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Old 2009-08-12, 09:48   Link #2561
Gooral
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@Kikaifan

No, the 3rd is a fact. Teresa said "I MAY be able to beat her now but next time, who knows?" suggesting she wasn't sure she would win then (I may? More like I will) even though she sparred with Priscilla enough time and was about to strike the final blow, Priscilla's death was inevitable and Teresa must have known that when she said those words (and even if we take into account that Priscilla could release her youki Teresa would have enough time to strike her down before that happened because it took quite a lot of time to go form 0%-100%). It would make more sense if Teresa said: "If I don't beat her now I may not have such good chance next time we meet" or sth like that if she meant that she doesn't know whether she's stronger than her or not. So if we take translated words literally then it is a fact.

As for facts 5 and so on, it's not that hard to notice that the first sentence in every "fact" are in fact facts and then goes interpretation. I didn't know I had to treat everyone as idiots and waste time on being explicit. It was easier for me to make a comment next to the fact rather than write facts and then write interpretation in other place.

And no, you're wrong. Irene was surprised by Teresa's strength. Lliteral translation of what Irene said AFTER she thought Priscilla could surpass Teresa and BEFORE she saw Teresa releasing ANY of her powers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
(...) Well, I found something more interesting. Irene does not say, "Teresa repelled Priscilla's insane strength with just enough youki release to change her eyes." She says, "I can't believe it! Teresa is exceeding Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color!" The word used is Uwamawaru. (上回る(P);【うわまわる】 to exceed).

And on the next page, she does not say "That is the true nature of Teresa's strength." She says, "Is this really Teresa's true strength when she has released her youki?" (...)
If that's not enough : http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ng#post2338499
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ng#post2338593

As for Irene's question: "who can stop Priscilla now that she's released so much power" look at the sequence of events. After she asked that question after few panels we finally see that Teresa changed her eye colour. We didn't see that earlier, why? Probably, because Teresa used less than 10% of her youki when Irene commented "both auras have grown". And the fact remains that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's insane power AND Irene didn't know shit even 5 minutes earlier ("Is this really Teresa's true strength when she released her youki?"). So as for Fact 4, everything I've written there is pretty much a fact. Viz's version is not literal.

As for fact 6, of course they weren't stronger than Priscilla otherwise the organization wouldn't make Priscilla #2. Noel (or Sophia, I never remember who's who) wanted to fight her at first but she immediately withdrew when she saw massacred youma. The same goes for Irene, she needed only one look to know she wouldn't stand a chance. What's more, Irene said that no matter how many warriors there were with her she would never face Teresa but when Priscilla was with her she was confident she could win. She wouldn't go if this someone was weaker than her and assuming otherwise is stupid (which you did). And no, my explanation doesn't single out Priscilla. She spared her didn't she? She told her that she can come after her as many times as she wants she would always lose, didn't she? And exclamation marks (meainng surprise etc.) mean nothing, she had the same expressions when she face Rosemary too and there were a lot of exclamation marks there too.

As for fact 7, no it wasn't misplaced. Priscilla WAS defeated and WAS struck down. Just because Yagi made Teresa hand her head over to Priscilla doesn't mean her confidence was misplaced, she couldn't have known that her god (i.e. Yagi himself) would make her do sth that was contradicting her character. It was deus ex machina plot device. She was much stronger than Priscilla but Yagi cheated and made her a sucker.

As for fact 8, how where the things looking then? Priscilla released her youki. It's probable that Teresa thought that Priscilla had a chance of winning only cloaked. Even if that's not true she made her earlier statement look stupidly. Why did she use words "I MAY be able to beat her now" since we've seen that even when Priscilla was using as much youki as she wanted she didn't stand a chance? It looks to me that she negated her earlier statement (I'm referring to "I may" part not "next time who knows). Of course this fact won't be a fact if it turns up to be an inaccurate translation.

As for fact 10, your analogy isn't too good. If the operator of the tank wanted to destroy the engine and couldn't then it would mean he was just a duffer.

As for the experience, I was the first one to come up with the argument irvinthearcher used. and a while later I added sth on that matter.. Then irvinthearcher agreed with me. Had to feed my ego :P.
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Old 2009-08-12, 10:50   Link #2562
Slash_Emperor
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Like we agreed I won't get involved in this discussion any further, but I will point this out. I was fairly certain before, but I also had a chance to double-check with an English literature teacher at my university, and your "I may be able to beat her now" argument is invalid. "I may" is actually much more often used to express a definite conclusion in contrast to another one (in this case, it's more like "yes, I can beat her now, but I'm not sure about next time), than express doubt over a conclusion. The far more common, far more widely wording Teresa would've used if she indeed doubted her ability to defeat Priscilla at that moment would be "I might".

