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Old 2009-07-20, 11:44   Link #41
izmosmolnar
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Well not to be rude or anything, but MG had the right to shut down the Higurashi fantranslation, despite that the Sisters also had an email from the original creator encouraging and permitting the translation.
Especially that -unlike the ~3 year old email from Navel GP has (it'd be nice to see it screenshoted down by the way)-, Ryukishi's email was sent in April 2009.
So what exactly is different in Shuffle's case?
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Old 2009-07-20, 11:44   Link #42
DJLowrider
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As I understand it, the Mangagamer translation isn't just crappy. It's horrible. Really the only thing it has going for it is uncensored CGs and if that's anyone's primary reason for considering getting it, they would be better off just waiting until someone rips the screens and uploads them somewhere which we all know is going to happen anyway.

The bottom line is, if you have the Japanese version of the game just be patient. The patch is coming, come hell or high water. There's extensive talk that there may be a "beta" patch to help tide people over, or that the patch might get released in installments as they complete the different routes. All of this and more is posted on their forums, so just bookmark them and check in every so often.

Edit: I don't know that anything is different in this case, I'm merely repeating that which has been said both here and on GP's forums. You'd have to ask heklin and/or Dessert how certain they are that MG can't shut them down. Don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 2009-07-20, 12:22   Link #43
izmosmolnar
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As I understand it, the Mangagamer translation isn't just crappy. It's horrible.
I beg to differ. The company is a lot better translation-wise than Hirameki already, and Suika (released few months ago) for example was flowing completely naturally and elegantly. It's definitely far from horrible (If you want to play horrible translation you should try Giniro in english).
Their last title, Kira Kira was alright too, there are several typos, but if its translation quality distracted someone to immerse himself/herself and enjoy the game, then that someone still would have complained even if Shakespeare himself translates it for him/her.
In my opinion even though the early alpha demo version, or their very early releases (Edelweiss) was indeed quite bad, it's by no means a guarantee that their final Shuffle product will be horrible.
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Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-07-20 at 13:32. Reason: modified a bit, as I didn't wanted to appear offensive.
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Old 2009-07-20, 12:56   Link #44
Vexx
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@izmosmolnar: thanks for pointing out the reasons and reminding me of the recent "controversy" regarding the games in question. They still seem to have a lot of apologies for translation quality on their site though

My main query for the Animesuki gods is still going to be: "does a Dutch company licensing a product mean that Animesuki has to invoke its license ban policy?"

Dutch rules on copyright are significantly different than US rules AND its a Euro-region 2 zone - not a Region 1 arena. I started asking when an AS mod locked the translation patch thread. This is kind of a 'new situation' in my opinion. A parallel example might be a Region 3 licensing of an anime and would that invoke the Animesuki policy (which was written mostly with Region 1 licensing in mind). So far that sort of situation has been almost non-existent.
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Old 2009-07-20, 14:22   Link #45
zalas
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Mangagamer doesn't have any legal right to stop this project. Only Navel has that right, and they have already proffered their permission in written form.
That depends on what agreements Navel has with MangaGamer. If MangaGamer has an exclusivity agreement with Navel, which is usually the case with game localizations, then that means MangaGamer does have the legal right to stop the project. This also depends on the exact wording Navel used in their email. For example, if it's only a promise not to sue, then that statement has no bearing on whether MangaGamer can sue or not. In either case, the most surefire way to determine whether GamePatch's permission from Navel still holds is for GamePatch to send a friendly email to Navel to confirm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
You know... I'm going to ask the mods how legit these people are... they seem to have an amazing number of apologies and "o darn the copyright holder said no" news releases in their news section. Yet they appeared at Otakon 2009... o.O Also, being Dutch and operating under Dutch law I'm not clear how that affects AS.
They're fairly legitimate, considering the head of Circus was there with them at Anime Expo. This is the second year that they've been at conventions, and Circus has been coming to AX since 2006.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJLowRider
As I understand it, the Mangagamer translation isn't just crappy. It's horrible. Really the only thing it has going for it is uncensored CGs and if that's anyone's primary reason for considering getting it, they would be better off just waiting until someone rips the screens and uploads them somewhere which we all know is going to happen anyway.
Are you talking about the SHUFFLE! translation specifically? There were claims that someone saw an alpha version at Anime Expo, but I didn't see it, and I visited the booth all four days to try to find it. Furthermore, according to this post on the official MangaGamer forums, translation checking was done on the 18th, which was way after Anime Expo. That post also claims that the translation quality was a tad bit better than KIRAKIRA, which was viewed by people as having acceptable quality translations. Currently, it looks like there's a debate on the amount of honorifics and Japanese terms to employ in the translation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
My main query for the Animesuki gods is still going to be: "does a Dutch company licensing a product mean that Animesuki has to invoke its license ban policy?"

