say Priscilla had greater potential than Teresa if I only had Rubel's words to go with. But since both Teresa and Irene said it, Rubel's words are used as a back-up - as in, why have so many people claim something that is untrue?

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Do you remember the fight Luciella vs. Isley? They were in deserted area so that they wouldn't cause any significant damages. Even in human forms they changed the topography of the area and when they changed to their humongous forms it was even worse. Now what would happen if Teresa released 50% of her youki and fought awakened Priscilla? It would be like a nuclear war and the damages would be at least two times bigger (but it was probably more than that because power claymore's power doesn't increase linearly). Why then wait until then if you could prevent all that, huh? Why make things harder? I don't know, maybe you would be so unreasonable and wait but people are lazy by nature and everything that makes things easier is more logical.
So 10% Teresa vs 80% Priscilla didn't really cause any damage to the landscape beside some cracked rocks and stuff, but if Priscilla got stronger (still weaker than Teresa though, according to you), the damage would somehow increase?

Luciela and Isley fought with stuff that were designed for much larger scale destruction. Teresa and Priscilla fought, and would continue to fight, with big swords.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Heh, Priscilla wanted to kill her, if Teresa wanted to be with Clare (and we know she did by not killing someone that could become stronger than her she would shit on Clare because even though she could prevent Clare's another break down she would choose not to because a life of some crazy girl would be more important to her. And it may be that Priscilla reminded her of Clare (although I doubt it because if Yagi wanted to state that, he could write: "Why does she remind me of Clare?") but if we take these words literally, in that kind of situation she recalled her happy memories (i.e. the ones with Clare) and from ruthless professional she changed into a mother. The fact that it was all over, triggered that, Teresa felt safe then and wanted to unite with Clare ASAP.
As for becoming soft, I agree but I doubt that in less than a month she would change her personality 180 degrees and wouldn't kill anyone even if it meant her death or Clare's despair. She knew Priscilla was only obeying orders and she was her fellow comrade so she spared her but if she considered her as someone with better potential than her I would bet she wouldn't. She would have a choice then: kill her or be killed and break Clare's heart. Tough choice.
I already said. Between Priscilla dying or losing herself, the Organization sending her again before she was prepared, and Teresa reaching a complete mastery of Yoki suppression before Priscilla was ready, the odds that Priscilla would actually come again with the power to beat Teresa are actually extremely slim to none, even if Priscilla might eventually become stronger than her. Teresa wouldn't want to sacrifice her regained humanity by murdering a defenseless individual just for that slim chance.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Concerning hiding youki: as Teresa said, Irene wasn't someone that could be fooled easily (as we've seen, one look at Priscilla sufficed to know that she was no match to her, Noel and Sophia needed empirical evidences for that also Irene sensed Teresa in Clare). She would have to hide her youki much longer than few days or even weeks. And Teresa was a special case. She was "the most powerful creature" and I wouldn't be surprised if she could never hide her youki.
In a few days or weeks, Priscilla wouldn't suddenly jump to Teresa's level. It would take at least a few years, in which time Teresa could learn to completely erase her Yoki, like Rafaela, who went up to Irene without being sensed. Power doesn't relate to it, there is no evidence there - even very powerful warriors can hide their Yoki completely. Just because Teresa is a step ahead doesn't suddenly change that with no other basis whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yeah, she was talking to Irene and in the next panel we've seen Priscilla not Irene. That definitely makes sense. And in English word "you"="Irene". What's more Irene said: "Teresa only wounded us because she knows we'll never be a match for her" and Teresa would direct those words to THAT Irene? Let's take it further, she was talking to the blonde guy staring at her.
Now when we have this resolved, "You can come after me as many times as you want. I'll cut you down every time" negates her earlier statement.
No, because nothing happened in-between to justify that change in opinion. It was just meant as a discouragement. Teresa already acknowledged Priscilla's capacity to surpass her, and never altered that view. Teresa simply decided to spare Priscilla's life due to the reasons mentioned above, and let the warriors go, claiming there's no reason to worry because after all, by the time Priscilla became stronger than Teresa, the odds of them tracking her down would be ridiculously low.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
"after she released her latent abilities"=after she awakened
Everything you wrote in this paragraph has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was talking about Irene's assessment of Priscilla's strength. The fact is, by awakening claymore's have access to 100% of their strength and unleash their potential. There is no doubt Irene sensed Priscilla at 100%. Even if we assume that she hasn't reached her maximum potential it was a good estimation of her strength. Somehow she didn't warn Clare that she doesn't stand a chance and stated that there WAS a warrior who could stop Priscilla (I wonder who she had in mind?).
No, Awakening releases all the Yoki they have inside them at the moment, and grants them certain abilities based on the form they take. Priscilla could become physically stronger and faster and more durable, and could probably even increase her Yoki (as we've seen Clare do). A later Awakening would reflect that improvement. Her Awakening just meant the full power of her current state. Just because Rubel said it was like she unleashed all her potential when she Awakened (which I see now you're conveniently accepting as a basis for your flawed argument) doesn't mean it's true, especially when what he said makes much more sense when interpreted in the way I stated before, which is a fully acceptable, logically infallible interpretation. And of course, Teresa could stop Awakened Priscilla if she tried, because if at 10% she was able to handle 80% of Priscilla's Yoki release, it wouldn't take more than 30-50% to butcher 100% release even with the Awakening boons. Don't you see? Everything everyone says in the manga supports my argument. All you have for yours are empty interpretations and flawed logic.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Potential - currently unfulfilled capacity to improve, develop, and achieve impressive feats.
If Teresa could easily defeat 80% Priscilla using only 10% of her powers then who do you think had more capacity to improve? The function by which we could approximate Priscilla's power increase would have to be really bizarre (it wouldn't be even exponential growth because claymore's powers are not infinite) and Teresa's too (it would have to be constant at some moment or close to logarithm).
Do you even understand what you're saying, or are you just spouting nonsense in the hopes that I'll grow so desperate from arguing with you that I'll say "alright, fine, whatever, believe what you want, I don't care"? Bullshit. Teresa had already improved as much as she could. Priscilla was at like... 1% or whatever. Of course Priscilla could easily become stronger than Teresa was right then. There's no question regarding the possibility, and you're really hard-pressed to find arguments against the full validity as well.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
THAT was a retarded statement. Now you're just agreeing to what I wrote the first time, i.e.
I've always stated that Teresa was adjusting her strength to her opponent's level and that was the reason Irene thought that she was quicker. Now that I've reread first volumes I can support that with another fact. When five warriors were sent to kill her she only wounded them enough to immobilize them but not enough to kill them. Now that requires amazing skills and control of her own strength even more so, since she had humongous strength. Her twist alone could tear abyssals!