In other words, saying that Teresa doubted her ability to defeat Priscilla based on the wording of that sentence is wrong, because that wording indicates otherwise. At the very least, it's not something you can use to support either view.
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Old 2009-08-12, 16:50   Link #2563
irvinethearcher
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@Kikaifan (compact and readable so that others can read and understand it too)
What has the identification of the yoki signature with "seeing priscilla and teresa" to do. Irene knew the yoki signature of priscilla after she released her yoki. She stood directly beside her. (look what gooral wrote above me, theresa released perhaps not 10% when irene said that, another possibility). For some unknown reason(very fishy and suspicious) she is not able to connect the larger yoki with the signature it belongs. God knows why that is. She sees that priscilla is almost over her limit and therefore thinks/concludes like me and most of the readers at that point too that priscilla has the greater yoki. But than came the xtra chapter which changed my point of view and rosemary said that it is impossible that teresa could have that much yoki. The arm twist, the power hiding. The organization who believes theresa's blatant lie because of the absurdity of the alternative...
Galatea said it herself in the witchs maw that there were three reported cases in which a number one awakened. Everytime an new AO was born. So this is a rule and rosemary not being AO would be an exception from this rule. If you are able to do probabilistic maths you can not deny the fact that the probability for rosemary being a full fledged number one is way higher than otherwise. Your annoying quote about "clinical footnotes" is really displaced. Yagi let it open which yoki was greater and irene, who should know the answer, is probably dead by now.
Theresa had not to make a much more serious effort against priscilla than against rosemary. After she released her yoki priscilla was done for. Theresa simply tried to save her until it was too late and spared her several times.
You say teresa thought about clare and that alone changed her mind?
Don't you think we have a paradox here if that is true?
So teresa thought about clare and spared priscilla despite knowing that priscilla would someday surpass her, kill her and make clare an orphan and a target for claymorization? Theresa killed the bandits to protect clare, broke the iron code and after the MiB said that clare would become a claymore she wiped out the fodder squad. She was ready to die at that point and said "farewell clare". I think that theresa knew that priscilla could never surpass her and therefore the chances of killing her were that low that she would not kill an innocent rookie only to be totally on the save side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan
The only point I can bring to bear on it I already have: that Priscilla is categorized 'rapid growth' and Teresa so far as we know was not, so Teresa is more likely not to have always been as strong as she was at the end of her career and hand more challenges in her youth than Priscilla.
We don't even know when teresa fought against rosemary. I have seen in some scanslation rosemary say: Why did they put this stupid kid in charge? Probably false translation but who knows. To say that teresa needed more time to develop is really on shaky ground. Again think about the scene with rafaella and what teresa was capable of.
About the argument of experience: I have written an estimation of clare's strength at the moment she fought the paburo AB in the priscilla vs. thresa thread. After i wrote it no one of the people i argued with had the mercy to answer me, so it must have been very good
Irene said that clare had only one tenth of her strength when she fought the paburo ab. And her p.e.p. was still incomplete. DESPITE those two points and despite she was already injured she was nearly able to kill an clearly above average AB all alone with teresa's technique. Now we have theresa who was far stronger than irene and who had a far better sensing ability(able to sense rafaella as a child). If clare could do this to an above average AB what could theresa do to a high ranking single digit ab with her p.e.p? The answer is that the high ranking single digit ab would have probably not even touched her and would have fallen by one or two strikes of theresa's sword. Now if we think that she fought only a few high ranking ab's and not even alone than we must come to the conclusion that she could not have gained anyt experience from fighting ab's which would be useful against the cloaked priscilla. Remember irene estimated clare's strength AFTER paburo.

And PLEASE say something about the fact that priscilla slowed down and theresa sped up. Was this really skill?
There is no skill in making simple movements faster at least not a lot.
@gooral: Yes you were the first with the experience argument. But still in this forum people think that fighting yoma(heresy) and average ab would have brought teresa combat experience.
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Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2009-08-12 at 17:31.
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Old 2009-08-12, 21:18   Link #2564
SagaraSouske
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On the experience argument, Clare is the living proof of how a claymore gains experience. Who is to say Teresa didn't improve like Clare in similar ways. No one knows the history of Teresa besides the Extra chapter with Rosemary fight. Granted, Teresa started out much higher then Clare did. That doesn't mean she started out as powerful as she is when she killed Priscilla. She has obviously been a claymore for a long time and longer then most warriors. Just because you guys elevate her to the point of ridiculous strength where she can kill AO class ABs with ease does not mean she started out that strong. Whether or not killing normal Ab or yoma gives her experience or not is a moot point. You simply have no knowledge of what she went through. For all we know, she may have went through ordeal even worse then Clare. It is not likely but you can't rule out it completely.

---

On Teresa's evaluation of Priscilla, what Teresa thought was: "konkai kirifuseru kodo ga deki temo... ji kai wa, dou naru ka wakaranai." - "Even though I can beat her this time, next time we meet, I won't know what will happen..." Teresa was sure she can defeat Priscilla now. But due to the monstrous potential (not youki since Priscilla is cloaked at the time), Teresa wasn't sure how their next encounter will turn out. So Gooral's whole argument(Fact 3) on what Teresa's own admission is based on inaccurate translation in the first place. There was never any doubt in Teresa's mind that she can defeat the current Priscilla. The whole "may" interpretation is basically moot.

