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Old 2009-08-09, 23:25   Link #1381
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
That's another Cagalli weakness. Whenever anybody voices displeasure about Orb or Uzumi's ideals she just kinda freezes up and stares. As if the idea of someone not being happy with them was something uncomprehendable to her.
Do you have any examples?

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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
You challenge her security and experience, i challenge her motivation. She didn't explore the other options she could have done and simply chose the easiest, I personally call on her motivation, you on something else. It's really a matter of opinion.
But why would you pin it down to motivation? Cagalli didn't choose the easiest path, since that would have meant never taking a stand at all. And it's hardly unheard of to acede to political pressure, even to the point of doing things one hates (like marrying Yuna).

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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Because generally people think to save the lives of their citizens above all else. And Uzumi blew up half the island, and left his people to a occupation which kills Coordinators. I would bet most of the citizens would be upset. Then again this IS Gundam. Logic doesn't always apply.
The logic in this case is fine. Leader who think to save the lives of their citizens above all else are poor leaders. Instead, what they first have to think of is the survival of their nation. Hence, good leaders will often make decisions that will lead to their people dying as long as it's a better course for their country than the alternatives. Such leaders are often well respected especially if this means defending their nation against foreign aggression. That's true even if the defense fails. Look at Mannerheim - while he wasn't the leader of Finland (at the beginning), he held enormous political power. He fought in two hopeless wars, which ended up costing many Finnish lives, but it maintained Finland's independence. To this day, he's absolutely revered in Finland. In fact, it's almost never unpopular to resist foreign aggression; not even when the consequences for doing so are severe.
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Old 2009-08-10, 04:22   Link #1382
Neku
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
We've only seen Lacus' inner thought some 3 times in both Seed and Destiny, so who's to say that there isn't a lot of ambition underneath that pink hair? It's also quite obvious that she thinks a great deal about the wider world, and that she has no problems from keeping secrets from Kira (he didn't even know about Strike Freedom's existence until just before he saw it).
While I agree that there are many ways to developing Lacus's character, I would still think that if it wasn't Kira's persistence to mobilize Freedom again, she wouldn't care about what's happening outside, and not even when a team is sent to assassinate here.

Though if the directors want, they could always say that Lacus sees things in a different light after Meer's death. But I really doubt such development would happen although it would be helluva interesting

Quote:
Oh, and an evil Lacus wouldn't be anything like Lelouch outside of a few very broad strokes.
No, I don't mean their ways and character. I meant being evil, but still the protagonist of the movie + perhaps, one that manipulates and plays everyone out to achieve their objective.

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Originally Posted by Foreshadow
Because generally people think to save the lives of their citizens above all else. And Uzumi blew up half the island, and left his people to a occupation which kills Coordinators. I would bet most of the citizens would be upset. Then again this IS Gundam. Logic doesn't always apply.
He did call orders for evacuation. Let's just say that Uzumi was trying to save everyone, and at the same time, refusing to let Orb succumb to any sides. I don't think citizens were upset either. Otherwise, they would be protesting Cagalli's status as Chief Representative.

Also, I wouldn't think that Cagalli did not have motivation.
Motivation isn't the case here. It's not like she didn't try to have her stand. She was inexperienced and technically, overpowered. A leader at such a young age would be asked to listen to her elders etc She would have to succumb.

A scene where she tried to voice her opposition was shown. But Yuuna scolded her instead, and that's where her lack of experience and helplessness dominated her.
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Old 2009-08-10, 08:46   Link #1383
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
But why would you pin it down to motivation? Cagalli didn't choose the easiest path, since that would have meant never taking a stand at all. And it's hardly unheard of to acede to political pressure, even to the point of doing things one hates (like marrying Yuna).
She was obligated by her Post to take a stand. My Opinion on her stand however, was that she didn't explore all possible situations and resigned herself to a "woe is me" type of attitude, and buckling after the general opinion was against her. Had she been motivated for the true good of the country, she would have explored all possibilities and would have been been kicking/screaming to go down the isle with Yuna and repeatedly try to hammer out a compromise with the council. Again, I'm going to stress this is totally opinionated, and how I view the situation.