(even though you said at first it was a stretch that Teresa had to control her strength) by agreeing that "all Teresa had to do was to stop the sword" and saying that "Teresa is much stronger and faster than Irene". The first quoted sentence means that Teresa had to control her motions and strength to stop the sword (otherwise it would go deeper than she wanted) and because she was much stronger and faster it required that much more strength to stop it.
So... I'm just agreeing to something I always agreed with without ever questioning. Teresa does, in fact, only fight as much as is needed to beat her enemies. That much is obvious.

But what you're saying, is just because Teresa is stronger, she needs expotential control in order not to kill the people she attacks. That is wrong. Because if you're that strong, and that skilled, whatever you want to do happens, and there's nothing to control or stop. Teresa doesn't need to exert effort to stop her sword from cutting the enemy in half, so any discussion about control is meaningless.

And again... why are you bringing this up? I already explained to you the part of your statement that was wrong, and the part that was correct.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Here's where you're wrong: the fact that Teresa can move fast enough doesn't mean she can use her pre-emptive youki sensing (PYS in short) fast enough. I'm not saying she can't think fast enough (you can quote where I said that because I believe I didn't, I'm saying she can't use her PRE-EMPTIVE YOUKI SENSING fast enough because it's a skill that requires to analyse every attack). Preemptive youki sensing is more complicated than "think what move to do". It's not immediate, you have to recognize the attack and prepare to it. And there is another thing, in quicksword youki flows always at maximum and the arm is fully charged the whole time. We have yet to see Teresa or Clare dodging only an arm of an Awakened. Preemptive youki sensing could allow to discern right/left hand attack and approximate direction of an attack but at POINT BLANK RANGE an incessant BARRAGE of attacks... That's just your assumption. It's on entirely different level than dodging Rigald's claws or knowing that Noel will attack from behind. So IMO Teresa countered Irene's moves thanks to her reflexes and instincts and not PYS.
So my assumption that Yoki sensing can be used to sense the movements of a Yoki-filled arm is less valid than your assumption that... it can't.