I already explained earlier about "I can't believe it! Teresa is exceeding Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color!" The word used is Uwamawaru. (上回る(P);【うわまわる】 to exceed or to go above or go beyond. However in the context it was used, it was referring to over all ability as in Teresa in 10% is beating 80% Priscilla, not 10% Teresa has higher youki then 80% Priscilla.

I will defer to Kikaifan's rationale on who has the higher youki between 10% Teresa and 80% Priscilla. It was not explicit but his explanation makes the most sense.


---

As for Kinematics's theory on awakening, while it does explain the difference we see between awakened and claymore power levels by putting a different power coefficient for increased youki release level, it contradicts with the fact that for that theory to work, all claymores will need to have a constant relationship between their youki release stage and the power coefficient. Galatea already proved that to not be true since she stated each claymore has different factor in release, which renders a constant relationship between power coefficient and release stage improbable. Combined that with the fact that each awakening have different power increases - some strong claymores have small power increase when awakened while some mid rank ones have large increases, also renders the linear theory based on power coefficient less likely

Thus I still think awakening beings have an entirely separate and new youki pool from Claymore that is much bigger but the increase can vary in size depending on each awakening. The transformation process essentially erased the old being and created a new being with it's own set of parameters, including youki pool. This can also explain why Priscilla can release all her potential when she awaken as it is not merely a process to release 100% of her youki but remaking her into AB and her special trait allowed her to release all her potential in that process.
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Old 2009-08-13, 01:33   Link #2565
Gooral
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@SagaraSouske
I didn't read your response earlier, I was too occupied replying to Slash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
@Gooral, 上回る can also be translated in that context as Teresa is even stronger/better in the general sense and not a literal sense. The term itself literally means above or over and beyond. So Irene is saying Teresa is even above such a monster that is 80% releases Prisicilla. It does not necessarily have to be comparing Teresa’s youki to Prisicilla’s youki. It just means that Teresa can still defeat 80% Priscilla. Teresa can still be the weaker youki and is slower in raw speed and still win. Plenty of examples of raw power do not equate to winning or losing in this Manga.
Heh, even now you're trying to 'seek a brack where the hedge is whole'. Your reasoning has one big flaw however. If we had only words to rely to then I could acknowledge such possibility BUT it's a MANGA. And you focused on words only, ignoring the rest (i.e. PICTURES). The moment Teresa used (10,30)% of her youki she was faster than (70,80)% Priscilla, [ where (a,b) is an interval ]:


As you can see on the picture above the moment Teresa turned her eyes golden she became quicker than Priscilla near her limit of no return. In fact, she was MUCH quicker, Priscilla lost the sight of Teresa and didn't know what was going on.

And that's not all:

Teresa OVERPOWERED Priscilla COMPLETELY. It's undeniable truth that after she released 10% of her youki (and possibly more, but less than 30%) not even once Priscilla came close to her speed and strength. She couldn't have done it, if she didn't use more force than Priscilla could. Not only she overpowered her, but even threw her!!!. More of Teresa's remarkable power is shown moment later:

.
Priscilla couldn't overpower Teresa even when using momentum (mv) and potential energy (mgh) to her advantage. Teresa just stood there and repelled her attack and didn't even move an inch. Now that's what I call overpowering.

Seriously, how can you say that Irene didn't have youki in mind? How else would she be able to use a greater force than Priscilla? After all claymore's powers don't come from the strength of their muscles but from demon energy (Priscilla and Riful are the best examples of that, they were fragile but became the most powerful woman on the island and maybe the whole world). That Clare could lift a claymore didn't come out of her being wiry or being athletic but because of youriki. The fact that Teresa could lift 40 kg when she was human and Priscilla 30 kg means nothing because after hybrydization they could lift hundreds times that. If it was true that someone with better physical body would have better chances of becoming stronger, claymore men would have an advantage from the start and we haven't seen that.

P.S.
Sorry for all this bolding, underlining, coloring, etc. It makes it easier to me to read only these parts and know immediately what I was thinking a year back. That's in case I'll be needing this argument later on :P.
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Old 2009-08-13, 03:28   Link #2566
Slash_Emperor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
After all claymore's powers don't come from the strength of their muscles but from demon energy (Priscilla and Riful are the best examples of that, they were fragile but became the most powerful woman on the island and maybe the whole world)
A hybrid's strength originates from Yoki, but is not that tightly tied to it. Once it is developed and they receive appropriate training, even their natural strength is greatly enhanced. Else, how can they fight with their Yoki suppressed like Rafaela, Priscilla and the seven survivors?
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Old 2009-08-13, 03:39   Link #2567
Gooral
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OK, but youki is still the source of their power even when they don't emit youki. Emitting youki is one thing, using it is another, hence my example with lifting and recalling MALE claymores and AB.
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Old 2009-08-13, 03:45   Link #2568
Kikaifan
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@Gooral:

Alright, if you want to bring poor abused physics into this...