Dutch rules on copyright are significantly different than US rules AND its a Euro-region 2 zone - not a Region 1 arena. I started asking when an AS mod locked the translation patch thread. This is kind of a 'new situation' in my opinion. A parallel example might be a Region 3 licensing of an anime and would that invoke the Animesuki policy (which was written mostly with Region 1 licensing in mind). So far that sort of situation has been almost non-existent.
Well, what did AnimeSuki decide to do with the Saikano OVA when it was discovered that the Japanese release had subtitles? Same thing for Maikaze. I wonder if the Odex Love Hina deal predates AnimeSuki... Furthermore, what does DVD regions have to do with online distribution of eroge? XD It's not like MangaGamer won't sell to people in the US. I think the only market they're refusing to sell to is the Japanese market, as their website isn't accessible to people in Japan.
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Old 2009-07-20, 14:34   Link #46
Vexx
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I simply use the region code numbers as a convenient shorthand way to describe the world's "commerce regions". A license in a European country does not necessarily have any impact on what a US or Canadian entity decides to do. I don't see the words "exclusive license" being used anywhere.

If Navel did give MG "worldwide exclusive license" outside of Japan -- then it will be interesting to observe what happens next. Personally, I *bought* the Japanese version many years ago and have no plans to purchase the MG version whether or not a patch is available. Therefore, a C&D against the patch only annoys people in my situation and is unlikely to make me a customer of *any* of MG's products if they take that route.
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Old 2009-07-22, 22:46   Link #47
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The MangaGamer license is, indeed, a worldwide license to release the game in English and distribute it everywhere*, and (as with their previous releases) is done in cooperation with the Japanese rights holder. I remember them making a statement that their being operated out of Europe had more to do with legal considerations than anything else. They're definitely "legit", though, and not just a regional distributor of some sort.

(* There may be a few countries they're not allowed to export to -- I'm not sure -- but these would be exceptions rather than rules.)

The issues they've had with translation quality have mostly been due to very small budgets and rushing to get product out the door (since they otherwise have no revenue). Because they're being sold through a partnership with the Japanese publishers, they don't have to worry about licensing fees, but as of AX they were still in the red. Not trying to say that's an excuse, but that's what has been revealed about the situation so far (they've explained that it's basically a pet project between individuals from some of the Japanese publishers doing this in their spare time).

Anyway, all this being said, to the issue of the licensing policy. I've asked about this sort of thing before, and the answer is that the normal licensing policy applies. The only time fansubs of any sort can be discussed and listed is when the product is not licensed for English distribution in the major target markets. I realize this is inconvenient for people -- like myself! -- who purchased the game already, and would have liked a patch. But from a policy standpoint for the forum, this opens a whole new can of worms that we can't really deal with. I could list a whole bunch of situations where it would not be any less unethical to continue discussing/listing fan translations compared to current fansub listing policy. But, at the end of the day, the policy isn't really based on "relative ethics", but more on a "limited exception". The admins have told me that they don't really want to open the whole debate, so that's why I closed the other thread, and would discourage people from discussing on-going fan translation efforts here going forward.


Now, on an entirely personal note (I really want to stress that, because it's virtually impossible to make personal statements anymore with this label under my nickname)... I just want to say that I have my doubts about how many people have actually really purchased/imported the game for real so would truly be inconvenienced by this. (I know you did, Vexx, and there are a few others that I know for sure did.) I only say this because I used to believe, for whatever reason, that purchasing games was more common than it actually is. If people really have paid for the game already, then I can at least understand why they wouldn't want to pay for the game again. But I'm completely convinced that most of the people clamouring for this patch are just people who pirated the game anyway. It makes me uncomfortable seeing people using the promised fan translations as a way of weaseling out of paying for the licensed game (and coming up with every other excuse in the book to go with it), since that will hurt the already-extremely small sales they do have and lower their available budget for future works (which may not have fan translations). Plus, it also hurts the ethical argument that I'd like to try to make that there's a place for patches after a game is licensed if people actually purchase the game. I'm just pretty disappointed in seeing so many people who are supposedly big eroge fans just going from one pirated work to the next without ever investing anything in the hobby. They even have the gall to brag about all the games they've played on forums and on their blogs, but they haven't once given anything back, and they still won't do it even when the opportunity presents itself. I find it somewhat shameful, to be honest... Anyway, </rant>
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Old 2009-07-24, 10:09   Link #48
Vexx
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
(explanation of mangagamers snipped)
Now, on an entirely personal note (I really want to stress that, because it's virtually impossible to make personal statements anymore with this label under my nickname)... I just want to say that I have my doubts about how many people have actually really purchased/imported the game for real so would truly be inconvenienced by this. (I know you did, Vexx, and there are a few others that I know for sure did.) I only say this because I used to believe, for whatever reason, that purchasing games was more common than it actually is. If people really have paid for the game already, then I can at least understand why they wouldn't want to pay for the game again. But I'm completely convinced that most of the people clamouring for this patch are just people who pirated the game anyway. It makes me uncomfortable seeing people using the promised fan translations as a way of weaseling out of paying for the licensed game (and coming up with every other excuse in the book to go with it), since that will hurt the already-extremely small sales they do have and lower their available budget for future works (which may not have fan translations). Plus, it also hurts the ethical argument that I'd like to try to make that there's a place for patches after a game is licensed if people actually purchase the game. I'm just pretty disappointed in seeing so many people who are supposedly big eroge fans just going from one pirated work to the next without ever investing anything in the hobby. They even have the gall to brag about all the games they've played on forums and on their blogs, but they haven't once given anything back, and they still won't do it even when the opportunity presents itself. I find it somewhat shameful, to be honest... Anyway, </rant>
Completely with you on that rant. Supplements/patches to play a game I've purchased I have no ethical concerns about --- but simply leeching a game with no consideration for the creator is piss poor behavior and an insult to legitimate fans. Heklin (the guy working on this "Navel informally approved" patch) is pretty adamant that people *buy* the game -- he has repeatedly threatened to stop the project if he can't figure out how to restrict distribution to those who *purchased* the japanese game.