I won't say anything more about this. I'm correct, and you're wrong. I won't debate over a proven fact.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yeah, if. But nothing indicates that. Give me an example where PYS was used in situations other than ranged attacks or avoiding sneak attack.
For crying out loud. You make such a big deal about it. Preemptive Yoki sensing is actually just very advanced Yoki sensing. Yoki sensing is only restricted to things that use Yoki, it doesn't discriminate between them. Nothing in the manga ever questioned that view, so what I'm saying is the default logic - what you're saying, is a baseless assumption. I explained it countless of times, and Sagara gave an added analysis on the part - but basically, neither of us ever needed to, because the manga itself proves it.

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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
There are too many problems when it comes to using it against Irene. IMO what allowed Teresa to dominate Irene were super reflexes, motion sensing and quick thinking. PYS however requires more than that and in case of quicksword there are several additional problems:
1) You have to analyse every single move and what's worse you have thousands of such moves and every is distinctive.
2) You would need enough capacity of memory to analyse thousands of motions. Otherwise you would have to delete information every time ( that would further slow down your reaction) because you would still remember the wrong attack and you would be prepared improperly.
3) even if you could see the move and know where it would come you would still have to prepare for it
4) There would be problem with concentration too. You would need extreme one to not get used to one sequence of attacks (Let's say you're sparring with someone and you know that every second move there would be a left/right hook (and only such hits). If after quite a long time you would decide to change the sequence (from left/right to right/left) there would be high chance that you would be so used to the earlier sequence that the first hit you wouldn't dodge). Somehow Teresa wasn't wounded even once.
5) even if Teresa knew all that she would still have to know where to stand and at what angle hold her sword
6) It would be one thing to deflect/dodge attacks, but to go into offensive would require even more skill

You're assuming that all this was possible for Teresa, I'm of the opinion that in this case she didn't use it, only her reflexes, motion sensing and quick thinking.

No it's not baseless. In fact your assumptions are baseless. We explicitly know that PYS was used in Slasher's arc and in Pieta's arc and maybe when Teresa was fighting 5 warriors at once (so she wouldn't be stabbed in the back). But do we know it was used in other cases? No.
When saying all that, you're restricting Teresa to mundane human battle analytical capacity and combat evaluation ability. That's obviously wrong, so everything you just said would definitely be a problem for a human or a lesser being, but not for Teresa who can already surpass the Quicksword physically.

We know that it was Teresa's senses who truly made her unique in the Organization's chronicles. Irene expected Noel, Sophia and herself wouldn't be able to do anything to Teresa because of them. If Teresa suddenly beat them without relying on her senses, Irene would've realized it and expressed surprise. Of course, Teresa proved just how much better she was later, but not until after the initial skirmish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
They wouldn't require super-battle-thinking so that they could kill humans who are AFAWK their only sustenance. So it's not logical consequence they would be equipped with that. Claws and fangs are but why would they need super thinking if even humans could keep up with their moves?
They're designed to kill. Killer instinct, capacity to react to combat situations - all those are parts of the nature of Yoma. They're fairly limited, because they're undeveloped, because all they do is fight humans, who are below them. But Claymores are specifically trained to hone these abilities, and the proof lies in them being able to control their movements, which are thousands of times faster than what a human could ever do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Mental, yes, reaction, no. It requires concentration and the spiritual strength but not faster thought process like you said and I was replying to that:

Besides, we haven't seen her palm (it could may as well be awakened) and we see in the second panel after Rigaldo said: "How did she bring her speed under control", that Clare had already awakened her arm. Sure, concentration was also required but mainly to maintain that form. It was thanks to her arm that she could stop. And you still didn't explain how could Clare start and rush any time she wanted but couldn't stop?
Controlling her Awakened legs was the same for Clare as controlling her Quicksword. Clare could tell her legs "start", but then she didn't even have time to think "stop" before she was already crashing into some building far away. Clare could tell her arm "Awaken", but then it was on its own until she pulled it back. When she increased her mental capacity thanks to imitating Jeane's example in the Quicksword's case, and developing the resolve to defeat Rigardo in the second case (as well as allowing more of her body ot Awaken, as you said), she was able to control both.

I don't think we're even arguing something considerably different at all - just breaking down on the same points with slightly different interpretations, trying to convince the other of something he doesn't even have to be convinced about.