Both of them are insanely strong. Their weights haven't changed, so physically either of them is easily capable of throwing the other back. What matters (at least if you try to justify super-strength, which is generally impossible for fiction of this style) is skill, not raw strength - what angle they're hitting each other and taking attacks from and whether they can hit their opponent when they're not prepared and force parry from a disadvantageous angle.

This is the same as the way Teresa can easily block the quicksword without releasing - it doesn't matter how fast it is, because as long as she preempts the motion of the blade by enough time to make up for the speed difference she can stop the swing and force Irene to free the blade before she can start her next strike.

Also just generally using still images to draw conclusions about force and motion isn't all that easy, especially in manga which tends to be very stylized. And just plain unrealistic.

Anyway since Sagarasousuke's responses are similar to those I would make I'll refrain from tormenting poor Irvine with another quote-by-quote response. Suffice to say that while I'm more open to your view than before after reading the discussion you linked, I have the same objection as Sagarasousuke that 'chikara' is an ambiguous word that depending on its translation can support both of our views.

My argument for the others on the hunting team being stronger than Priscilla (with her youki fully suppressed, of course) is pretty simple. Irene is fully aware that Teresa's raw skill is better than Priscilla's, and expects Teresa to win their initial solo fight where youki sensing is unusable. Irene also thinks that the hunting team is better in their specializations than Teresa and Teresa's true advantage is youki sensing. So it stands to reason that she thinks that the hunting team is also superior in their specializations to Priscilla. It doesn't particularly matter whether Irene is correct; all that matters is that nothing Teresa did during the initial fight with Priscilla changed her mind, so we can say that the level of ability Teresa used to defeat Priscilla was within Irene's expectations and the comparison holds.

@Irvine

Irene does connect the larger youki with Priscilla implicitly when she starts acting like she expects Priscilla to win even though she knows Teresa's base abilities are greater. Supposing that she somehow lost her ability to sense youki and was going on appearance alone is a rather drastic step; I can't say it is impossible based on the text but since identifying youki on the level of an individual is the most basic ability of the warriors and Irene's sensing ability was appropriate for a warrior of her rank it seems unthinkable that it would not be commented on. Compared to a more explicit statement comparing Priscilla and Teresa's auras, which would normally be obvious to all present, the failure to comment on an unprecedented obstruction of their senses is much more unlikely.

Regarding the extra: it demonstrates that Teresa's power is completely ridiculous, but so is Priscilla's. For me it just moved both of them up.

Regarding #1 - AO equivalence: it's a crock. One is a rank, the other is a specific level of ability shared by the three #1s who happened to Awaken. The idea that every #1 is EXACTLY as powerful as Riful, Isley, and Luciela makes no intuitive sense but people keep on promoting it anyway. Don't even try to bring statistics into this; a sample size of three has enormous margin of error and has almost no predictive power whatsoever.

I'm not really interested in the experience argument. If skill gain in Claymore is realistic you're probably right, there's no reason for her swordsmanship etc. to be that refined. If it's like 90% of action animanga where some people are just born talented and can master a skill in a few weeks all bets are off.
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Old 2009-08-13, 06:52   Link #2569
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
(...) Both of them are insanely strong. Their weights haven't changed, so physically either of them is easily capable of throwing the other back. What matters (at least if you try to justify super-strength, which is generally impossible for fiction of this style) is skill, not raw strength - what angle they're hitting each other and taking attacks from and whether they can hit their opponent when they're not prepared and force parry from a disadvantageous angle. (...)
Gibberish. If Teresa didn't hit Priscilla in the right angle (and I don't necessarily mean π/2 radians) the sword would slide down and no matter how much strength she would use she wouldn't be able to throw her. So it's a given she and Priscilla would always attack at the right angle (otherwise it wouldn't be a sword-play but random swinging). It was the raw strength that made a difference. In addition we can see that Priscilla was prepared for an attack and tried to counter it but failed because she didn't have enough strength. If she wasn't prepared it would only mean that Teresa was that much faster. Whichever option proves my point anyway i.e. Priscilla was weaker.

I will abuse poor physics once more. If you face two exact springs directly to each other and strain the first to half of it's length and the second strain to maximum and release it, the second one will push the other (at least at first but that's just an analogy). You don't have to know how to solve differential equation to see that Teresa used more force than Priscilla.