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-08-10 at 16:35.
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Old 2009-08-10, 16:22   Link #1384
4Tran
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For me, motivation is a combination of dedication to the task and the willingness to work hard. Cagalli obviously has both of these in spades, so it's a little curious to attribute her ineffectiveness to a lack of motivation.

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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
I would still think that if it wasn't Kira's persistence to mobilize Freedom again, she wouldn't care about what's happening outside, and not even when a team is sent to assassinate here.
I don't think that this is true in the slightest. Lacus is extremely prone to not sharing her true feelings to anyone, and this is probably yet another example of her holding back. Her primary exhibited concern was worrying about what going back into the cockpit would do for Kira - and I agree that this was the closest concern to her heart. However, she's a multi-faceted character and she undoubtedly was simultaneously thinking of the different responses they could try even if Kira refused the call.

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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Though if the directors want, they could always say that Lacus sees things in a different light after Meer's death. But I really doubt such development would happen although it would be helluva interesting
There are about a million reasons why the creators would never go with this idea (a fan revolt being the chief one), but you've got to admit that it'd be awfully cool and fun .

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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
No, I don't mean their ways and character. I meant being evil, but still the protagonist of the movie + perhaps, one that manipulates and plays everyone out to achieve their objective.
Even that's questionable since Sunrise tries awfully hard to portray Lelouch as the good guy.

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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Also, I wouldn't think that Cagalli did not have motivation.
Motivation isn't the case here. It's not like she didn't try to have her stand. She was inexperienced and technically, overpowered. A leader at such a young age would be asked to listen to her elders etc She would have to succumb.

A scene where she tried to voice her opposition was shown. But Yuuna scolded her instead, and that's where her lack of experience and helplessness dominated her.
That's pretty much my reasoning. We know all too well about Cagalli's inexperience and naivete and all, so why is there a need to attribute yet another factor for her poor decision-making?
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Old 2009-08-11, 03:22   Link #1385
Neku
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
I don't think that this is true in the slightest. Lacus is extremely prone to not sharing her true feelings to anyone, and this is probably yet another example of her holding back. Her primary exhibited concern was worrying about what going back into the cockpit would do for Kira - and I agree that this was the closest concern to her heart. However, she's a multi-faceted character and she undoubtedly was simultaneously thinking of the different responses they could try even if Kira refused the call.
Woops. Mistake on my part. I meant to say Lacus didn't really care... or rather, she cared more about Kira wanting to mobilize Freedom again rather than them being unsafe.

Anyways, I very much agree that Lacus could be thinking of numerous things at the same time since that's what make her character so interesting.. she's unpredictable!

But I still think that to her, Kira comes first. She may have held Strike Freedom as a secret from even Kira (although Kira doesn't seem surprised to see it), but there's no doubt that it was created for him, perhaps because she wants to prepare Kira yet again for what he wants to do.
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Old 2009-08-14, 00:21   Link #1386
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With that talk reminds me of GDW2 game which where in if your Kira and Lacus appears as an ally then engineering units appear and Lacus would have 2nd thoughts and she'll become an enemy unit if you don't destroy the engineering team. She's easily influenced.
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Old 2009-08-14, 05:48   Link #1387
Sir Dearka
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4Tran, respect for your line of argumentation and persistency in fighting off SEED-haters.
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Old 2009-08-15, 04:44   Link #1388
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I just watched the Special Edition DVD of Gundam Seed Destiny, and I have to say...

The Special Edition is much better than the original show, so much so, in fact, that I am putting Destiny back on my list of top 10 favourite Gundam series.

Especially on the Battle of Messiah, Kira was way more godly...
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Old 2009-08-15, 08:28   Link #1389
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gundam designs were great in seed but i hated the idea of mass produceing gundams like orb did which made the gundams seem less unique or less special. Fight scenes were cool at first but then they kept reuseing scenes which made things predictable in the fights.
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Old 2009-08-15, 19:05   Link #1390
monster
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
...so much so, in fact, that I am putting Destiny back on my list of top 10 favourite Gundam series.
There's only been about 11 or 12 gundam series....So...
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Old 2009-08-16, 02:29   Link #1391
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
There's only been about 11 or 12 gundam series....So...
Loll, you saw through my trick!

Damn...

Hahaha, no, actually, I count side stories and OVAs as part of the series too.. so..

There are about 27 of those.