---------------

Then, so far, we've got -

Me: Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa.
You: Lolno, it can't be because Teresa was stronger than what the people who said that expected.
Me: Um, that doesn't have anything to do with potential.
You: Oh right, then it's because the sources were unreliable
Me: Teresa herself said it.
You: But Teresa didn't kill Priscilla.
Me: But that doesn't make Priscilla incapable of becoming stronger than her.
You: Um, but Irene implied Teresa could beat Awakened Priscilla.
Me: Yes but Awakened Priscilla is weaker than she would be if she had reached her full potential and then Awakened.
You: Lol, no. Awakening = releasing the full potential.
Me: No, Awakening = releasing the full power, potential is a different issue.

Alright, can we stop here? Look, everyone can form their own opinions on the manga, and if all humans interpreted the same things the same way the world would be boring. Even though I clearly think it's wrong, I'll accept you believing that Priscilla couldn't become stronger than Teresa, because I respect your individuality - but mostly because I want this endless war of text to end. Just say the same, and we can all go home happy.
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Old 2009-08-12, 07:21   Link #2559
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
The description is only referring Teresa's mastery of preemptive sensing. It does not mean without sensing youki in minuscule detail, you cannot get any information at all. Think about it. Reading minuscule details vs reading general flow only means you get more info vs less info. With less info, you can interpret less accurately what your opponent is going to do but you still have a limited read on them. It's not an all or nothing proposition. It would be comparable to Clare before she mastered preemptive sensing. It made Teresa no longer invulnerable but doesn't mean she gets no benefit out of it at all.

Preemptive sensing differs from normal youki reading not in how well you read the youki but in what you do after you read the youki. Galatea can read detailed youki flow just as well and possibly even better then Teresa, but she still does not possess preemptive sensing.
1.IMO without sensing it to the minuscule detail you get as much information out of it as deneve, helen, miria or another high ranking claymore would get out of it. Why do you think that normal claymores can not read the flow and can only get an aura?
to efficiently evade something like rigardo's nails you have to read the minuscule detail without it is useless and dangerous and not relieable anymore.
2.If blind galatea was better than even chibi teresa is more than questionable.
As long as you not using your exceptions(as always) it is clear that even chibi teresa was way superior to blind galatea in reading the flow to the minuscule detail.
Only your exception that rafaella wasn't already cloaked saves your day here.
But do you really think that rafaella released her yoki even once? It could be that she did nothing else than train fighting yokiless and suppress luciella. And we don't know how much time has passed after the incident and the meeting with teresa in the woods.
We only know that a soul-link claymore can probably erase her aura much faster than for example one of the ghosts before the timeskip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan
rene asks who can stop Priscilla at her current level of release, and there's no reason to ask that question if Teresa's power is the same or greater than Priscilla's; Irene can sense youki like any other warrior so it would be obvious to her if that were the case. The question clearly implies that Priscilla is far more powerful at that point; she's surprised when Teresa wins the fight precisely because Teresa wins by skill despite Priscilla's huge power advantage. Again for clarity: If Teresa was releasing a huge amount of youki that matched or exceeded Priscilla, Irene would have been surprised when she first sensed it or at Teresa's undistorted appearance but there would have been no reason for her to be surprised at the outcome of the fight, which would have been easy to predict (she knew Priscilla was currently less skilled than Teresa from the beginning). Yet she believes that Teresa can't win based on her (Irene's) sense of the combatants' energies and is surprised when Teresa wins out. Irene is surprised because Teresa wins using a smaller power.
That is your interpretation. I read in the manga that irene did not know which aura was the stronger one. So it could still be that teresa's aura was the stronger one.
Irene: Wait both auras have grown but one is far beyond the other. Whose is it? Source OM.
So why this question? It should be clear that priscilla who ran wild had the far greater aura. So why this unnecessary question?
Why did yagi not simply let her say: Priscilla's aura is far beyond teresa's but theresa has released her aura too? IMO this and the extra chapter let me came for myself to the conclusion that theresa was finally far stronger than priscilla. Think about the fact that teresa lied about rosemary. Teresa constantly tried to hide her real power.
IF rosemary was AO class all is proven BECAUSE she slaughtered with only 10-30% release her in a matter of seconds. Priscilla had at first even problems in her awakened form against isley. And again all your arguments are based on the exception of the rule that awakened number ones are AO class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikafain
It just comes down to skill, which is precisely what everyone was already aware Priscilla was lacking.
WHO was aware of that? Irene?
And form WHERE should teresa's superior skill come from. From fighting yoma and AB's which are nothing than cannon fodder for her. She probably did not train at all. Experience wise teresa was at the disadvantage. She fought against a motivated rookie who probably trained obsessively and was in a better shape than her. And this rookie was stealthed and made teresas greatest asset useless. So please don't talk about skill unless you can really bring arguments why teresa should have been more skilled.
And teresa's assumption that she could surpass her someday was made when she fought her stealthed. After she could measure her yoki and priscilla let the cat out of the bag teresa talked more confident. IF kinematics is right about that the yoki release boosts the power exponentially than teresa's statement about perhaps not being able to beat priscilla in the future means a shit and all comes down to the amount of yoki someone posseses or at least it is very debateable if a claymore can measure the potential of someone by fighting him only in a suppressed state.
Spoiler:

