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Old 2009-08-13, 11:20   Link #21
Zetsubo
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or Sendere.... lol

Horo is a tsundere ? hmm... I doubt it.

Horo is just jaded.

Last edited by Pellissier; 2009-08-13 at 13:20. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of double posting
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:31   Link #22
cerrian
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I've found Hitagi to be too emotionally broken to be tsundere. She doesn't seem to have a violent defensive mechanism like you see in most tsundere. It's more like she closes up and becomes unreadable when her defensive mechanisms kick in.
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:38   Link #23
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It depends - i do not call just a violent defensive mechanism as a must trait of tsundere but other defensive mechanisms as well, as log as they are meant to push others away from the vulnerable self (like for example Horo uses flirting as her defensive mechanism).
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:42   Link #24
zato_1one
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I said she looks like Kuudere because she's a cool head. And her face is, most of the time, emotionless despite what mood she is. Most Tsundere act violent because they want to hide their true feeling. This is totally opposite with Hitagi. She acts violent because she really want to do it.
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:45   Link #25
Zetsubo
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I wonder if viewers realise that Hitagi is a pervert ?
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:50   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
I said she looks like Kuudere because she's a cool head. And her face is always emotionless despite what mood she is. Most Tsundere act violent because they want to hide their true feeling. This is totally opposite with Hitagi. She acts violent because she really want to do it.
Some tsundere's are mean in their nature as well, not because that they have to hide something. Actually majority of them are - like for example Asuka (she treats everyone like shit not just her love interest - Shinji, and its not like she has to hide from lets say Touji).
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Old 2009-08-13, 11:52   Link #27
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I always thought a tsundere's intention was to make the person they like not like them and thus act cold. Her acting cold is just her conditon (along wtih being extremely jealous). She pretty much made it clear that she likes Koyomi so I wouldn't classify her as a traditional tsundere.
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:06   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
I always thought a tsundere's intention was to make the person they like not like them and thus act cold. Her acting cold is just her conditon (along wtih being extremely jealous). She pretty much made it clear that she likes Koyomi so I wouldn't classify her as a traditional tsundere.
Thats where you are wrong - a classical tsundere is a girl who acts mean to a hero but later warms up as she fall is love. She can act nice and open through the rest of the series and she would still be a classical tsudere.

Its only later that a classical tsundere was changed so that her being mean would become a repeating trait. In this sense Hitagi is a classical tsundere because she acted mean/bad towards him when they met and only later became more open (though I wold have troubles calling it nice as well).
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:34   Link #29
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Arrrgghh. You say "to-MAY-to", I say "to-MAH-to"...

All this "debate" over how to classify Senjougahara is getting nowhere. Call her what you like, whatever floats your boat. How about describing who she is, on her own terms, rather than trying to label her according to some arbitrary definition?

Why Senjougahara fascination?

Because, as fans, we can relate to her emotional problems, as they are familiar to many of us, especially teenagers.

Strip away the word play, the eccentric animation and the sexual innuendo, and you'd find a cast of characters in Bakemonogatari with problems that many of us know very well: the yearning for love and companionship, the desire for self-esteem, the wish to be respected for who you are and not what others expect you to be.

Why are we fascinated with Senjougahara? Because she's flawed and we have a vested interest in seeing her redeem herself successfully. Because, deep down, we'd like to believe that we can do the same.

If any of you had even been paying attention, you'd notice that Hanekawa had already succintly summed up Senjougahara's problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanekawa (from Ep6)
"Senjougahara-san is difficult... So, because of that, well, I don't want to say this as though I know her very well, but Senjougahra has built an impenetrable 'self field' around herself, just like the one you (Araragi) have.

"Everyone has a self field they call 'privacy' or whatever, but for you and her, it goes beyond that and turns into a siege mentality."
References to Neon Genesis Evagelion aside, it's interesting to consider how Hanekawa would know something like that. It's not hard to guess, because she drops an obvious hint:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanekawa
"Receiving guests is the most difficult thing for me to do, but not if you (Araragi) are the guest."
Couple that with what we already know about her from Episode 5 and we can easily put two-and-two together: like Senjougahara, Hanekawa also has secrets to hide. Hence her wise advice to Araragi:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanekawa
"Wanting to know more about your dear girlfriend is normal. But it's best not to peer too deep into a lover's past. It won't be all fun and games, so try not to probe too deep too soon."

One of the reasons I was getting increasingly irritated by comparisons between the novels and the anime was that, as TV viewers, we're not doing enough to evaluate the anime on its own merits.

Based on what I've seen so far, it increasingly appears to me that SHAFT (or Shinbo) had decided to build the show around Senjougahara and Araragi.

Yes, that's right, the star of the show is neither Araragi nor Senjougahara, but rather their growing relationship. By a strange twist of fate, they were made for one another. It takes the two of them to make Bakemonogatari tango.

And, so far, Hachikuji and Kanbaru's arcs appear to be devices to throw focus on different aspects of the couple's relationship.

I haven't read the novels so of course I wouldn't know if they are constructed this way but, to me, that certainly appears to be the direction the anime adaption is going. I don't think it's an accident that Staple Stable and Kimi no shiranai monogatari contain lyrics that hint at the "weight" (omoi) of Senjougahara's "feelings" (omoi), and her desire to have them heard.

Her unique misfortune stems from the trauma she suffered two years ago, after she was betrayed by her own mother. It's no surprise, then, that she has had trouble trusting people ever since. When you can't trust your own feelings, when you aren't sure whether your behaviour is sending out the right signals, how confident can you be in expressing yourself?

That's why Senjougahara explodes into violent behaviour the way she does. Part of it is triggered by her own self-defence mechanisms. Another part of it stems from her frustration over her inability to express herself honestly (she hints that this may be her problem with Kanbaru), without losing her strong sense of pride and dignity.