_>_>_>_>_>_>_>_| |_<_<_<_<_<_<_<_
_>_>_>_>>>>_| |_<<<<<<<
_>_>_>__| |_<<<_<_<_<_

Skill has nothing to do with it (well maybe to minimal degree it has). Besides, Teresa was the one that had disadvantageous position when Priscilla jump-rushed at her and even then Priscilla didn't move her even an inch, i.e. Teresa had stored more energy than Priscilla used at her. We know that basic physics apply to Claymore (we've seen inertia, dynamic friction, the use of momentum, etc.). I was expecting sth like this to happen:



Thanks to this page we can see how much more strength Teresa used to repel Priscilla's attack (she wasn't even bent, only said "Argh!") and it also shows how much more energy Teresa gained after releasing her youki.

As for the quicksword, Teresa would still have to be at least as fast as Irene because Irene would always have the advantage that she would send the signal to move earlier than Teresa could use PYS. Pre-emptive youki sensing (PYS in short) couldn't have been much faster than Irene's flow of youki, otherwise she wouldn't know where exactly Irene would strike because Irene had all of her youki stored only in her arm and had it released always at maximum. Discerning an attack of this sort would be extremely difficult. (All she would know would be that youki flows in the specific part of a hand but she wouldn't know which part EXACTLY. Because only arm was used, only the arm would move but how could she discern attack if she knew it too early? She could only approximate where it could go but not know that 100 times of 100. Even if she knew to which part it would go she would have to know where the attack would land and I don't see how she could do that with a quicksword. The motions were complicated because Irene swung her sword in all directions). And if she knew it the moment it reached specific part she would still have to be AS FAST AS IRENE. If Irene's attacks where periodic and Teresa had it all figured out (which would be impossile if she didn't have super-computer in her head) she would still not know when to parry and how to parry.
What's more, when Irene faced Teresa she was ALREADY using quicksword (we can see her chopping a table or sth - picture 1) but still Teresa could stop it when she wanted. Teresa didn't have enough time to read the move that already was in motion. She had to be faster! She also could exchange every hit (pic 2):

1) 2)

And there is one thing you (and others of similar opinion to yours) ignore. You're assuming that Teresa can adjust her position, the way she holds a sword, etc. but so can Irene. In fact Irene could use PYS to her advantage. Since she would know that Teresa would know where she would strike all she had to do was to add some randomness to her attacks. Without using youki she could suddenly crouch, lean back or even change the angle of attack by bouncing it off a wall. Heck, she could even spit at Teresa and blind her/distract her for a second. Irene knew it wouldn't help because Teresa wasn't using PYS when fighting her.
Last but not least, the easiest way to defeat Teresa was for Irene to occupy her with incessant barrage of attacks and other Claymore could stab her in the back. Wait... They tried it not only with one warrior but 4 and it FAILED! No matter how I look at it, Irene was slower than Teresa.

P.S.
Unless Aimless or Kinematics tells me to stop abusing physics I won't stop :P.

Last edited by Gooral; 2009-08-13 at 07:11.
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Old 2009-08-13, 07:49   Link #2570
irvinethearcher
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Who is to say Teresa didn't improve like Clare in similar ways? Yagi says! Look how chibi teresa could escape from the org through the woods and even sensed rafaella. I don't even be sure if she had to train her p.e.p. after seeing what she did with rafaella. It is not i who makes her godlike, i merely grasp at yagi's hints. Please put a bit more effort in your arguments. Theresa said also that when she went directly from the academy that she was obviously the strongest by far to rosemary.
So we can conclude that teresa did not gain experience like clare did. It is possible that theresa went through worse than clare but it is even possible that yuma in the end is the strongest being of the entire claymoreverse Please stay objective and don't use improbable exceptions to argue. I can even say that teresa who was trained and came fresh from the academy was in a better physical shape and therefore stronger than teresa who walked from town to town as some kind of verminator for small fry.
There was nothing shown in the entire manga which would have made her significantly stronger than coming fresh from the academy. And that is a FACT. Fighting against normal abs and yoma IS the point. She probably did not train a lot so the only source for her to gain experience is to fight adversaries who could give her a stimulus high enough to gain experience. And that is not a philosophy that is a basic law of biology and nature.


P(x) = B + Y * ((x/10)^R)

P(x) = overall total power (strength, speed, resilience, etc)
B = base power (power at 0% release; ie: 7 Ghosts)
Y = yoki pool, what others can sense
x = percentage release(x=1 ->10% x =2 -> 20% yoki release...)
R = rate at which power increases (Galatea's 'factor')

You replace simply R by R_claymore and we are all happy. So the theory still shows that yoki release is not an linear power gain but an exponential.
This does not necessarily mean that this is the reality in claymore. It is only his theory which would fit nicely in what we have seen so far.
I don't know if there is a new pool of yoki(perhaps you are right) i am only interested how yoki release and the power gain are connected with each other.

@kikaifan
It is ridiculous that you seem not to be able to use simple Bayesian maths.
It is probably more that you don't like to use it
P(rosemary=A0 | isley=A0 riful=AO luciella=AO no other #1 awakened so far)
>
P(rosemary!=A0 | isley=A0 riful=AO luciella=AO no other #1 awakened so far)

Okay, that should be clear by now. So the assumption that rosemary was not AO is an exception from what we know so far, even if we know only 3 reported cases.