Thanks for the clarifications on MangaGamer (and to others who provided data). I wonder if Heklin might work something out with MangaGamer to partner and sell his patch as a service to those who own the game.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-08-03 at 11:04.
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Old 2009-07-31, 06:15   Link #49
izmosmolnar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangagamer News
31 Jul 2009 The selling price of "SHUFFLE!", releasing on August 15,
has been set to 36.95 euros in order for it to be enjoyed by more customers. Please look forward to the release date of "SHUFFLE!"
So Mangagamer reduced the price from 50 Euros, and the price will be 37 Euro instead (about ~52$).
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Old 2009-08-01, 16:06   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Now, on an entirely personal note (I really want to stress that, because it's virtually impossible to make personal statements anymore with this label under my nickname)... I just want to say that I have my doubts about how many people have actually really purchased/imported the game for real so would truly be inconvenienced by this. (I know you did, Vexx, and there are a few others that I know for sure did.) I only say this because I used to believe, for whatever reason, that purchasing games was more common than it actually is. If people really have paid for the game already, then I can at least understand why they wouldn't want to pay for the game again. But I'm completely convinced that most of the people clamouring for this patch are just people who pirated the game anyway. It makes me uncomfortable seeing people using the promised fan translations as a way of weaseling out of paying for the licensed game (and coming up with every other excuse in the book to go with it), since that will hurt the already-extremely small sales they do have and lower their available budget for future works (which may not have fan translations). Plus, it also hurts the ethical argument that I'd like to try to make that there's a place for patches after a game is licensed if people actually purchase the game. I'm just pretty disappointed in seeing so many people who are supposedly big eroge fans just going from one pirated work to the next without ever investing anything in the hobby. They even have the gall to brag about all the games they've played on forums and on their blogs, but they haven't once given anything back, and they still won't do it even when the opportunity presents itself. I find it somewhat shameful, to be honest... Anyway, </rant>
I'm one of the ones who buys his games. I have almost two dozen games I've bought through jlist, as well as a few untranslated games I've bought from Japan. I shudder to think of how much I have spent on this stuff over the past few years.
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Old 2009-08-14, 19:45   Link #51
NeonShade
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Shuffle! Visual Novel Released in English

Just thought I would let everyone know... Itís exactly what the title says. For any fans of the Shuffle! Anime/Manga this is the source material, fully translated in its original Visual Novel format. For anyone unfamiliar with Visual Novels they are a form of media that play like a game and read like a novel. Text runs across the screen with backgrounds, character sprites and music running behind it. Itís a format that conveys the detail of a written work while also adding more feeling and emotion in the form of pictures and music. Iíve played the game myself and enjoyed it a lot. If anyoneís interested you can buy the game at http://www.mangagamer.com/main/Title...C53513/shuffle .