And that's why she's fascinating, at least, to me.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2009-08-13 at 12:53.
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:47   Link #30
zato_1one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Some tsundere's are mean in their nature as well, not because that they have to hide something. Actually majority of them are - like for example Asuka (she treats everyone like shit not just her love interest - Shinji, and its not like she has to hide from lets say Touji).
Asuka looks down on everyone because she is such a bitchy. It's her trait not tsundere trait. I classify character base on how they feel and act towards their love interest. I still can't see Hitagi as a classic tsundere. If she really is, she is an exceptional one. She acted violent toward Araragi at first because she didn't want him to disclose her secret. Later, she felt that Araragi was a nice person and she wanted to be with him. At this time, she acted violent toward him because she didn't want Araragi to dare betraying her. I consider her twist as her own trait.

And I agree completely that trying to classify her is getting nowhere. Because I believe that she can't be classify by just only one definition.
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:49   Link #31
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Wonder a question:

Is Hitagi a vampire or just some kind of hybrid.
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:52   Link #32
zato_1one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highman View Post
Wonder a question:

Is Hitagi a vampire or just some kind of hybrid.
According to the anime, she is human. But Araragi "was" a vampire.
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Old 2009-08-13, 12:58   Link #33
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Hmm, i think Senjougahara cant be classified into one stereotype of dere...


She is very unique.
Why? Cause her personality is not what an heroine of anime should be.
Many of anime series avoided main hero and heroine straight out their feeling in only 5 eps of series (except of some hardcore stalker girl) But here comes Senjougahara, says "I Love You" in the eps 5. And in eps 6, she clearly stated out her love (eventhough many of her statement is extreme) to Araragi...

That's why Senjougahara is so fascinating and unique...
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Old 2009-08-13, 15:34   Link #34
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The way I classify Senjougahara: __dere, with the blank there because she's not specifically a tsundere or yandere

and Asuka was never a tsundere. She was just a plain out tsuntsun... she had her moments, but she never really opened up to shinji in the way a tsundere does
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Old 2009-08-13, 15:50   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
Hmm, i think Senjougahara cant be classified into one stereotype of dere...


She is very unique.
Why? Cause her personality is not what an heroine of anime should be.
Many of anime series avoided main hero and heroine straight out their feeling in only 5 eps of series (except of some hardcore stalker girl) But here comes Senjougahara, says "I Love You" in the eps 5. And in eps 6, she clearly stated out her love (eventhough many of her statement is extreme) to Araragi...

That's why Senjougahara is so fascinating and unique...
yep, I think that way, too
She's not the typical kind of tsundere, but she still fills in a few stereotypes
tsunderes are loud and always fighting, she's quiet and chilled, she harms ppl, too
but not with a pantyflashing kick or something (although it seems that Bakemonogatari is a bit of a ecchi - just a bit)
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Old 2009-08-13, 17:44   Link #36
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If I have to classify Senjougahara, I would have to say that she's both a tsundere and yandere at the same time.

What you normally see is mostly her 'tsun', but her 'yan' is private and intimate. What's interesting is that these aspects of her personality have totally replaced the typical 'dere', and these are attributed to her harsh experiences from long ago. At the moment, the challenge she faces as a character is to learn how to cope with this, and to open up some more.

She's like a contradiction of many character extremes, which makes her complex and unique. Even though she amusingly calls herself 'tsundere', it's not really that simple to place her under a particular category.

Last edited by kujoe; 2009-08-13 at 18:19.
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Old 2009-08-13, 17:58   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin View Post
The way I classify Senjougahara: __dere, with the blank there because she's not specifically a tsundere or yandere

and Asuka was never a tsundere. She was just a plain out tsuntsun... she had her moments, but she never really opened up to shinji in the way a tsundere does
Well Shikinami is (in the movies, but her character was dumbed down to single purpose of existing for Shinji and her interactions with him).

But even Sohryu was - it was just very subtle (though some wold call her scream during mind-rape "Why don't you hold me!" not very subtle, or when Touji calls them newlyweds both blush and deny it in a typical tsundere-couple way).
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Old 2009-08-13, 18:09   Link #38
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Anyone who says Asuka is a typical tsundere is either deluding themselves or missing half the point of Eva.

Eva was about explaining how the kinds of personalities one typically sees in anime would actually come into existence; their answer was "through lots and lots of mental trauma". (It was supposed to be a huge subversion of character tropes... everyone went "oooh, robots" and missed the point.)

Bakemonogatari seems somewhat similar in this way... Hitagi is the way she is because of mental issues, not because that kind of personality makes for an interesting character.

This is why I think putting her personality into a box and labeling it is futile: She's a lot more "realistic" than 90% of anime characters. Hell, Koyomi is too.

Hitagi is Hitagi and that's that.
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Old 2009-08-13, 19:40   Link #39
Texas84
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Can someone translate her name? Surname is battlefield? Kinda makes sense.
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Old 2009-08-13, 19:50   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas84 View Post
Can someone translate her name? Surname is battlefield? Kinda makes sense.
The "senjou" part (戦場) means "battlefield," "gahara" (ヶ原) I'm sure means something since all kanji do (actually the "ga" isn't a kanji, but...), however I don't think it has any deeper meaning... seems to just be a name part.

And since I'm assuming you're referring to Hanekawa's explanation in episode six, the "kan" (神) in "Kanbaru" (神原) means "god," and the last kanji in Senjougahara and Kanbaru is the same.

Although speaking of which, in the first ep when Araragi and Hanekawa were discussing Senjougahara, one of them mentioned that her given name was something... I think the subs said "construction worker slang," was it? But I couldn't find "hitagi" in the online dictionary I'm using. What's it mean?
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