Your argument about priscilla being the greater yoki is flawed because irene would have identified the yoki immediately even if she could not have seen priscilla and theresa. For sensing yoki it is not necessary to see the opponent or even see something. Why was irene unsure which yoki was the bigger one?
I have no answer to that. Fact is that she knew priscilla's yoki that is enough information to distinguish it directly from theresa's. After she sees priscilla nearly awakened she asks herself who could stop her now.
And again, no one writes about my sped up argument. Don't say to me it is skill to run 100m faster than another runner.

@gooral, i like those pics especially this were teresa shows that she is way faster than priscilla.
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Old 2009-08-13, 08:42   Link #2571
Taylor_Maclaurin
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Interesting debate. So far between Teresa's apologists and Kikaifan it's 2:0. I especially liked how irvinethearcher destroyed Kikaifan's argument by using math. So far all I hear from Kikaifan is: "it is bad math", "it is bad physics", etc. Maybe you could show everyone how good you are in science and be more creative than writing "it's bad" and assume that everyone goes along with it?
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:30   Link #2572
SagaraSouske
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@Gooral, on the who is faster argument. You are ignoring two facts:

1. Irene cannot control QS exactly. The technique is just releasing arm in 100% youki and use will power to direct it at your opponent.
2. Preemptive sensing allow the user to act before the attack preemptively.

So Irene cannot take advantage of Teresa's PYS since she cannot control precisely where she is going to hit and Teresa can utilize PYS to block even before the sword is there. Just because they are both faster then human eyes can see doesn't mean there are no speed difference. Teresa can be slower then Irene and still be faster then human eyes can capture.

The picture where you linked for Priscilla jump rushing Teresa in your last post was actually Irene jump rushing Teresa. Not sure if that is due to a mislink or what. Anyways in that panel, Teresa was being forced down and was struggling from the force of impact.

As for the images from earlier posts regarding Teresa’s fight against 80% Pris, it’s doesn’t have to be Teresa is faster but merely she is far more skillful and anticipated Pris’s attack and preemped her. Notice when she fought all 4 at the same time she initially seem to struggle to block and dodge their attacks and right after the Irene jump attack panel, when Pris attacked Teresa from the back while she was blocking Irene, she seemed to disappeared and then we see Irene injured. Well that’s the power of preemptive strike resulting from PYS, when you act before an attack acts to attack and at the same time avoid being attacked, it would make it seem like you are much faster but in reality you don’t have to be.

Take Clare for example, she was doing similar things as Teresa is doing but she clearly is not faster then the Slasher Arc AB. What allowed her to do that is because she acted preemptively to avoid the tentacle attacks and it seemed like she was moving faster then them and dodged them.

Also, blocking an attack require far less strength then the attacker. Especially blocking a jump attack when you are anchored to the ground because the impact is largely being transferred and absorbed by the ground. So your Teresa overpowering Priscilla examples are not even physics safe. But imho using physics on Claymore is kinda pointless. I am sure Yagi is not a physicist and generally fantasy worlds tends to completely ignore physics for the most part.

---

@Irving, as for Kinematic’s theory:

P(x) = B + Y * ((x/10)^R)

P(x) = overall total power (strength, speed, resilience, etc)
B = base power (power at 0% release; ie: 7 Ghosts)
Y = yoki pool, what others can sense
x = percentage release(x=1 ->10% x =2 -> 20% yoki release...)
R = rate at which power increases (Galatea's 'factor')

Youki serves to enhance strength, speed, endurance etc for claymores. So B and Y should be in a multiplicative relationship and not addictive. The power coefficient I was referring to is (x/10)^R in this formula. That should have a constant relationship with respect to Y. If R is variable, it is no longer constant and we know R is variable.

Examples where this formula fails: Ophelia’s awakening. The x = 80% to x = 100% jump wasn’t as nearly as large for her as the formula dictates. Clare’s partial limb awakening. The x = 80+% (since she half awakened) to x = 99% (limb awaken) jump is huge and inconsistent of the 0 – 80% power coefficient.

Again, I don’t think when Yagi sensei created this manga, he intended to have any type of math formula to dictate his creations. Using mathematic in a fantasy setting, especially one in a manga, is as silly as using physics. One can use general principles from both but relying on them to explain every little details will just end up in inconsistency and contradictions.
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Old 2009-08-13, 13:49   Link #2573
MegaSoups
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Oh I got a good one, how about Isley, Rig Vs Alicia and Beth? I believe Isley and Rig will win hand down in a team match. With Isley power and speed, and with Rig..well speed, They could defeat the twin with no problem, while Beth busy standing still, Rig could attack her and Isley could take care of Alicia.

Isley Doesn't have to get to close to attack Alicia like Riful. Plus he have many long range attacks. With one AO and one AB teaming up together. It will be impossible to defeat them. Also Isley and Rig lvl are higher then A-B.