I will give you an example that it was probably not skill but mere speed that teresa used to beat priscilla:
Priscilla: What's going on, i suddenly slowed down. No she sped up.
If she would have used SKILL she would have moved more efficiently or in different ways. But she made only the basic swordplaymovements faster so it seemed to priscilla that she had slowed down. WHY would yagi write it in that way if he not wanted to show that teresa simply fought fire with more fire and that no rafinesse was involved here but raw speed and brute force?
If theresa thought that when she said "as things are now" things will be different later. Why did she say at the end: "You can come after me as often as you want i will cut you down every single time?".

P.S. We should bann people for producing "quote wars" perhaps for a few days. This is really awfull.
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Old 2009-08-12, 08:48   Link #2560
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
That is your interpretation. I read in the manga that irene did not know which aura was the stronger one. So it could still be that teresa's aura was the stronger one.
Irene: Wait both auras have grown but one is far beyond the other. Whose is it? Source OM.
So why this question? It should be clear that priscilla who runed wild had the far greater aura. So why this unnecessary question?
That line is before she has actually seen them, when they're climbing the hill. Once she sees them she asks herself who can possibly defeat Priscilla (I'm also using the onemanga scans) - this doesn't make any sense unless Priscilla is the stronger aura. If Teresa is the stronger it's obvious that Teresa will win, since Irene knows Teresa is more skilled.

Quote:
Why did yagi not simply let her say: Priscilla's aura is far beyond teresa's but theresa has released her aura too?
Why isn't the whole manga annotated with footnotes that explain everything in nice, clinical detail? She said what she said, and I maintain that her reaction makes no sense if Priscilla's is not the greater power.

Quote:
IMO this and the extra chapter let me came for myself to the conclusion that theresa was finally far stronger than priscilla. Think about the fact that teresa lied about rosemary. Teresa constantly tried to hide her real power.
IF rosemary was AO class all is proven BECAUSE she slaughtered with only 10-30% release her in a matter of seconds. Priscilla had at first even problems in her awakened form against isley. And again all your arguments are based on the exception of the rule that awakened number ones are AO class.
There's no such rule. All we know is that the AOs were all number ones and they all had roughly equal strength. There would be nothing strange about another number one being weaker. In fact, saying that any number one would be AO-level implies that Riful/Easley/Luciela were about as weak as you can be and still be number one, which flies in the face of Galatea's description of Riful as an especially exceptional warrior in her lifetime.

In the case of Isley, Priscilla was again defeated in terms of skill but won on sheer power in the end. Also, Priscilla having trouble with Isley would have to be taken as evidence that Rosemary was far below AO level, since Teresa had to make a much more serious effort against even the not-yet-Awakened Priscilla than she did against Rosemary.

Quote:
And form WHERE should teresa's superior skill come from. From fighting yoma and AB's which are nothing than cannon fodder for her. She probably did not train at all. Experience wise teresa was at the disadvantage. She fought against a motivated rookie who probably trained obsessively and was in a better shape than her. And this rookie was stealthed and made teresas greatest asset useless. So please don't talk about skill unless you can really bring arguments why teresa should have been more skilled.
The issue of their experiences is completely speculative and there's no point in addressing it. The only point I can bring to bear on it I already have: that Priscilla is categorized 'rapid growth' and Teresa so far as we know was not, so Teresa is more likely not to have always been as strong as she was at the end of her career and hand more challenges in her youth than Priscilla.

Quote:
And teresa's assumption that she could surpass her someday was made when she fought her stealthed. After she could measure her yoki and priscilla let the cat out of the bag teresa talked more confident.
She still only changed her mind about killing her at the last second, and only because she found herself thinking of Clare.

Quote:
P.S. We should bann people for producing "quote wars" perhaps for a few days. This is really awful.
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