@ GundamMeisterLockon

What the hell are you talking about..? ORB never mass-produced Gundams.

Hell, they can't even mass produce enough Murasames, hwo the hell can they make Gundams..
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Old 2009-08-16, 03:02   Link #1392
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Hell, they can't even mass produce enough Murasames, hwo the hell can they make Gundams..
They've made at least... five by my count. Red, Blue, Gold, and Green Frames, and the Akatsuki.
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Old 2009-08-16, 04:21   Link #1393
bladeofdarkness
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the akatsuki is a gundam
but are the others you just named ones ?
arent they just remodeled astrey units ?
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Old 2009-08-16, 04:51   Link #1394
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the akatsuki is a gundam
but are the others you just named ones ?
arent they just remodeled astrey units ?
Red, Blue, Gold, and Green Frames are confirmed to be Gundams, as they are called by all official sources to be Gundam. "Gundam Astray Red Frame", "Gundam Astray Blue Frame," etc.
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Old 2009-08-16, 06:21   Link #1395
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you win then
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Old 2009-08-16, 07:37   Link #1396
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
I just watched the Special Edition DVD of Gundam Seed Destiny, and I have to say...

The Special Edition is much better than the original show, so much so, in fact, that I am putting Destiny back on my list of top 10 favourite Gundam series.

Especially on the Battle of Messiah, Kira was way more godly...
Destiny shines after distillation. Try the "The Edge" manga.
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Old 2009-08-16, 09:41   Link #1397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamMeisterLockon View Post
gundam designs were great in seed but i hated the idea of mass produceing gundams like orb did which made the gundams seem less unique or less special. Fight scenes were cool at first but then they kept reuseing scenes which made things predictable in the fights.
I don't think they really mass produced the Gundams, but I do agree that the abundance of Gundams really betrayed the internal logic of both SEED and DESTINY.

It's kind of a small problem in the grand scheme of things (it's certainly one of the least of DESTINY's issues ), but it annoyed me too. Fukuda could have made it a less obvious that he was just trying to make more models.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:41   Link #1398
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
4Tran, respect for your line of argumentation and persistency in fighting off SEED-haters.
Personally, I think that people can dislike even the best of shows; and as Destiny is hardly one of these, it's quite normal for it to be disliked. However, there's a difference between having reasonable justifications for disliking it and unreasonable ones. And it's really only the latter that I have a beef with.

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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
I just watched the Special Edition DVD of Gundam Seed Destiny, and I have to say...

The Special Edition is much better than the original show, so much so, in fact, that I am putting Destiny back on my list of top 10 favourite Gundam series.

Especially on the Battle of Messiah, Kira was way more godly...
It's really too bad that the Special Edition cuts out so many of my favorite parts. One of these days I'll have to rewatch the show, but it'll probably have to be the TV version.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
They've made at least... five by my count. Red, Blue, Gold, and Green Frames, and the Akatsuki.
It should be noted that, of these, only Akatsuki is in Destiny - and Akatsuki isn't even necessarily a Gundam.

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I don't think they really mass produced the Gundams, but I do agree that the abundance of Gundams really betrayed the internal logic of both SEED and DESTINY.
What internal logic? In-universe, "Gundam" is just a term that a few characters use to describe certain mobile suits. How would the number of units these characters include with this moniker make any difference?
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:48   Link #1399
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It should be noted that, of these, only Akatsuki is in Destiny - and Akatsuki isn't even necessarily a Gundam.
From an aesthetic standpoint, sure, it doesn't look quite like a Gundam, but we do know that it contains one of the main features of a Gundam in the SEED series: a G.U.N.D.A.M. operating system.

Admittedly, though, peopled debate the Gundam status of the Akatsuki all the time. Last I checked it was considered by most to be a Gundam.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:53   Link #1400
4Tran
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From an aesthetic standpoint, sure, it doesn't look quite like a Gundam, but we do know that it contains one of the main features of a Gundam in the SEED series: a G.U.N.D.A.M. operating system.
The presence of the OS isn't what makes a Seed Gundam a Gundam. It's Bandai labeling a mobile suit one that does that. If that wasn't the case, then there would be a lot more Gundams in the Seed universe. This is conceptually the same as to whether certain mobile suits are considered Gundams or not in Gundam 00, for example.
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