Isley
Yoki: SSS+
Agility: EX+
Strength: SSS
Hardness: SS+
Intelligence: SSS+

Rig
Yoki: SSS+
Agility: SSS+
Strength: SS
Hardness: B-
Intelligence: EX+

Alicia Awaken 7 years
Yoki: SS+
Agility: SS+
Strength: S+
Hardness: C-
Intelligence: E

Beth
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sensing: A
Leadership: E

Last edited by MegaSoups; 2009-08-13 at 14:03.
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Old 2009-08-13, 14:12   Link #2574
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Riful is the one of the Abyssal Ones with the primary ranged combat capability, tbh. Were any official stats given for those four, or are these your estimations? I'm guessing the second, because otherwise they are the most ridiculously anti-canonical canon material I've seen in my life, and there's been a lot of that.

At any rate, Rigardo is merely fodder, the most he can do is distract Beth - but I don't see him surviving even a few minutes against Alicia. Of course, Alicia is like a sword - it only slashes whatever it is pointed at, so just like the twins didn't do the obvious and kill off Dauff before they attacked Riful, they might focus on Isley and ignore Rigardo. Therein lies Isley's chance of victory, perhaps, since Rigardo would be much better at attacking Beth than Dauff. While I don't think Isley will have an easier time with Alicia than Riful, who could attack omnidirectionally, the strength of their partners might be enough to tip the scales.

Then again, we haven't seen all that Alicia and Beth can do yet.
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Old 2009-08-13, 14:23   Link #2575
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These are my stats, The reason why I said that, because Alicia and Beth doesn't have crazy regn power like the AE, So that mean Isley and Rig will have a better chance with Alicia and beth. Also while Rig busy taking care of Beth, Alicia will lose her speed and strength, Also Rig is way smarter than Duff, and he won't be just standing there crying if his arm is cut off. Which I doubt his arm will get cut off since Beth can only do is dodge. If she attack Alicia might go out of control.
But i am talking about just them fighting, without AE getting in the fight just those 4 lol.

Last edited by MegaSoups; 2009-08-13 at 14:41.
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Old 2009-08-13, 15:43   Link #2576
irvinethearcher
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IMO kinematics trys only to explain the huge power boost an awakened being gets compared to a 79% yoki released claymore.
You could be right that yoki influences directly the base strength values and that their must be a multiplicative relationship between them but i don't know where this was stated in the manga. So i would have to reread ...

About the physics and maths i know:


But still really simple math, physic and logic should be allowed even in a manga
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Old 2009-08-13, 21:21   Link #2577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
IMO kinematics trys only to explain the huge power boost an awakened being gets compared to a 79% yoki released claymore.
You could be right that yoki influences directly the base strength values and that their must be a multiplicative relationship between them but i don't know where this was stated in the manga. So i would have to reread ...

About the physics and maths i know:


But still really simple math, physic and logic should be allowed even in a manga
Irvine, I'm giving you positive rep and saving that picture.

I can't even begin to imagine all the debates where that picture was really needed .

But don't worry; sooner or later Gangsta or Illney will bring up their doctrines and the Cat Girls will be waiting
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Old 2009-08-13, 22:31   Link #2578
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How can Miria, Riful and Irean sense a Claymore's power without been good sensors?

Deneven said that some humans can sense yoki.

Using Miria as an example:
If Miria had the ability to sense yoki when she was a human, it might have been enhanced when she became a Claymore. What I'm trying to say is that Miria has a sixth sense that allowed her to sense yoki before she became a Claymore. Once she became a Claymore that sixth sense was enhanced, allowing her to sense the quality of yoki as oppose to just quantity.
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Old 2009-08-14, 01:08   Link #2579
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
(...) The picture where you linked for Priscilla jump rushing Teresa in your last post was actually Irene jump rushing Teresa. Not sure if that is due to a mislink or what. Anyways in that panel, Teresa was being forced down and was struggling from the force of impact. (...)
If you read carefully what I wrote you wouldn't call it a mistake. I wrote: "I was expecting sth like this to happen:" and posted the image where Irene forced Teresa down and made her kneel. Unfortunately for you in Teresa vs. Priscilla fight Teresa easily repelled Priscilla's attack without being so much as bent.