It's distributed through a short download that then runs on your PC. If you haven't tried a Visual Novel before this is a must. It became my favorite form of media after reading some great stuff like this. The shame is that these games rarely get translated so Please offer your support in hopes that more Visual Novel games may be translated in the future!
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Old 2009-08-15, 00:22   Link #52
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So, the game came out earlier today on MangaGamer, and I decided to buy it. In terms of a first impression... well, the translation seems not too bad at first glance, but it could use a bit more editing (or rather, some more aggressive editing/rewriting). For example, we have "Ladies are eternal mystery for us men" and "It doesn't surprise me of the fact that this man in front of me is a Devil". A more subtle one later on is "She is our world history instructor and the homeroom teacher at Verbena Academy" -- no, she's "our world history instructor and homeroom teacher", not "the" homeroom teacher... I also liked "jumping up and down the stairs 30 laps". And what does "just hang out and go home" mean? A "pack of milk"? Do we really mean "a different strain"? (Isn't there a better term?) Or "melting inside of my cell"?

They sort of blew Itsuki's comeback when Rin does his stand-in for Kaede at the class entrance, though. They have "Rin... Get out of my face...", but the actual line is more like "Rin... welcome to my bosom..." delivered in ultra-sarcastic tone, which is followed by Rin's narration "Rin welcomes with his tight hug as usual". I sort of wonder how that edit came to be? It's like someone read the script without listening to the audio, and thought "that must be an error" and corrected it to what they thought would make more sense in the apparent context, and in the process kind of ruined the joke. There's just nothing at all about that line in Japanese that's near "get out of my face"; they made it up.

Anyway, I'm giving it a hard time (once an editor, always an editor...), but I guess it's about the level of an average scanlation? It doesn't look like it was written or edited by a native English speaker (and/or someone with much time or drive to do extensive rewrites). There aren't many typos, but it just doesn't always sound very natural. Overall, I guess I'd give the script maybe a 7/10 from what I've played so far?

The only other thing is that I'm not a big fan of the font... I wish they had given an option to change it, but no big deal.

Anyway, will keep working my way through it. It's passable, but by no means professional; it probably needs about 4 months of re-writes from a merciless and obsessed editor to polish it up (and I doubt they pay enough to hire that sort of person).

Edit: Wanted to add in the plus column, they do have some translation notes in the script and in a file that comes included with the game. These cover the basic Japanese honorifics and some specific terms used in the game. That's a nice touch.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-08-15 at 01:53. Reason: added positive note
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Old 2009-08-15, 00:40   Link #53
izmosmolnar
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Today Mangagamer indeed started selling Shuffle, so after all those long years waiting on the game to finally be in english is over.
From what I've heard from those who tried it, the translation is decent, and it's on the same level translation-wise as the completely fine Kira Kira. They kept the honorifics of course, and they occasionally use translation-notes for those (+ a few other untranslatable words).
The game is uncensored, and it's fully voiced. Additionally the voice actors are the same as the anime. Mangagamer's price for the game is €36.95, which is even cheaper than the japanese version through retails like amazon.jp. Currently they only offer a download only version.
You can buy it from here.
Edit: And here's the novelnews article about the release.
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Old 2009-08-15, 06:09   Link #54
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Is it normal to feel a bit let down that heklin didnt manage to come out with his version before MG? Heh...
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Old 2009-08-15, 07:57   Link #55
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Unfortunately, Manga Gamer only does downloads with DRM (unless that changed recently), and the translations are often a bit dodgy.
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Old 2009-08-15, 09:38   Link #56
Keroko
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and the translations are often a bit dodgy.
I've heard the quality of their translations increased drastically after their initial releases.
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Old 2009-08-15, 12:57   Link #57
izmosmolnar
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No, their translation is not dodgy since like 3-4 titles ago, and it keeps getting better and better. I really wish people would stop parroting that. Here's the encubed coverage about the release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by encubed
Overall, the quality of the script isn’t too bad and is comparable to commercial subtitles for anime.
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Old 2009-08-15, 23:25   Link #58
Yamada
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Cool news. I've always wanted to give a visual novel a try (I played Neon Evangelion's Girlfriend of Steel back in the day, and thought it was pretty neat), but there doesn't seem to be many fan-translations of them. There's no way I'd be able to follow the storyline if it was entirely in Japanese, so I'm glad to hear there's an official English release available for purchase. Even if the translation is a little sketchy at times, it's not like I'll notice anyway. This has been added to my 'to buy' list!
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Old 2009-08-16, 02:14   Link #59
DragoonKain3
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Man, if I'm going to buy Shuffle, I'm also compelled to buy KiraKira and Suika, since all these has the childhood friend heroine (I already got Da Capo mind you). But converting that to CAN$, that's around 200 bucks for me. Which is to say, a lot of money... and I'm not even getting my money's worth, since I'd only be playing the childhood friend's route. ^^;

If anyone has a buy 1 get 1 free coupon, I'd get all three in a heartbeat (so I buy 2 at normal price and get the other free). Anyone have one they can spare?



BTW, lol@Kaede's description of a "razor-sharp" mind.
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Old 2009-08-16, 13:50   Link #60
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No one ever told me their translations got better. Now I know. Thanks for the info.
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