Hence my comment under the picture. The picture where MUCH weaker Irene made Teresa kneel PROVES that when Teresa faced Priscilla (and didn't even move an inch and wasn't bent more than few inches) she had stored MUCH more energy and used much bigger force, i.e. 10% of her youki gave gher such power boost! I thought I didn't have to repost earlier picture again, guess that some need everything to be made explicit. Teresa wasn't forced down when Priscilla jumped-rushed at her (show me where she was forced down) and was forced down when Irene jumped at her. You're still writing exactly the same thing what you wrote earlier even though I clearly showed that Teresa used more force and was faster. It wasn't matter of PYS or some other skill than raw strength that she got behind Priscilla (the moment earlier she was facing Priscilla. She would still have to be much faster to disappear because she started disappearing only when Priscilla was 1 meter/yard away). Look:



And it wasn't the matter of PYS that she could repel Priscilla's massive attack. PYS doesn't boost your strength, does it? You're arguing just to argue, starting from this post. You didn't take the words literally but gave your own interpretation because only then you could continue this stupid debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
(...)
Notice when she fought all 4 at the same time she initially seem to struggle to block and dodge their attacks and right after the Irene jump attack panel, when Pris attacked Teresa from the back while she was blocking Irene, she seemed to disappeared and then we see Irene injured. Well thatís the power of preemptive strike resulting from PYS, when you act before an attack acts to attack and at the same time avoid being attacked, it would make it seem like you are much faster but in reality you donít have to be. (...)
At first Teresa was much slower but during the fight she sped up. It was either due to her adjusting to the opponents level (so that she wouldn't use too much force and kill claymores just like she did with first death squad) or because she was gradually using more youki (but below 10%, we don't know if it's possible to discern between 0% release and 9% release) but not because of PYS (which I'll prove later on).
As for disappearing, what you wrote is utterly stupid. Let's check what really happened:


As we can see Teresa's PYS wasn't fast enough to prevent being between Priscilla and Irene. What's worse Teresa had her sword stuck and Priscilla's sword was few inches away from her head. In addition it was already in powerful, super fast motion (it wasn't before the atttack as you wrote but DURING the attack) and it was (femto/nano/micro)seconds between it would reach her head. Still, she managed to turn her head towards Priscilla (I wonder why would she do that if she knew the attack was coming??) while still facing Irene !!! You can't tell me that she did it because she sensed it earlier because we can see a moment earlier that she's facing Irene in the opposite direction ! So her head twist would have to be faster than Priscilla's swing at highest speed! That alone would mean awesomeness. While doing all that somehow Irene wasn't fast enough to injure Teresa and while doing all that Teresa managed to disappear, even after she wasted time to turn her head towards Priscilla and injuring Irene!!!
Even if she didn't twist her head but disappeared immediately she would still have to be much faster than Priscilla's swing at point blank range but adding to this twisting her head is just unbelievable! What would PYS helped here if she wasn't faster than Priscilla and Irene acting both at the same time?


The picture above only shows how fast Teresa was. Not once have we seen such speed that we've lost sight of Teresa (which proves she became much faster than at the start) and all that was left was cloud of dust (And I mean here, BEFORE Teresa released youki. We've seen it again on a whole different scale when 80% Priscilla lost sight of Teresa). The only thing PYS helped Teresa in that situation was to warn her about the danger (and as I've written earlier it wasn't fast enough to prevent her from being between two most powerful warriors) but it was her raw strength that allowed her to escape. Don't you think it would be easier to use PYS before Teresa would face such difficult situation? If it was that great why didn't Teresa use it? The answer is simple, it wasn't fast enough, another argument that supports Teresa didn't use PYS against quicksword. She always had to turn her head towards her opponent to know how to counter-attack/parry. We've never seen her fight with her eyes closed contrary to what Galatea did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@SagaraSousuke
Discussing with you is like talking to a wall, you dismiss solid arguments based on Yagi's words and input your own interpretation.[B] (...)
I'll add to this that you dismiss not only words but also obvious pictures and you're making me to explain everything and make my posts chaotic (I have to make a comment in brackets to my every argument).

Let's end this, shall we?
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Old 2009-08-14, 10:48   Link #2580
MisterJB
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IMO, Isley and Rigardo could defeat Alicia and Beth.

First of all, I'm sure that Isley would be having a hard time hitting the extremely agile Alicia, just like Riful is having rigth now.
However, Alicia would also be having a very hard time wounding Isley. Mainly because Alicia is expecialized in cutting and there is a huge difference between cutting thin tentacles and cutting huge swords, shields, lances and claws.
And of course, Isley could also use the Yoki homing arrows to pursue Alicia.
My point is, even tough he couldn't kill Alicia, Isley wouldn't be having such a hard time. Not because of raw power, because of his figthing style.

As for Beth and Rigardo... first of all, Rigardo isn't stupid. He wouldn't attack Alicia and lose an arm or more on the process. The main question here is: How fast is Beth?
We know that she is capable of being as fast as Miria. However, which Miria?

The Slasher Miria? The Pieta Miria? Or the Ghost Miria?
If Beth is using anything less than "Ghost Miria's speed", then not only can Rigardo distract her, he can also kill Beth.
And even if Rigardo can't kill her, he can put much more pressure on Beth than Dauf. With Beth under stress and incapable of figthing back, Alicia would slow enough for Isley to hit her.

Of course, this is all assuming that Alicia doesn't understand that Beth is in danger and attacks Rigardo, killing him in five seconds.
With Isley alone, Alicia and Beth could kill him.
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